How Practical is it for Women to be Submissive to Their Husbands in Modern Society

[FiveLinden]

There is a duel commission to both the husband and the wife

Enjoyed this use of words!

 

[Lea101]

That’s the thing isn’t it? When people say submission doesn’t mean always going along with the husband’s way…and then they say it means that he is the tiebreaker. It’s almost funny because it also took me a while to realize that they are the same thing.

I grew up in a household where my dad was the ‘head’, it did nothing besides letting me know what kind of man to avoid on the future

 

[Katie777]

After reading pages and pages of this, I know for sure who holds the most authority in most decisions in the daily life of families.

This includes decisions such as meal times, where to sit in church, how much sleep we all get, work and recreation schedules, daily activities and so forth.

It’s the toddlers.

And most are happy to submit.

 

[Lea101]

Not if you’re in an Asian family! mom and dads were definitely in control of us even then

 

[Vonsalza]

As I asked another member posting in this thread, would you mind sharing how wifely submission works in your own marriage?
I truly think the more everyone hears real examples from Catholic men on how submission and headship are done on a daily basis in their own homes, the better we can understand how those verses in Scripture translate into life in modern society…which I believe was what the OP was leaning towards in her question.

I think the answer is still something that a lot of modern, “liberated” ladies may not like.

The happiness of my wife is one of the absolute most important things to me. If she’s smiling, then the kids are smiling (particularly when they were little) and thus, I’m smiling. As such, her voice is heard and she’s absolutely a partner in the decision-making process of my household. And if I disagree with her and I consider it to be a non-major issue, I’m happy to go along with her for the sake of greasing the wheels of my marriage.

-but-

When it is a major issue we disagree on, I’m the head. I make the call, her objection duly noted.
Now, this is a rather rare thing. It might only happen a few times a year (if at all) and the older we get, the fewer of these situations we encounter. And thank God. I don’t like the cool marriage bed we share in the immediate aftermath of such decisions.

But the husband’s headship means exactly what you think it means.

Now there’s an obvious conflict between the modern social construct of marriage (particularly in the west) and the Christian construct of the same. In the OT, God called forth man from the clay and made woman from him as his “help-meet”. In the NT a man is proclaimed head of the household as Christ is head of the Church. It’s remarkably consistent across the millennia.

So I guess one would need to decide if Christianity is going to be subservient to modern society -or- if their participation in modern society is subject to Christianity. If one chooses Christianity, then in that religion the husband is given an authority (and responsibility) that the wife does not share.

Apropos, ladies need to be cognizant of this when selecting a mate. Check out how his dad treats his mom. And fellas, check out how her mom treats her dad. A lot of the time, that’s what you’re in for.

 

[Vonsalza]

After reading pages and pages of this, I know for sure who holds the most authority in most decisions in the daily life of families.

This includes decisions such as meal times, where to sit in church, how much sleep we all get, work and recreation schedules, daily activities and so forth.

It’s the toddlers.

And most are happy to submit.

Ain’t that the God-breathed truth…

There is no tyrant in the house as absolute as babies and toddlers…

 

[Lea101]

To be perfectly honest…there are many reasons why women are not comfortable with it that it would probably take me a long time to type it.

For me personally, a loving master is still a master. A loving head is still the head. I view relationships as a more intimate friendship, and I can’t imagine a friendship where I would have to obey a friend, whether she/he abused the power or not. A hierarchy in a relationship of two…coupled with all those verses about women (I know it depends on the context etc)…it doesn’t make a woman feel good.

Not to mention I just see so many guys that insist on having power and authority and they are practically lusting over the idea of a very conservative family, which is a red flag to me. There are relationships where the guy seem to naturally take the lead without anyone really realizing, and that’s fine ofc (whatever works for them) but when I see men focusing on being the head and women focusing on traditional femininity, I get very uncomfortable, even when they spend years trying to explain it’s all out of love. To me, it doesn’t make sense as relationships and people are very different…so why force a template. Not to mention psychology doesn’t support the whole extreme gender differences thing that people here like to throw out

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

When it is a major issue we disagree on, I’m the head.

It’s much easier to say “I’m the boss, and that’s that,” than it is to work toward a mutually satisfying compromise. I still don’t understand why people think men should automatically get the monopoly on headship, as if women are inherently unqualified. Now, you might say it works for you, but remember: you’re a man, and therefore the primary beneficiary of this system. Given your vantage point, it’s safe to say you most likely don’t have a thorough understanding of what this kind of arrangement really entails for the “submissive” partners.

For all my faults, I do think I’m a self-sufficient, independent adult. I’ve had to make some hard choices and develop a lot of skills, and I have a lot of faith in my own intuition and decision-making abilities. Knowing that I am, in fact, a competent adult in my own right, why on earth would I give some man veto power over my life?

 

[Vonsalza]

To be perfectly honest…there are many reasons why women are not comfortable with it that it would probably take me a long time to type it.

I’m probably familiar with most of them. So suffice it to say, “I know what you mean”.

For me personally, a loving master is still a master. A loving head is still the head. I view relationships as a more intimate friendship, and I can’t imagine a friendship where I would have to obey a friend, whether she/he abused the power or not.

I know it’s a tough concept for many modern women. But headship is an invoked power of last resort. 99.99% of the time, we come to a mutual agreement on an issue or I yield because I think the reward of the disagreement isn’t worth the cost. Thus as a percentage of spousal decisions, it’s almost never used.

What else can I say? We have a Christian marriage and Christian marriage does require that men lead their households.

A hierarchy in a relationship of two…coupled with all those verses about women (I know it depends on the context etc)…it doesn’t make a woman feel good.

