How should I tell them

[Della]

I decided to respond in a bit of a different pattern than the above, one I am an athiest and you may not take my posting to heart, or I may get flak for this, but here goes anyways. One of the main reasons that I am an athiest is that I need to be truthful to myself first and foremost. To most believer, they cannot accept how someone cannot simply believe. It is not an action that one can just will themselves into. They can read, study, search for truth with all the open heartedness that they have and still come to different conclusions…hence the birth of all the religions in the world. One searches for the truth in the same book with the same writings, and comes to different interpretations, thus different “catagories” of Christianity. It sounds like the OP has somewhat of the same “tactic” as I, in that to remain with the Cahtolic church with all his convictions when searching for the truth, he has realized that to stay would be a lie to himself. Belief and feelings/emotions all have to come from the self and our unique perspectives of the world. You can be taught the ideas or the how someone should feel in certain situations but you cannot make their core believe them, no matter the literature. It is called faith for a reason. You can have all the post-secondary evidence for your reasons and teach them, but in the end it comes down to faith. There are people today that still believe to their core that the world is flat (flat earth society) Unless they see something, touch it, experience it, have a truly eye opening encounter, they will not believe it in their hearts, and to try to do so, or force themselves to do so would be a lie to thereselves.

As I said…I am an athiest but I can truly understand how a believer or a Catholic truly in their heart believes that they are right and the disappointment when they see someone that they love or care for do what they truly believe in their hearts to be “wrong” - go to a different religion etc. I try to respect that in all aspects of my life, even when accosted and constantly told that I am wrong and asked why I simply do not just believe in what they so feverently believe in. It would be a lie to myself and in truth I do not foresee that belief ever entering my heart no matter the will I give towards it. The same sounds for the OP.

Thats my two cents anyways.

A lot of what you say is true. Faith means believing in things not evident with the 5 senses. However, the Christian faith isn’t based on mere wishful thinking or legends, but in history, reason and facts–like Judaism from which it sprang. We Catholics aren’t asking Looking Back to negate her reason, but to truly engage it–to know why she is rejecting certain teachings even though it’s apparent she has many misconceptions about them. If she truly understands and cannot accept, that’s one thing, but to leave the Catholic faith (or any other institution) based on misconceptions would be a mistake for anyone. I showed her she had the wrong idea about one issue she listed. Based on that, I have to think that she probably has it wrong about most of the others as well. We’re trying to help her see that. If she will not see it, then there’s no other argument we can make that would help her.

 

[RobnBobA1]

A lot of what you say is true. Faith means believing in things not evident with the 5 senses. However, the Christian faith isn’t based on mere wishful thinking or legends, but in history, reason and facts–like Judaism from which it sprang. We Catholics aren’t asking Looking Back to negate her reason, but to truly engage it–to know why she is rejecting certain teachings even though it’s apparent she has many misconceptions about them. If she truly understands and cannot accept, that’s one thing, but to leave the Catholic faith (or any other institution) based on misconceptions would be a mistake for anyone. I showed her she had the wrong idea about one issue she listed. Based on that, I have to think that she probably has it wrong about most of the others as well. We’re trying to help her see that. If she will not see it, then there’s no other argument we can make that would help her.

I didn’t mean to make it sound like christians believed on wishful thinking and I apologize if that was the impression that I made.

It may not just be misconceptions but simply the way it was taught that may have been wrong. she stated that a priest called homosexual couples a bad name as an example. That reflex more of a teaching at her church, which may to others be considered a misconception on the teaching of the church. It may be that she knows the teaching that the church has given but that she simply disagrees with not only the teaching but the attitudes that she sees people in the church reflecting that teaching and may be reacting more strongly to those attitudes than the actual teachings.

She says that she is prochoice and believes that the use of BC is not immoral. This is a core belief in Catholism, that she most certainly knows and understands the teachings behind it, since Catholics are the loudest voices in public and private life against it. I would say that she wouldn’t have a misconception simply a difference in the teachings of the church and her personal life. that may be true on a number of issues.

 

[Della]

I didn’t mean to make it sound like christians believed on wishful thinking and I apologize if that was the impression that I made.

That’s good, although I have heard atheists say that’s what Christian belief is. Still, I know not all think that way.

