How the specter of syncretism is being used to islamize the faith

From Wikipedia, syncretism:
Syncretism (/ˈsɪŋkrətɪzəm, ˈsɪn-/)[1] is the practice of combining different beliefs and various schools of thought. Syncretism involves the merging or assimilation of several originally discrete traditions, especially in the theology and mythology of religion, thus asserting an underlying unity and allowing for an inclusive approach to other faiths.

Some would have you believe that anything which resembles Buddhism represents a watering down of Catholic tradition and must be thrown out. I say Siddharta Gautama had probably been aware of various traditions of prayer from around the world including Judaism. So Christian prayer need not be regarded as "watered down by syncretism" if it is a little bit like Metta in some respects.
 
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Maybe you are closer to representing the socioeconomic center of your parish than some. Maybe none around you covet what you have or what you can do. In my haphazardly gleaned opinion, the "submission" that is said to be the meaning of the word Islam refers to submission to spiritual rapport so that covetous parties could usurp and appropriate your best thinking.

I don't claim to be a Catholic anymore. Conditional salvation and the Marxist comments the last Holy Father made (as well as many others) drove me away. If they're just not saving you because they covet rapport with intelligence, then what good will all the orthodoxy do?

Some people seem to want to inventory what a person is doing for redistribution. They can try to suppress or invalidate traditional teaching on premarital relations, for example, because they may covet rapport with intelligence. They'll even say there's nothing unholy about being a "hoe" or getting involved in rock & roll because it "helps people," or, in the words of the Beatles,

"but if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao,
you ain't gonna make it with anyone anyhow"

i.e. don't reveal that you are after the redistribution of intelligence or no one will want your revolution. (from the song Revolution.)

How could our your Church be flirting with Marxism? The whole point may be to give the proletariat the economic power to force the people they envy to leave their spiritual guard down or not be given a good job, so the proletarians could maintain an impure rapport with their abilities. They may even pressure some into lives of being an entertainer through blacklisting and bureaus controlling who gets what job, or even re-education camps and psychiatric commitment for those who are "anti-social" because they pray effectively and and don't want to distribute their soul to the masses. "What doth it profit a man if he gains the whole world but suffers the loss of his soul?" Is that how you would be treated?

Hypothetically, consider whether you would be willing to join a Marxist parish which was much more mentally disadvantaged than you so the parish could tell you there's nothing wrong with getting a job dancing for people so they could form a rapport with intelligence that they do not have. You'd lose your soul, and what good would you be doing helping other people achieve their covets?

Or, what if you simply slowly lost your soul, convinced Canon Law keeps them from abusing the power of conditional salvation to help their friends with your soul? Every time some covetous person envied, hated, or judged you, even if you hadn't had to become a rock star for them, some feel they would form a bit of impurity with you despite not having committed adultery in thought, word, or deed. Then the priest may decide you have too much talent and are not using it well enough and that portion of your soul should be redistributed to the poor. Then, you'd be less and less capable of using your abilities for the glory of God, and by their logic, it would force the priest to let them have yet more of you. They'd probably be permissive with comforts, but you'd just feel emptier and emptier while being assured you were heaven bound.
"...the Marxist comments the last Holy Father made (as well as many others) drove me away." Do you refer to Pope Francis call for Marxists- Christian cooperation? From October 1, 2024 "Pope Francis encouraged the Marxist-Christian dialogue group Dialop to work together for the disadvantaged and against corruption and abuse of power. Christians as well as socialists, Marxists and communists should build a "better, fraternal future" for a world divided by wars and polarization, said Francis at a reception in the Vatican on Wednesday. " https://english.katholisch.de/artikel/50230-pope-marxists-and-christians-have-a-common-mission ?
Some marxists, living in western capitalist economies, are very idealistic, hard working, with a discipline that would protect them from corruption. I know one such individual, and would have no problems working with him on some project, which do not include political agendas. Perhaps that person is closer to God than what he thinks, and his actions are inspired by divine love. I am not called to judge, but to look at people with compassion. I would have problems with idealistic soviets that considered Stalin's killing justified by the revolution. However, many did not, rather saw them as an inescapable fate of human errors and worked at not loosing faith in their ideals. That has some merit.
Now, Pope Francis's Weltanschaung is somehow naive, mostly incomplete. Priests are rarely good political scientists, economists, etc. That is not their area of expertise. Fulton Sheen also had an incomplete vision of Communism, but his errors came from the other side of the political spectrum. He did talk a lot about politics, and I do not think that was good. There is a difference between promoting spirituality above materialism and going deep into politics. The First estate and Gallicanism pre- and through the French Revolution, eventually lead to universal acceptance of the separation of state and Church promoted by our founding fathers. (As well as Catholic unity and alignment under the Pope)
In this case, loose talk about Marxism (perhaps a good intention effort to convert some) increased your confusion and doubts. There are a lot of loose, thoughts in your writing. Not clear how they are connected.
I am very sorry that you are having doubts, ultimately, trust God's love. Read, pray, do not abandon your practices, I hope it will bring you peace of mind.
 
