How Practical is it for Women to be Submissive to Their Husbands in Modern Society

[Xantippe]

You can always find people to help you justify your sin. I am sure your husband had no problem finding people who justice his purchases your family could ill afford. I choose the car as an extreme example to make a point but it did actually happen to a couple I knew. You would be surprised how many of our friends defended the wife’s purchase.

[snip]

Discussions like these often prey on women’s insecurities. These discussions encourage women to make chores a power play (what do you mean he won’t do his half?) or pushes them to make crazy decisions just to prove they can.

Also, there is a lack of empathy for men in these discussions. They have their own problems and issues. They feel the “burden” of marriage every bit as much as we do. It isn’t like they get to make all their decisions independently either. Many decisions are made by circumstances.

Why do I encourage wives to let their husbands have the final say as much as possible? Because like it or not the male ego thrives in such circumstances. Let him be king of his little corner of the world and he will move mountains for you and your children. That’s the best father you can give your kids.

I think it’s just trashy to buy a car without getting a green light from husband or wife, assuming one isn’t a multimillionaire, of course. My husband is (thank goodness!) not a spender, and actually runs even small purchases past me before he does it (a recent one was a $23 Christmas gift). His particular faults are more in the direction of stinginess, which is not always fun to deal with (he wants to wear his clothing to rags), but thanks be to God, he has never unilaterally caused any financial distress to our family through overspending. (Pre-Dave Ramsey at our house, I occasionally OKed purchases that we couldn’t afford, but that was both our fault.)

But other people have husbands who are spenders–and there’s no income good enough that it can’t be overspent.

I don’t think regular posting CAF married ladies are, as a rule, prone to making large decisions without their husband’s approval. I’m sure that must happen somewhere, but it isn’t something that gets a lot of approval here.

Part of the way to make marriage less burdensome to men is to discourage them from the idea that they always need to be the Great and Powerful Oz, all-knowing, all-seeing, making all the important decisions for their families. Whew, isn’t it a relief not to have to carry that burden around?

I agree that both spouses should say “yes” to each other a lot and be positive as much as possible (at my house we believe in the 5:1 ratio of positive to negative interactions), but my experience (and the experience of many other women) does not support the idea that “he will move mountains for you and your children” if we just plump up his male ego enough. That was certainly not Captain Janeway’s experience–it just made her husband lazy and selfish. And frankly, I don’t think it’s very respectful to treat one’s husband like a big baby.

 

[babochka]

Xantippe:

Why?

If mom is going to be driving it 80% of the time and wants a minivan with sliding doors, why doesn’t mom get a minivan? Why would we want her husband to pick out an SUV or a sedan for her that she doesn’t even want? (Assuming we are staying within a budget, etc.)

Because husband has taken on the huge responsibility of providing for 8 people or whatever, and maybe he can’t afford a minivan with sliding doors. I would hope he discusses it with his wife and they mutually agree on something they both like, but if he’s paying for it, at the end of the day he gets more of the say.

Why would he get more of a say? That’s simply not how it works in our family. The fact that my husband earns the money does not affect decision-making in any way. In my family, I pay the bills and keep track of the budget. If my husband wants to buy something out of the ordinary, he always checks with me to make sure we can afford it. I don’t always check with him in the same way because I know how much money we have in any given month. When we were first married and both working, we kept separate accounts for convenience, but we always considered all of the money to be our money. That has not changed since I stopped bringing in an income. If that is not the arrangement that you are used to, I can understand why you would be adamantly opposed to a woman giving up her income.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

My mother didn’t work and would never have bought a car Dad did not approve of. And she drove it 100 percent of the time because Dad was sick and couldn’t drive.

My mother and dad were so much on the same page about everything that to my knowledge, they did not have disagreements about houses, cars, etc. and she trusted Dad’s judgment in the extreme.

I’m not used to couples having to have long discussions, debates and disagreements about monetary things or religious things or anything else. I’m used to marriages where people get along, and the arguments are more of the “I had a bad day and now you left dishes in the sink” sort of momentary blowup that happens like 2 times a year and is made up within a day.

Again, I realize everybody is different. I have no idea why you can’t just accept that my opinion is my opinion and if you want to have some different one, have it without asking me why I have mine. There’s no rule book that says we all have to think alike. If you want to run your marriage differently and it works for you, have at it, just don’t tell me how to think or how to run mine, and I am not telling you to do anything except be responsible in your spending, which I assume you are doing.

Peace out…

 

[KathleenT]

A family. That’s the purpose of marriage. If you don’t want a family, you have no business getting married. If you want one, it is a lot harder and far more unstable to build one outside of marriage.