It may not just be misconceptions but simply the way it was taught that may have been wrong. she stated that a priest called homosexual couples a bad name as an example. That reflex more of a teaching at her church, which may to others be considered a misconception on the teaching of the church. It may be that she knows the teaching that the church has given but that she simply disagrees with not only the teaching but the attitudes that she sees people in the church reflecting that teaching and may be reacting more strongly to those attitudes than the actual teachings.

Frankly, what she wrote surprised me because I have never heard a priest condemn anyone in such terms nor have such an attitude. If any Catholics do they are wrong and are going against their own Church. Of course, members of a body of believers acting hypocritically says nothing about the actual beliefs–it’s only says something about those persons.

She says that she is prochoice and believes that the use of BC is not immoral. This is a core belief in Catholism, that she most certainly knows and understands the teachings behind it, since Catholics are the loudest voices in public and private life against it. I would say that she wouldn’t have a misconception simply a difference in the teachings of the church and her personal life. that may be true on a number of issues.

Sometimes all they hear is the shouting and not the content. However, if she disagrees with the Church’s teachings while knowing full well what it teaches, well, that’s another matter. I can honestly say that in 20 years of being an apologist I’ve never found anyone who truly understood–I mean knew why not just the words, that couldn’t see the sound reasoning behind the Church’s teachings. My personal experience isn’t the end-all and be-all, of course, but it is what I’ve seen again and again. Just saying.

 

[Janet1983]

BTW - the Church has removed the “formal defection”. Once Catholic, Always Catholic!

I’m not so sure about that. There is still such a thing as formal defection. I received a copy of the letter to the parish I was baptized in yesterday. It was signed by the Bishop-elect and the Judicial Vicar and informed the parish I was baptized in about my defection, asking them to proceed to remark this in the register. The letter is dated February 12, 2010.
When did they remove formal defection?

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you.

Your sister in Christ,
Janet

 

[kage_ar]

I’m not so sure about that. There is still such a thing as formal defection. I received a copy of the letter to the parish I was baptized in yesterday. It was signed by the Bishop-elect and the Judicial Vicar and informed the parish I was baptized in about my defection, asking them to proceed to remark this in the register. The letter is dated February 12, 2010.
When did they remove formal defection?

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you.

Your sister in Christ,
Janet

Google “Omnium in mentem.”

 

[Janet1983]

Google “Omnium in mentem.”

As far as I see it that does not however get rid of formal defection in and of itself. It changes the effects on marital issues, by taking specific wordings mentioning formal defection out of the canon, but it has no effect on the existence of formal defection… or did I just overlook it?

It has not been changed yet on the Vatican’s homepage, so it’s likely that it was publicized but that is not yet in force. (I would assume that this kind of a change would have been matched on the Vatican’s page within the last 2 1/2 months had it already been in force).

Thank you very much however for pointing me in the right direction. I very much appreciate your help. Please tell me if I misunderstood something here.

To Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever.

Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Janet

 

[kage_ar]

Janet - I will pray that you return to Jesus in His Church and I can rejoice with the angels to welcome my sister home.

 

[Onedayatatime]

catholicscomehome.org/

I am glad you are still posting here. Means you are still undecided. Take a look at this web site, it might help you…

 

[ExDeoVita]

Actually. I came here to see if talking with people and reading conversations would do anything to change my mind — the last chance as it were. And, to be honest. It did nothing but put me totally at peace with my decision. I hope I will always be a friend of the Catholic Church but I can’t see being an active part of the Catholic Church. I don’t plan to just no longer go to mass but to formally defect, although it appears even that means less than it once did.

Hmmm…

The questions we ask are never as important as why we ask them.

Why…out of all the positive posts of members concerned for you, did you hand select the one that was mildely negatine? If as you said, you were looking for somethin to change your mind you had quite a few people reaching out to you with concern.

I’m not going to judge you, but I can speak from personal experience… when we make decisions we are not at peace with we seek excuses that fit our pre-established motive. If this is the case, which only you know, than you mind was made up before you even visited the CAF site. ?

Why did you latch on to the first negative post?

If you really want an opportunity to ‘change your mind’ than you need to give those in the forum something to work with. If we had an inkling of why you hit a road block than we could offer you genuine advice and it would be up to you to take it or leave it…

 

[John21652]

I’m not so sure about that. There is still such a thing as formal defection. I received a copy of the letter to the parish I was baptized in yesterday. It was signed by the Bishop-elect and the Judicial Vicar and informed the parish I was baptized in about my defection, asking them to proceed to remark this in the register. The letter is dated February 12, 2010.
When did they remove formal defection?

