How often had Protestants converted people at the tip of the Sword?

[bengal_fan]

Sometimes, I think we agree way more than we should. Perhaps you are too Catholic for your own good.

quick sidenote that i hope all my catholic brothers and sisters will be proud of me for.

yesterday, i was on the college campus and there was a “hell and damnation” preacher in the quad yelling at a group of students. i stood and listened for a while. then i decided to step in. he kept quoting verses but forgetting the verses before and after the ones he was quoting. i don’t think he expected some one to be there who knew the verses before and after his quotes because i began to question him to reconcile his interpretation within the context of the verses. then, one of the students asked him why he only uses the king james version of the bible. he said it was because it was the only inspired version. so i said, “you mean that for 1600 years the church was without an inspired version of the bible?” to that he replied that it was the only inspired english version. so i asked him if it was okay for me to read the latin vulgate (which i do sometimes as i love latin) and he had no idea what i was talking about. so i let him know that some portions of his bible were translated from the vulgate (the pieces they were missing). he was silent (which in and of itself was a miracle). some one then asked him what he thought of catholics and he said they weren’t Christians and were going to hell. i then asked him where he thinks he got his bible from. again… silence. it was fun, but then i had to run. i’m sure i’ll see him again.

his name is micah, pray for him if you get the chance.

 

[bengal_fan]

I do not consider Protestants my adversaries.

James Carroll is very far from being a good journalist. He commonly ignores facts that do not agree with his anti-Catholic agenda. I live in Boston and read his opinion pieces in the Globe regularly. They are everything but fair and balanced.

that’s because those are opinion pieces. there is a difference between a journalistic piece and an opinion piece. although, the research ethics apply equally to both and he does his homework.

 

[Righteousone]

quick sidenote that i hope all my catholic brothers and sisters will be proud of me for.

yesterday, i was on the college campus and there was a “hell and damnation” preacher in the quad yelling at a group of students. i stood and listened for a while. then i decided to step in. he kept quoting verses but forgetting the verses before and after the ones he was quoting. i don’t think he expected some one to be there who knew the verses before and after his quotes because i began to question him to reconcile his interpretation within the context of the verses. then, one of the students asked him why he only uses the king james version of the bible. he said it was because it was the only inspired version. so i said, “you mean that for 1600 years the church was without an inspired version of the bible?” to that he replied that it was the only inspired english version. so i asked him if it was okay for me to read the latin vulgate (which i do sometimes as i love latin) and he had no idea what i was talking about. so i let him know that some portions of his bible were translated from the vulgate (the pieces they were missing). he was silent (which in and of itself was a miracle). some one then asked him what he thought of catholics and he said they weren’t Christians and were going to hell. i then asked him where he thinks he got his bible from. again… silence. it was fun, but then i had to run. i’m sure i’ll see him again.

his name is micah, pray for him if you get the chance.

Sounds like a Baptist to me…

 

[rtconstant]

Well the forceful conversions were quite common (crusades, inquisition, conquistas). But not really the trickery, as the only trickery i know was the conversion of the Mexicans through the bogus ‘miracle of lourdes’. That can be quite debatable but even some Catholics argue that it was fake. And without objective evidences that supernatural miracles do happen, it all the more appears to be a catholic trick.

You keep saying that forced conversions were quite common but you seem opposed to actually backing that up. Further you demonstrate a lack of understanding of the vague evidences that you do mention.

The Inquisition had nothing to do with conversions, nor did the Crusades. As to OLoG this was a vision seen by a native and then propagated and believed by native peoples. If it was a trick they did it to themselves. Although it’s really a moot point. At best this argument can be simply chalked up to your opinion.

 

[bengal_fan]

So you do agree that regardless of the veracity of the book or other beliefs of actions of Catholics. These are Popes\Priests doing evil in the name of the Church but not supported by Church teaching.
So who cares what these people did, even if it is fiction or possibly true, they were not actually following Catholic teaching.

It is against Catholic teaching to forcibly convert anyone, so lets assume someone did…
I certainly agree with you then that doing evil is wrong but the Catholic Church has never taught to do evil, so therefore you agree with the Catholic Church.
Unless you support that it is ok to do evil, the Catholic Church condemns that.
The only way to disagree with the Catholic Church is to endore evil.

If you disagree feel free to PM me,
Scylla

no need to pm you as this is on topic. i would say the church has not taught evil was “okay”. however, when popes, bishops, priests (and lay people) acting in the name of the church either explicitly or implicitly give permission to do evil, it reflects poorly on the catholic church.
example: the church does not teach that it is okay to molest children. it actually would teach the opposite of that. but many priests did it and many bishops helps cover it up which allowed it to go on far longer and for more children to be victimized. the church as an organization (not as a spiritual being) has a responsibility in this evil.
i don’t want to start a molestation thread but i thought it a good modern day example.