 

[Xantippe]

Because husband has taken on the huge responsibility of providing for 8 people or whatever, and maybe he can’t afford a minivan with sliding doors.

I’m assuming that we are staying within a particular budget and the question is just what kind of car are we getting for the same money.

Minivans are extremely practical for mothers with small children and if a mother wanted one, it would be weird and selfish of her husband to insist on buying something she didn’t want when she’s the one using it.

(We bought ours used with cash for under $12k.)

 

[Tis_Bearself]

So if you could afford it, and your husband was fine with the purchase, why are you debating this with me?

 

[Xantippe]

I guess I’m just bothered by the assertion in the article that a stay-at-home mom cannot be functional unless she has a small family and her husband makes more than $100,000 a year.

That’s not what she was saying.

What she is talking about is–if you want to have a functional family on less than $100k, here are some things that will help your wife be happier and more effective.

 

[Vonsalza]

Here’s the thing–a guy could think he was fulfilling his God-given duty of leading his household while actually making bad choices and hurting his wife.

Sure, but before I made that determination, I’d probably seek a neutral, credible third party for verification. Your priest might be a good place to start.

Depression is an epidemic among SAHMs.

If you feel depressed or are on the verge of killing your children (per the article you cited), I recommend you swiftly seek professional help.

But I think SAHMs (or anyone) should be fairly slow to lay the blame for any particular woe at any one person’s feet. Many western SAHMs were themselves raised in a society were they grew-up expecting nearly unlimited personal freedom and the role of the SAHM was cast in a less-than-positive light.

I know from some personal experience that babies murder personal freedom. I recall they joyful days where I had an infant, a two-year old and a four year old.

He could not see how isolated and lonely and stressed I was, and he did things to to make my isolation worse. And if he saw me falling apart, he didn’t recognize how badly off I was, and he didn’t think of it as his responsibility to help me figure out how to do better. I had to save me by putting Baby Girl in PDO one day a week.

Perhaps he had his own problems to deal with. I know intimately that a family looking at you to make the next “kill” so they can eat and function is stressful as $%^&.

One thing I appreciated about my wife is that she didn’t expect me to emotionally babysit her. When the kids were killing her and she was at her wits-end, she let me know in unambiguous terms. And I took action.

Not saying this is exactly what you’re doing, but it’s fairly common. No one can read minds yet, so if there’s a grievance, adults need to air it. “They should just know!” is childish and ultimately selfish. Again, other folks are dealing with their own issues too.

And everyone here should recognize that we’re only getting one side of the story. Reminds me of this article I’ve read numerous times.

A husband’s plea to Catholic Answers Forum: Stop sowing discord in my house!

 

[Xantippe]

So if you could afford it, and your husband was fine with the purchase, why are you debating this with me?

I’m not talking about my personal situation, but disagreeing with the idea that a husband should dictate what car his wife drives because he makes the money.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I said he should have “more of the say”. This does not equate to “he dictates” and I have no idea why you would read it that way.

To be honest, this thread is just confirming to me that people see money through the lens of whatever their own experience is and become kind of emotional discussing it and read all sorts of weird stuff into the discussion. Which is, I believe, what was also taught in our pre-Cana.

Peace, I am out. I hope everyone reaches the types of agreements with their spouses that work for them. I’ll continue on my own course that works for me, and maybe just not share about it next time, so as not to add to more debate pile.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

I can get that from an egalitarian marriage just fine. What I want to know is why I should enter into a union where I’m the subservient partner?

 

[KathleenT]

I apologize, I thought you were the one who shared the story about the $70 tool set vs. the dresser from the thrift store.

You seem determined to misunderstand me.

There is no way for the husband to act as head of the house while the wife treats him as a baby.

Several of you seem to read into my suggestions a level of insincerity and a patronizing attitude towards husbands. I am advocating trust not mocking. I am not advocating enabling a deadbeat husband either.

Your husband is the great and powerful oz of the family. You help that burden by giving him your honest (name removed by moderator)ut. By insisting on your own way over his objections you are telling him he is incapable of being the leader of the family, whether you intend to or not.

 

[KathleenT]

Are you Catholic? If yes, are you planing to marry in the Church?

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

Are you Catholic? If yes, are you planing to marry in the Church?

I am Catholic, and I do intend to marry in the Church. The Church does not require Catholic wives to be submissive, though. Outside of rad Trad circles, I almost never hear Catholic clergy touch on the subject.

 

[Vonsalza]

KathleenT:

Are you Catholic? If yes, are you planing to marry in the Church?

I am Catholic, and I do intend to marry in the Church. The Church does not require Catholic wives to be submissive, though. Outside of rad Trad circles, I almost never hear Catholic clergy touch on the subject.