In my opinion, Marxism is secretly about sharing souls because it gives peoples' bureaus the power to control who gets a job and who gets inappropriate psychiatric commitment. It may be that the plan was for the proletariat to immediately realize the possibilities for a return to pre-Abrahamic paganism when they realized they would be in charge of who got what job.
 
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You completely lost me, Marxists are not vampires, they do not collect souls.
Society in Abraham's time was nomadic, there were no jobs as we have them. People could work for themselves or be part of another family and serve there. For example, Jacob, a shepherd, was promised to marry Rachel, the younger daughter of his uncle Laban, in exchange for working seven years tending Laban's flocks.
It seems that you have not read the bible.
 
Do you recall where Abraham came from? The city of Ur of the Chaldees. Some of society in Abraham's time was nomadic.

What does being nomadic have to do with pre-Abrahamic religion?

Do you really think that, bereft of religion, Communists don't abuse one another? You said in another thread that they must not, because it's not mentioned in the book definition of Communism, but it sure seems to give people the power.
 
I think that you do not properly read the messages. There has never been a mention of abuse in my comments. There is the definition of communism: system that aims to replace private property and a profit-based economy with public ownership and communal control of at least the major means of production (e.g., mines, mills, and factories) and the natural resources of a society. Marx/Lenin proposed to assigned work and goods: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs". Then, in a communist regime people pay no taxes and there is hence, no income redistribution.
As for the connection to pre-Abraham pagan religion and proletarians in the Soviet Union in 1917 which you suggested, i do not see it. Pagans believe in god or gods, just not the Abrahamic God of Judaism, Islam and Christianity. Communists, On the other hand, are atheists.
As for nomadic society, in which cities are usually strategically situated along trading routes and their activities drives from trade, the assignation of jobs would be quite different than in the 20 century. In the 20th Century children spent early age in school rather than working to help their families as they did in Biblical time. In nomadic societies, most activity was done in the family, with far less specialization than today. and only sporadic trade. How that would relate to religion, other than understanding the narrative in the bible, escapes me, but you said that the soviet proletariat would want to live in a pre-Abrahamic society. That I doubt. The soviet Union had plans for industrialization and technological advance, a good education was paramount for that.
 
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So far, there's nothing here that warrants suspension, I just ask that everyone keep the conversation charitable.

I'm standing apart from this discussion, as there's really nothing I can add to it. I'll leave it to the posters to define their terms as they see fit, and for others to ask for clarification if they need it.
Thank you for this "So far, there's nothing here that warrants suspension,"
It was the proper intervention at the right time
 
Thank you for this "So far, there's nothing here that warrants suspension,"
It was the proper intervention at the right time

It's a worthy discussion, if a bit rarefied for my tastes. Pope Francis was not wrong, communists can act from motives of altruism and the needs of mankind as they perceive them, which in some ways coincide with Christian solicitude for the poor. It is natural virtue and not supernatural, but those can coincide as well in many cases.

No ideology can steal someone's soul. We are all free agents with free will. And just to restate, finding "conditional salvation" in the conditional administration of sacraments where it is doubtful that the sacraments were originally conferred (as in questions of validity of baptism, confirmation, or holy orders) is a distortion of the concept. It is beyond bizarre to imagine that a priest, out of spite or whatever motive, would withhold internal consent and simulate a sacrament, leaving the penitent under the impression that he had received a valid sacrament, and leaving him bereft of the graces and cure of these sacraments. That is not what conditional administration of sacraments means in the definitions provided by the various catechisms. And Almighty God is not bound by the sacraments, He can pour out His grace however He sees fit.

Anyone who wants to leave the Church can pick things to pieces, and find something they see as problematical, to provide a righteous justification for so doing. Just speaking for myself, I have an issue with not requiring someone who confesses a sin that has done an injustice to someone, to take overt measures to rectify that injustice (such as a criminal turning himself in to the authorities where his crime has inflicted loss upon someone else, or providing needed closure for the victims). Indeed, this point has been hashed back and forth in at least one forum, some saying that this would require the penitent to disclose his confession (which it does not, it says nothing about whether the person has confessed the sin or not), and I do not think I am wrong. The Church surely does require that we be determined to make restitution where our sin has done an injustice to someone else, and as I see it, those who take umbrage with a priest requiring this in the confessional as a condition of absolution, are in error. So it is not at all clear that the Church actually teaches this (viz. that a penitent need not be required to make restitution for injuries), but rather may be an overzealous interpretation of the sanctity of the confessional. I also have an issue with the Church not condemning tattoos as a desecration of the temple of the Holy Ghost (cases of necessity such as for medical purposes aside, such as a "Medic Alert"-type tattoo or imprinting one's blood type, or camouflaging a deformity), but the magisterium does not condemn tattoos, and therefore I cannot either. But I don't use these things as a "gotcha!" moment, imagining that because I have found something that is problematical, that gives me a justification for leaving the Church (assuming I wished to, which I do not).
 