There’s no sugar-coating headship. It is an aspect of Christian marriage that conflicts directly with modernity. But we’re also partners. I didn’t marry her just to lead her around. I’m sure she feels the same way. Invoking my rights as “high-priest of the household” is the “nuclear option” and neither of us like pressing that button.

Not to mention I just see so many guys that insist on having power and authority and they are practically lusting over the idea of a very conservative family, which is a red flag to me.

Me too.

Date carefully, ladies. And look past the romantic gestures of infatuation and try to see him for who he is. My dad always told me that the most important criteria for a successful marriage isn’t the degree to which you love all their positive aspects. It’s the degree to which you can tolerate their negative ones.

It’s not romantic, but I think my old man was spot-on with that.

but when I see men focusing on being the head and women focusing on traditional femininity, I get very uncomfortable…

I’m sorry you feel that way. Many of these aspects are observable in most cultures across the planet, as many gender roles are absolutely rooted in our biology.

…why force a template.

For folks who follow it, it’s likely because their faith has a greater say over the matter than their personal intuitions.

Functionally, it’s a model that eliminates impasses. In difficult situations, a decision gets made and the house moves forward. There’s tremendous pragmatic value in this that can’t be understated.

Not to mention psychology doesn’t support the whole extreme gender differences thing that people here like to throw out

My baby sister had a Ph.D in psych. She’s a traditionalist too. So “psychology” seems to be rather fluid, perhaps.

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

When it is a major issue we disagree on, I’m the head.

It’s much easier to say “I’m the boss, and that’s that,” than it is to work toward a mutually satisfying compromise.

I agree completely. A husband should be slow to unilaterally invoke his God-given right of headship.

I still don’t understand why people think men should automatically get the monopoly on headship, as if women are inherently unqualified…

Knowing that I am, in fact, a competent adult in my own right, why on earth would I give some man veto power over my life?

The issue isn’t that women aren’t qualified. For people who are Christians, God has spoken pretty unambiguously about the issue. The husbands take the headship.

As stated above, no real way to sugar-coat that.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

What did God say on the issue? I’m not talking about the two excerpts from Paul’s letters: where specifically in the Bible did God say - in His own words - that wives are to be the subservient party?

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

Many of these aspects are observable in most cultures across the planet, as many gender roles are absolutely rooted in our biology.

The heck does that mean?

 

[Vonsalza]

What did God say on the issue? I’m not talking about the two excerpts from Paul’s letters: where specifically in the Bible did God say - in His own words - that wives are to be the subservient party?

Eph 5:22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
Col 3:18 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
Gen 2:18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”
Gen 3:16 I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule you.

I’ll leave it at that.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

Gen 3:16 I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule you.

1)The Genesis stuff was supposed to be a curse, and 2) again, you’re quoting Paul, not God. If it was really that important, you’d think Jesus would have broached the subject.

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

Many of these aspects are observable in most cultures across the planet, as many gender roles are absolutely rooted in our biology.

The heck does that mean?

Gender has biological roots.

In our species, the males tend to be larger, stronger. Males lack breasts, which make them better at throwing rocks and spears. Males have more narrow hips, which make them more efficient runners.

The females of our species are burdened with the reproductive systems that carry their young for rather long gestational periods and they are burdened with the task of feeding those young.

As a result, activities that took place away from our prehistoric campfires like hunting, gathering and tribal war were better left to males. And activities that took place near our prehistoric campfires like rearing young were better left to females.

Biologically, males and females are not “equals”. They’re adapted for different tasks. Thus the rise of gender roles in prehistoric society.

But I’ll answer no more on this here. We can start a new thread if you wish.

 

[Lea101]

The extreme gender roles you see littered here and there would be like: Women are naturally not good at being leaders, it’s literally encoded in their DNA! Women are just naturally more creative than men! Etc

It doesn’t take into account the experiences of the person, the individual differences, culture etc. Variations between individuals are a lot more significant than that between both genders. That was the point I was trying to make. To say that women are ____ and men are _____ is to avoid acknowledging the maaany factors that shape who we are today

You can solve problems when it arises, and there will be one person who would be unhappy, but to say that it’ll always be the woman…

As for that comment about men focusing on the head and women on femininity, I was talking about the unnecessary focus on it. If the submission/headship is constantly in your mind…there’s probably something wrong there imo. Your average person would not be constantly thinking about how to be the most feminine Belle out there, she would just be herself. Same with a typical guy (at least I hope), if he’s constantly thinking about patriarchy…I would run.

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

Gen 3:16 I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule you.

1)The Genesis stuff was supposed to be a curse, and 2) again, you’re quoting Paul, not God. If it was really that important, you’d think Jesus would have broached the subject.

1. Still from the lips of God, which matters to Christians. The reality of it isn’t offset by dismissive rhetoric.
2. Jesus didn’t write anything down. For what you know about Christ’s life, you still have mortal men like Paul to thank. Either way, arguments from absence are junk. Jesus didn’t explicitly teach about the Trinity. So that doesn’t exist either?

 

[Vonsalza]

The extreme gender roles you see littered here and there would be like: Women are naturally not good at being leaders, it’s literally encoded in their DNA! Women are just naturally more creative than men! Etc

That’s not at all what’s being said.

If the submission/headship is constantly in your mind…there’s probably something wrong there imo.

I agree.

 

[Lea101]

Oh you would be surprised…

 

[Xantippe]

What else can I say? We have a Christian marriage and Christian marriage does require that men lead their households.

So, if you were in a coma or a nursing home with Alzheimer’s, you wouldn’t have a Christian marriage anymore?