 

[Genesis315]

Well the forceful conversions were quite common (crusades, inquisition, conquistas).

You misunderstand the purpose of these actions–none were for conversions–especially in the case of the inquisitions, which only had jurisdiction over professing Catholics, not professing Jews, Muslims, pagans, etc.

Here is a papal decree from the height of Crusade time (1200s) that specifically says forced conversions are not valid:
Bl. Gregory X:

We decree moreover that no Christian shall compel them or any one of their group to come to baptism unwillingly. But if any one of them shall take refuge of his own accord with Christians, because of conviction, then, after his intention will have been manifest, he shall be made a Christian without any intrigue. For, indeed, that person who is known to have come to Christian baptism not freely, but unwillingly, is not believed to posses the Christian faith.

papalencyclicals.net/Greg10/g10jprot.htm

The crusades were to protect pilgrims and capture land, not to force conversions. The same with the conquistas. Yes, enemy soldiers weren’t killed if they converted, but this was not conversion by the sword, but rather like a soldier in any war not being killed by the other side if they joined that side–but even this was extremely rare.

But not really the trickery, as the only trickery i know was the conversion of the Mexicans through the bogus ‘miracle of lourdes’. That can be quite debatable but even some Catholics argue that it was fake. And without objective evidences that supernatural miracles do happen, it all the more appears to be a catholic trick.

First of all, I think you mean the tilma of Guadalupe. Second, so people doubt? People also doubt the existence of God, the resurrection of Christ, and countless miracles. There’s plenty of objective evidence of miracles out there if you really want to find it. The leadership Catholic Church is very, very particular about claiming something to be miracle unless there is such evidence.

 

[ralphinal]

quick sidenote that i hope all my catholic brothers and sisters will be proud of me for.

yesterday, i was on the college campus and there was a “hell and damnation” preacher in the quad yelling at a group of students. i stood and listened for a while. then i decided to step in. he kept quoting verses but forgetting the verses before and after the ones he was quoting. i don’t think he expected some one to be there who knew the verses before and after his quotes because i began to question him to reconcile his interpretation within the context of the verses. then, one of the students asked him why he only uses the king james version of the bible. he said it was because it was the only inspired version. so i said, “you mean that for 1600 years the church was without an inspired version of the bible?” to that he replied that it was the only inspired english version. so i asked him if it was okay for me to read the latin vulgate (which i do sometimes as i love latin) and he had no idea what i was talking about. so i let him know that some portions of his bible were translated from the vulgate (the pieces they were missing). he was silent (which in and of itself was a miracle). some one then asked him what he thought of catholics and he said they weren’t Christians and were going to hell. i then asked him where he thinks he got his bible from. again… silence. it was fun, but then i had to run. i’m sure i’ll see him again.

his name is micah, pray for him if you get the chance.

I will pray for him. Bengal, I am proud of you for many things. I am thankful for the things that I have learned from you on this site. I am proud that you defend the faith you have in Christ while making sure others know the truth about those who believe differently. You are honest and a genuine seeker of the truth and as such, you are a great example of a man of God.

 

[bengal_fan]

Even the Blessed Mother has said “The muslim faith will convert to Catholicism”.

the muslim faith didn’t exist when mary was on earth and the church has never said that she has officially appeared.

 

[bengal_fan]

I will pray for him. Bengal, I am proud of you for many things. I am thankful for the things that I have learned from you on this site. I am proud that you defend the faith you have in Christ while making sure others know the truth about those who believe differently. You are honest and a genuine seeker of the truth and as such, you are a great example of a man of God.

thank you for such a high compliment. i get dragged down sometimes (or i lower myself) but i do try to at least understand those i might not agree with.

 

[AgnosTheist]

The Inquisition had nothing to do with conversions, nor did the Crusades.

denials, denials. ever heard of the word ‘converso’? look it up.

Besides, everyone here acknowledges that the Inquisition’s main objective was to fight heresy. That by itself was persuasion into old beliefs. How often was such persuasions peaceful & respectful? Zero percent? Without such violent persuasions the catholic church would have been as fragmented as the protestants today, eh?

 

[MH84]

Even the Blessed Mother has said “The muslim faith will convert to Catholicism”.

Where can I find this statement? Is it documented?

