How Practical is it for Women to be Submissive to Their Husbands in Modern Society

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

What else can I say? We have a Christian marriage and Christian marriage does require that men lead their households.

So, if you were in a coma or a nursing home with Alzheimer’s, you wouldn’t have a Christian marriage anymore?

I’d trust my wife to run-the-show since I would be incapacitated and unable to execute my God-given duties. But I’d still be married, in an obviously impaired way.

 

[Xantippe]

As a result, activities that took place away from our prehistoric campfires like hunting, gathering and tribal war were better left to males.

I have no doubt that prehistoric men ranged further and engaged in more dangerous activities, but gathering is a typical activity for women in traditional societies.

Also, my husband doesn’t engage in any hunting, gathering, or tribal war. (OK, we actually do gather pecans on walks, but it’s not a particularly difficult activity–even very little kids can bring home lots of nuts.)

 

[Walking_Home]

TheAmazingGrace:

Vonsalza:

Gen 3:16 I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule you.

1)The Genesis stuff was supposed to be a curse, and 2) again, you’re quoting Paul, not God. If it was really that important, you’d think Jesus would have broached the subject.

1. Still from the lips of God, which matters to Christians. The reality of it isn’t offset by dismissive rhetoric.
2. Jesus didn’t write anything down. For what you know about Christ’s life, you still have mortal men like Paul to thank. Either way, arguments from absence are junk. Jesus didn’t explicitly teach about the Trinity. So that doesn’t exist either?

Nope – God was/is not “authorizing” the husband to rule over the wife. He knew where the sin of pride was/is going to lead some men.

VATICAN CITY, APRIL 2, 2010 (Zenit.org).- Here is the homily delivered today by Capuchin Father Raniero Cantalamessa, preacher of the Pontifical Household, at the celebration of the Lord’s passion in St. Peter’s Basilica. The liturgy was presided over by Benedict XVI.

There are families where the man still believes himself authorized to raise his voice and hands on the women of the house. Wife and children at times live under the constant threat of “Daddy’s anger.” To such as these it is necessary to say courteously: dear men colleagues, by creating you male, God did not intend to give you the right to be angry and to bang your fist on the table for the least thing. The word addressed to Eve after the fault: “He (the man) shall rule over you” (Genesis 3:16), was a bitter forecast, not an authorization.

John Paul II inaugurated the practice of the request for forgiveness for collective wrongs. One of these, among the most just and necessary, is the forgiveness that half of humanity must ask of the other half, men to women. It must not be generic or abstract. It must lead, especially in one who professes himself a Christian, to concrete gestures of conversion, to words of apology and reconciliation within families and in society.

 

[Xantippe]

I’d trust my wife to run-the-show since I would be incapacitated and unable to execute my God-given duties. But I’d still be married, in an obviously impaired way.

So, Christian marriage does not require men to lead their households.

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

I’d trust my wife to run-the-show since I would be incapacitated and unable to execute my God-given duties. But I’d still be married, in an obviously impaired way.

So, Christian marriage does not require men to lead their households.

I does, per God’s decree. But your husband having Alzheimer’s or being in a coma is obviously an exceptional situation, isn’t it?

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Vonsalza:

As a result, activities that took place away from our prehistoric campfires like hunting, gathering and tribal war were better left to males.

I have no doubt that prehistoric men ranged further and engaged in more dangerous activities, but gathering is a typical activity for women in traditional societies.

Also, my husband doesn’t engage in any hunting, gathering, or tribal war. (OK, we actually do gather pecans on walks, but it’s not a particularly difficult activity–even very little kids can bring home lots of nuts.)

Besides…this patriarchal view of society is completely ignoring the matriarchal societies of MANY native peoples.

In fact, in my ancestorial tribe, the Jesuits respected the woman’s headship and family decision making abilities and appealed to them.

This is why St. Kateri is such an important saint to those in the Northeastern US tribes. Because the maternal/female influence is incredibly important. Females are seen as the keepers of wisdom.

Also, there is NOTHING in Catholic marriage vows about the so-called “headship” of the husband. You’d think if it was as vital as a few people are tying to make it on here the church would be making it blatently obvious every chance they got. Instead, they are VERY clear that the marital partners are equals.

Go figure.

 

[Vonsalza]

Xantippe:

Vonsalza:

As a result, activities that took place away from our prehistoric campfires like hunting, gathering and tribal war were better left to males.

I have no doubt that prehistoric men ranged further and engaged in more dangerous activities, but gathering is a typical activity for women in traditional societies.

Also, my husband doesn’t engage in any hunting, gathering, or tribal war. (OK, we actually do gather pecans on walks, but it’s not a particularly difficult activity–even very little kids can bring home lots of nuts.)

Besides…this patriarchal view of society is completely ignoring the matriarchal societies of MANY native peoples.

I’m not talking about patriarchy. Just marriage.

Females are seen as the keepers of wisdom.

Absolutely!

Also, there is NOTHING in Catholic marriage vows about the so-called “headship” of the husband… Instead, they are VERY clear that the marital partners are equals.

If every marriage ceremony required a full recitation of the complete catholic doctrine on marriage, I doubt many would attend. The current vows have just under 40 words in them, roughly.

Look, husbands have been given “distinctive headship” over their household with “complementarity between the spouses that maintains an equal dignity”.

For modern, “liberated” women that still want to abide in the Christian faith, this sucks.

But it is what it is.

I’ll leave you ladies to it.