For the third time;

Wives Do What? | Catholic Answers Magazine

 

[AdamP88]

The invocation of the God-given role of headship is a rarity in my marriage.

Here’s the thing…I have no problem with the “God-Given Role” of headship. But as I said, it seems to me that actual reading of ALL of the scriptures relating to these matters provides a more balanced view than that the husband can boss his wife around.

Again, if that works for your marriage, grand, but I don’t think you should be under any illusion that it’s essential to Catholic marriage.

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

The invocation of the God-given role of headship is a rarity in my marriage.

Here’s the thing…I have no problem with the “God-Given Role” of headship. But as I said, it seems to me that actual reading of ALL of the scriptures relating to these matters provides a more balanced view than that the husband can boss his wife around.

Where have I made the argument that he could?

You have an excellent counter here. It’s just not a counter to anything I’ve posted.

Again, if that works for your marriage, grand, but I don’t think you should be under any illusion that it’s essential to Catholic marriage.

As that’s not how my marriage functions, I’m at a bit of a loss here.

But as long as you agree that headship exists and that it actually means something, good enough for me.

 

[KatieAnn86]

My question about this is,
I have an aunt who has been married about 3 years now and her whole attitude towards her husband and our lord has changed. She has always been somewhat of a conspiracy theorist, but here lately she has taken her ways of worshiping our lord to what seems extreme for a catholic wife. She ignores her husband, who has been very wonderful to her. They haven’t been acting as wife and husband because she presents herself as more of a nun. He has expressed his feelings of how she acts towards him and she says she only does “wifely things” with him or around him because she has to, not because she wants to. Is she going away from her vocation of married life by being this way, and is she disrespecting her husband in God’s eyes by doing these things? I am concerned for both of them and pray for them daily. I don’t understand what has made her go so drastic in her changes.

 

[AdamP88]

Fair enough. I’m sorry if I misunderstood you. Perhaps the word “boss around” was not the right term.

I read the article you posted. I agree with most of what he says. I agree that headship is a thing, but it seems clear from this article that it’s less about having the “ultimate decision making power” and more about being a servant to the family, leading by example.

The Baptist’s statement does use the term “servant leadership”. And the quotes from Church documents do say “this does not mean the wife has to obey the husbands every command without question.”

 

[Xantippe]

Sure, but before I made that determination, I’d probably seek a neutral, credible third party for verification. Your priest might be a good place to start.

[snip]

One thing I appreciated about my wife is that she didn’t expect me to emotionally babysit her. When the kids were killing her and she was at her wits-end, she let me know in unambiguous terms. And I took action.

Not saying this is exactly what you’re doing, but it’s fairly common. No one can read minds yet, so if there’s a grievance, adults need to air it. “They should just know!” is childish and ultimately selfish. Again, other folks are dealing with their own issues too.

With me and my husband, when we hit bottom, I told him that if he didn’t stop doing a particular thing, we were going to marriage counseling. A lot of people would say that wasn’t very submissive of me. Thankfully, he stopped doing it and he was able (after a lot of clear speaking on my part) to realize that he had been hurting me. We were able to get back on track without any outside help, beyond me reading some marriage books and us talking.

Again, I am very nice to my husband since then. In fact, paradoxically, I’m a whole lot nicer than I used to be when my views were closer to yours.

I’m doing very well now. What I meant is that husbands are the first line of defense for ensuring that wives’ mental health is doing OK, but this is not really an area where conservative religious husbands typically shine, even though their wives (by virtue of heavier household responsibilities, larger families and longer careers as SAHMs) are in much more danger. This is an important area for new fathers to show leadership. Sometimes husbands don’t want their wives seeking professional help and what then? Going to the doctor against your husband’s wishes is unsubmissive, isn’t it?

No doubt my husband did have his own problems–but not only was he not making an effort to help with the toddler, he was also trying to stop me from doing things that would have been good for me (like leaving the house by myself and having some sort of interactions with other adults) and he was also choosing to pick fights with me over stuff he didn’t even care about (as I eventually discovered). He enjoyed arguing (it’s his job) and he didn’t realize what a toll it was taking on me to deal with him making ever little thing a federal case.

Thankfully, this was not over an extended period of time, but toward the end, I think I was sinking into depression. Everything, even just getting Baby Girl into her car seat and leaving the house, seemed impossibly difficult.

A lot of people would say that was unsubmissive of your wife.

I was asking my husband for help–it was just that he would argue with me over just about every minor request and it was hard to get an hour’s help from him with our youngest. (Granted, he was often doing stuff with the big kids, but I didn’t need a break from the big kids–the big kids were no trouble at all.) He made asking him for anything a burden in itself.

Thank goodness he doesn’t do that anymore!