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you.

Your sister in Christ,
Janet

Read here -

Actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica

Actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica (a formal act of defection from the Catholic Church) is the action by which someone formally, and not just de facto, leaves the Catholic Church. Canons 1086, 1117 and 1124 of the 1983 Code of Canon Law indicated some juridical effects of such an act, but these effects were abolished by the motu proprio Omnium in mentem of 26 October 2009.[1][2][3] A notification from the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts in 2006 specified in what the act consists.

The Catholic Church in Germany and some other countries previously treated as such an act the declaration that some made to the civil authorities for the purpose of avoiding the extra tax traditionally collected by the state for the benefit of whatever Church the tax-payer was a member of. The Church in those countries considered people who made this declaration as no longer entitled to the privileges of membership of the Church, such as having a wedding in church.

The 2006 notification ruled that such declarations do not necessarily indicate a decision to abandon the Church in reality. It laid down that only the competent bishop or parish priest is to judge whether the person genuinely intends to leave the Church through an act of apostasy, heresy, or schism. It also pointed out that single acts of apostasy, heresy or schism (which can be repented) do not necessarily involve also a decision to leave the Church, and so “do not in themselves constitute a formal act of defection if they are not externally concretized and manifested to the ecclesiastical authority in the required manner.”

The decision to leave the Church must therefore be manifested personally, consciously and freely, and in writing, to the competent Church authority, who is then to judge whether it is genuinely a case of “true separation from the constitutive elements of the life of the Church … (by) an act of apostasy, heresy or schism.”

If the bishop or parish priest decides that the individual has indeed made a formal act of defection from the Catholic Church – making a decision on this matter will normally require a meeting with the person involved – the fact of this formal act is to be noted in the register of the person’s baptism. This annotation, like other annotations in the baptismal register, such as those of marriage or ordination, is unrelated to the fact of the baptism: it is not a “debaptism”.[4] The fact of having been baptized remains a fact, and the Catholic Church holds that baptism marks a person with a seal or character that “is an ontological and permanent bond which is not lost by reason of any act or fact of defection.”

I recall posting earlier in the thread that one cannot “unbaptise” oneself. By all means walk away from the Church and cease to be a practicing Catholic if you are so troubled by what the Church teaches, but that is a different thing, a totally different thing from renouncing the Church. Renouncing the Church requires apostasy,heresy, or schism.

Many of us down through the ages have questioned and queried the Church’s teachings. I suppose that would come under the heading of ‘schism’, but certainly not in the league of schisms caused by some of the dissenters in ages past. Many of us have walked away for various lengths of time. However, when it all boils down to it, if you believe in God, then the Catholic Church is the best of them all and really, there is no reason to denounce the Church, even if you disagree on some fundamentals. If you do not believe in the existence of God, then there is no need for any formal ‘renunciation’, because everything to do with the Church and religion is rendered meaningless anyway! If you don’t believe in God, nothing the Church does can have merit in your eyes. None of the procedures, rules and regulations of the Church would matter to you and to seek a ‘renunciation’ would be a betrayal of your atheism.

 

[kenofken]

Those of us who formally defected did so because “just walking away” is not enough. So long as we are counted as members, whether literally or figuratively, the organization is speaking and acting in our name. The way I try to frame this for practicing, believing Catholics is this: suppose Planned Parenthood kept counting you as a member and in fact published your name on a list of “proud supporters” and used your membership to help leverage additional funds etc. And let’s say they claim the right to do this because your parents were members and took out a “lifetime membership” in your name shortly after you were born. (Hokey scenario I know, but bear me out). Would you consider it enough to simply “not participate.”? The flip side of this is that I should not be speaking or representing myself as a Catholic when I do not share its core beliefs.

On the question of whether defection has been “ended” or not. As I understand, you can still make a declaration and have it recognized. The quirk is that it now appears to have no real meaning in canon law. They won’t exempt you from the marriage rules they used to and consider you just as Catholic as the day before you defected. Kind of absurd, but that’s how it is. The only real on the ground effect I can discern is in European countries where a small slice of your tax money would no longer go to the church.

 

[Janet1983]

Read here -

I recall posting earlier in the thread that one cannot “unbaptise” oneself. By all means walk away from the Church and cease to be a practicing Catholic if you are so troubled by what the Church teaches, but that is a different thing, a totally different thing from renouncing the Church. Renouncing the Church requires apostasy,heresy, or schism.