 

[buffalo]

Rev Paul Check had a beautiful treatment of this - I cannot find it anymore online -

“WIVES, BE SUBJECT TO YOUR HUSBANDS”:
THE AUTHORITY OF THE HUSBAND ACCORDING TO THE MAGISTERIUM

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

If every marriage ceremony required a full recitation of the complete catholic doctrine on marriage, I doubt many would attend. The current vows have just under 40 words in them, roughly.

Look, husbands have been given “distinctive headship” over his household with “complementarity between the spouses that maintains an equal dignity”.

For modern, “liberated” women that still want to abide in the Christian faith, this sucks.

But it is what it is.

I’ll leave you ladies to it.

No, it isn’t “what it is”

The church doesn’t and hasn’t ever “beaten around the bush”. If they want something to be obvious, they make it obvious.

One man+One woman

free to marry

The vows contain what is needed. If the Church intended there to be more words, their wold be. It would not be difficult at all to add “headship” into the man’s vows.

The CCC does not point to any “headship” in fact it is very clear that men and women in a marital relationship are equals–no exceptions.

 

[Vonsalza]

The CCC does not point to any “headship” in fact it is very clear that men and women in a marital relationship are equals–no exceptions.

No one is saying that they aren’t equal.

They absolutely are.

They’re just not equal as it pertains to the specific function of the leadership of the home.

Sorry.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Xanthippe_Voorhees:

The CCC does not point to any “headship” in fact it is very clear that men and women in a marital relationship are equals–no exceptions.

No one is saying that they aren’t equal.

They absolutely are.

They’re just not equal as it pertains to the specific function of the leadership of the home.

Sorry.

But, agian, if that was such an important role where is the Catholic church in it? Why must you rely on a majorty OT quotes? (plus a few skewed ones from St. Paul). The church has VOLUMES of knowlege in the CCC as it pertains to marriage. They have Cannon Law. If the basic function of final decision making headship was so important to Catholic Marriage why is it no where to be seen in Catholic teaching?

 

[Xantippe]

Posted messed up draft and deleted. Sorry!

 

[Xantippe]

I does, per God’s decree. But your husband having Alzheimer’s or being in a coma is obviously an exceptional situation, isn’t it?

I think that rules ought to cover exceptional cases.

So, I would suggest that you formulate a rule that accommodates exception. See, for example, the quotes I’ve been using from Casti Connubii. That would be a good place to start.

 

[Walking_Home]

Pope Benedict XVI – on the subordination women.

MESSAGE OF HIS HOLINESS POPE BENEDICT XVI
FOR THE CELEBRATION OF THE WORLD DAY OF PEACE
1 JANUARY 2007

THE HUMAN PERSON, THE HEART OF PEACE

The natural equality of all persons

1. At the origin of many tensions that threaten peace are surely the many unjust inequalities still tragically present in our world. Particularly insidious among these are, on the one hand, inequality in access to essential goods like food, water, shelter, health; on the other hand, there are persistent inequalities between men and women in the exercise of basic human rights.

A fundamental element of building peace is the recognition of the essential equality of human persons springing from their common transcendental dignity. Equality on this level is a good belonging to all, inscribed in that natural “grammar” which is deducible from the divine plan of creation; it is a good that cannot be ignored or scorned without causing serious repercussions which put peace at risk. The extremely grave deprivation afflicting many peoples, especially in Africa, lies at the root of violent reactions and thus inflicts a terrible wound on peace.

1. Similarly, inadequate consideration for the condition of women helps to create instability in the fabric of society. I think of the exploitation of women who are treated as objects, and of the many ways that a lack of respect is shown for their dignity; I also think —in a different context—of the mindset persisting in some cultures, where women are still firmly subordinated to the arbitrary decisions of men, with grave consequences for their personal dignity and for the exercise of their fundamental freedoms. There can be no illusion of a secure peace until these forms of discrimination are also overcome, since they injure the personal dignity impressed by the Creator upon every human being(5).

40th World Day of Peace 2007, The Human Person, the Heart of Peace | BENEDICT XVI

 

[Xantippe]

The current vows have just under 40 words in them, roughly.

I think there’s a lot of wisdom in keeping it simple.

Just promising fidelity, loving and honoring and accepting children as a gift from God is a big deal.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

Saying that “you f’d up, and this is what you’re gonna have to deal with because of it,” is not the same as declaring something right and just. The fact that God cursed Eve to subservience after the fall indicates that it was not something He had originally ordained for her in Eden.

Also, Jesus actually did mention the Trinity several times, including right before His Ascension. You need to do some fact-checking.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

For modern, “liberated” women that still want to abide in the Christian faith, this sucks.

That’s not how it is, though. It’s something that conveniently caters to the male ego, without taking into account the individual leadership qualities of the spouses.

 

[omgriley]

It boils down to whether or not, as you called them, “liberated” 21st Century women, are going to accept the constant teaching of the Church with regard to Christian Marriage and familial authority. It’s obvious to me that 90% of the women on this thread either outright reject the Church’s teaching, or try to manipulate it to mean something it clearly doesn’t.

It may only be anecdotal, but it seems that a vast number of Catholic women are repulsed by the idea of wifely submission to her husband. That’s sad.

It looks like this teaching is our generation’s John 6:

Are these hard sayings? Does this teaching trouble you?

 

[omgriley]

1. again, you’re quoting Paul, not God. If it was really that important, you’d think Jesus would have broached the subject.

Paul was writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. It’s God’s teaching.

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

I does, per God’s decree. But your husband having Alzheimer’s or being in a coma is obviously an exceptional situation, isn’t it?

I think that rules ought to cover exceptional cases.

Then you’re in the wrong religion. “Anyone can baptize in an emergency”, “Extraordinary grace for non-Catholics”, ect.