 

[pismopal]

well, it happened. if you familiarized yourself with the history you would know that it took place. whether it was logical or not doesn’t enter into it.

Bengal please…you assume I know nothing about history because of what? Why don’t you familiarize yourself with not assuming facts not in evidence? My point was and is…how do you force someone to become a Christian or most especially a Catholic? You can point a gun at someone and make them say words but as distasteful as that might be it does not and will not make them a Christian or Jew. A well known news man was recently kidnapped and was subjected to a “forced conversion”. I’m betting he is not running around shouting “allahu achbar”. There is no such thing as a forced conversion IMO. Even some people who enter into the experience with their eyes wide open struggle with it.
Now you are obviously very brilliant Bengal…please make a case that these victims of a “forced conversion” were actually converted. Embarrassed and humiliated by cruel, ignorant humans but not converted.

 

[Genesis315]

the church has never said that she has officially appeared.

Well, that’s not really true. The fact that Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe and other apparitions have memorials on the official liturgical calendar makes it a pretty official statement that she has.

 

[Righteousone]

the muslim faith didn’t exist when mary was on earth and the church has never said that she has officially appeared.

Huh? All of The Blessed Mother’s apparitions (which you are not at all familiar with), have been in the past few centuries. Fatima was in 1932 I believe. The church has recognized most of her apparitions. I refuse to talk to you about this if you are not already learned in this area.

 

[Righteousone]

Where can I find this statement? Is it documented?

The book called “Thunder of Justice”.

 

[ralphinal]

The Church teaches that you do not have to accept anything from private revelation. this includes any and all apparitions of the Blessed Virgin. You must accept public revelation (the Bible, for example). I can choose to accept the messages from Fatima or Lourdes, but I can ignore them with no threat to my salvation. These are not binding on anyone but the person to whom the revelation was made.

 

[bengal_fan]

Bengal please…you assume I know nothing about history because of what? Why don’t you familiarize yourself with not assuming facts not in evidence? My point was and is…how do you force someone to become a Christian or most especially a Catholic? You can point a gun at someone and make them say words but as distasteful as that might be it does not and will not make them a Christian or Jew. A well known news man was recently kidnapped and was subjected to a “forced conversion”. I’m betting he is not running around shouting “allahu achbar”. There is no such thing as a forced conversion IMO. Even some people who enter into the experience with their eyes wide open struggle with it.
Now you are obviously very brilliant Bengal…please make a case that these victims of a “forced conversion” were actually converted. Embarrassed and humiliated by cruel, ignorant humans but not converted.

sorry, i did not mean to assume.
i understand what you are saying about conversions but we are both operating from a 21st century mindset, not a middle ages one. it’s tough to find evidence of a forced conversion “sticking” but it’s easy to find evidence of people running from what they anticipated would be forced conversions.

 

[scylla]

no need to pm you as this is on topic. i would say the church has not taught evil was “okay”. however, when popes, bishops, priests (and lay people) acting in the name of the church either explicitly or implicitly give permission to do evil, it reflects poorly on the catholic church.
example: the church does not teach that it is okay to molest children. it actually would teach the opposite of that. but many priests did it and many bishops helps cover it up which allowed it to go on far longer and for more children to be victimized. the church as an organization (not as a spiritual being) has a responsibility in this evil.
i don’t want to start a molestation thread but i thought it a good modern day example.

People have always acted in the name of the Church causing scandal and leading people astray. This does continue today. Heck I would be lucky if I found 10 truly faithful Bishops here in the United States. That just shows we have crummy people and we have had them and we still do. We always have people attacking the organization from within and from outside.

I respect the office of my Bishop even though I think he is doing a terrible job, is a disgrace to his office and to Catholicism. But I will pray for him and support him because unfortunately that is the Bishop I have. The Church is perfect but the people are crummy.

How many Bishops stayed faithful when King Henry VIII split?

We should all look to official teachings not to horrible behavior of the members.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[bengal_fan]

The Church teaches that you do not have to accept anything from private revelation. this includes any and all apparitions of the Blessed Virgin. You must accept public revelation (the Bible, for example). I can choose to accept the messages from Fatima or Lourdes, but I can ignore them with no threat to my salvation. These are not binding on anyone but the person to whom the revelation was made.

exactly what i was going to say!

righteousone probably still won’t “discuss this topic with me” though. even though it is not officially stated by the church that she has ever appeared.

 

[bengal_fan]

i have relatives from fatima. my grandmother and mother have both made “pilgrimages” there. i know a little bit about it. and i know the church has never and will never officially acknowledge private revelation. they don’t say it didn’t happen, but they will not and have not said that it did happen.