Many of us down through the ages have questioned and queried the Church’s teachings. I suppose that would come under the heading of ‘schism’, but certainly not in the league of schisms caused by some of the dissenters in ages past. Many of us have walked away for various lengths of time. However, when it all boils down to it, if you believe in God, then the Catholic Church is the best of them all and really, there is no reason to denounce the Church, even if you disagree on some fundamentals. If you do not believe in the existence of God, then there is no need for any formal ‘renunciation’, because everything to do with the Church and religion is rendered meaningless anyway! If you don’t believe in God, nothing the Church does can have merit in your eyes. None of the procedures, rules and regulations of the Church would matter to you and to seek a ‘renunciation’ would be a betrayal of your atheism.

Well I guess that would then classify me as a heretic and schismatic in the eyes of the Church, would it? The bishop decided that I did indeed make a formal act of defection from the Catholic Church, though in my case there hasn’t been a meeting. All I did was write a letter, stating my wish and my reasons. The follow up was a copy of a letter to the parish I was baptized in (in Germany) asking them to continue with the procedure (marking my record and reporting back).

To the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever.

Your sister in Christ,
Janet

 

[John21652]

Well I guess that would then classify me as a heretic and schismatic in the eyes of the Church, would it? The bishop decided that I did indeed make a formal act of defection from the Catholic Church, though in my case there hasn’t been a meeting. All I did was write a letter, stating my wish and my reasons. The follow up was a copy of a letter to the parish I was baptized in (in Germany) asking them to continue with the procedure (marking my record and reporting back).

To the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever.

Your sister in Christ,
Janet

Ok, it’s off to the stake with you then!

 

[Looking_back]

Just to update those who worry about me. I’ve never been happier or felt closer to Christ than I do now. I’ve left the Catholic Church and have not had even a twinge of pain or regret.

 

[Janet1983]

Ok, it’s off to the stake with you then!

Should I go and get some wood or is that included in the service?

 

[John21652]

Should I go and get some wood or is that included in the service?

Oh, definently BYO stake and wood. And don’t forget the matches.
We only supply the cheer squad.

While we are at it, we will supply the steaks. May as well make a party of it.

 

[Janet1983]

Oh, definently BYO stake and wood. And don’t forget the matches.
We only supply the cheer squad.

While we are at it, we will supply the steaks. May as well make a party of it.

This would actually be funny if it wasn’t for the fact that this was the actual penalty back in the dark ages… and if it wasn’t for the fact that I was named after Joan of Arc.

 

[kage_ar]

Just to update those who worry about me. I’ve never been happier or felt closer to Christ than I do now. I’ve left the Catholic Church and have not had even a twinge of pain or regret.

Satan is very good at throwing good feelings at us when we sin - would people sin if it did NOT feel good?

We are to master our feelings, not let them master us.

 

[kage_ar]

This would actually be funny if it wasn’t for the fact that this was the actual penalty back in the dark ages… and if it wasn’t for the fact that I was named after Joan of Arc.

To joke about leaving Christ in His Church is tacky.

 

[Della]

This would actually be funny if it wasn’t for the fact that this was the actual penalty back in the dark ages… and if it wasn’t for the fact that I was named after Joan of Arc.

Do you know that those burned at the stake were done so by order of their governments, not the Church. People begged to be tried by Church tribunals because they were fair and unbiased. And do you know they were burned because they advocated social anarchy or were opposed to a legitimate heir to the throne, not because they advocated a different belief in Christ or life on other worlds, etc.–that if you read their beliefs you, as a Protestant, wouldn’t agree with them? And do you know that Jeanne de Arc was wrongfully condemned even after a Church commission ordered by the pope had found her innocent of any heresy? Mark Twain did. He wrote a book about it. And do you know it was the English bishops who found her guilty because of national allegiance not because she was guilty of anything? Do you know real history not merely anti-Catholic propaganda that passes for history in some quarters?

And do you also know that the words of the verse you cite in your signature are what Catholics declare silently in their hearts at the elevation of the Sacred Host? Indeed, he is our Lord and our God whom we are privileged to receive because he deigns to come to us under the appearance of bread and wine.

Have you ever asked yourself what you really know vs. what has been told to you and what the difference might be? It’s important to know the truth. Yes?