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It's a worthy discussion, if a bit rarefied for my tastes. Pope Francis was not wrong, communists can act from motives of altruism and the needs of mankind as they perceive them, which in some ways coincide with Christian solicitude for the poor. It is natural virtue and not supernatural, but those can coincide as well in many cases.
It was said that Pope Francis did not always had the best choice of words- it seems to apply in this case. The mission of a Marxist believer is to spread Marxism- meaning the ideology comes first, then the system would take care of the poor. I make the distinction, because beside that classmate that I respect, I met a few communists that did not have that compassion. Some Stalinists did not blink at the executions, a Macchiavellian mindset of the end justifies the means. I can understand that some people were upset by Pope Francis's comment; most people close to him, however, knew about the heart of Pope Francis and took his faux-pas with a grain of salt.
I agree, most probably Pope Francis was looking at the altruistic dedication of many soviets who believed in serving the needs to their community.
As an aside, there are a few events in which soviet officials averted disasters, even if doing that risked prosecution as traitors.
Vasili Arkhipov during Cuban missile Crisis:
Stanislav Petrov in 1983 averted a nuclear attack by ignoring a (faulty) signal in the Soviet detection system during a high alert time with the USA
 
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No ideology can steal someone's soul. We are all free agents with free will. And just to restate, finding "conditional salvation" in the conditional administration of sacraments where it is doubtful that the sacraments were originally conferred (as in questions of validity of baptism, confirmation, or holy orders) is a distortion of the concept. It is beyond bizarre to imagine that a priest, out of spite or whatever motive, would withhold internal consent and simulate a sacrament, leaving the penitent under the impression that he had received a valid sacrament, and leaving him bereft of the graces and cure of these sacraments. That is not what conditional administration of sacraments means in the definitions provided by the various catechisms. And Almighty God is not bound by the sacraments, He can pour out His grace however He sees fit.
1. "No ideology can steal someone's soul." - Dissenter may have intended to say that the desperation can break your spirit, sort of "desperation eats the soul"- which is metaphoric rather than literal.
Dissenter it seemed to me, had an issue with language, some confusion about meaning- it would apply to his confusion on "conditional salvation" as well. It is also possible that he is self taught, he seems to have read some advanced books, but needs some guidance/structure to put it all together. He may have been repeating sentences that resonated with him, not fully grasping the context. That is the advantage of having a mentor that can guide your learning. If that is the case, it is much better for him to state the postings that way, asking for feedback, as well as making sure to understand the premise before jumping to a conclusion. Dissenter in particular, needs to pay attention that the conclusion is related to reality rather than philosophical speculation. Example: "I say Siddharta Gautama had probably been aware of various traditions of prayer from around the world including Judaism. So Christian prayer need not be regarded as "watered down by syncretism" if it is a little bit like Metta in some respects."
(i) There is no evidence of influence of Christianity on Buddhism, nor vice versa.
(ii) There are some similarities between Christianity and Buddhism, they are mostly non-scholarly. There seems to be a kinship between Buddhists Monks and their Christian counterpart, a similar focus on purity, search for the divine and a full dedication to compassionate life. That common focus might be the reason that Christian prayer is "a little bit like Metta".
Metta refers to loving-kindness, a practice of cultivating benevolent feelings towards oneself and others.
But it is not evidence of syncretism, in either direction.
A similar analysis would apply to " It is beyond bizarre to imagine that a priest, out of spite or whatever motive, would withhold internal consent and simulate a sacrament, leaving the penitent under the impression that he had received a valid sacrament, and leaving him bereft of the graces and cure of these sacraments. That is not what conditional administration of sacraments means in the definitions provided by the various catechisms"
The arguments of dissenter regarding the sacraments (I read those postings as well) were not related to reality- to the actual doctrine. He took some words of it and then they had their own life- leading to bizarre scenarios- like the one you analyze.
To me, bc of my training, it signals a failure in logic, how to establish causality, how to reason through an argument building different steps- again a sign that he might be self taught and in need of a tutor and of structure.
 
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No ideology can steal someone's soul. We are all free agents with free will.
You can't lose your soul because of ideology? Why, then, do we need salvation?

In another post on this thread, you said "As I have taught my son in homeschool religion class, the first thing you have to do, if you are going to save your soul, is take that thing called "want", dig a hole out in the backyard, and bury it." Venerable Anne Catherine Emmerich wrote that when the blood of our Savior spilled upon the ground, the devil lost much of his power to act through the earth. She claimed ancient Egyptian sorcerers used to summon demons out of the ground and absorb them through the sorcerer's mouth to work spells. And there you are, repeating bad advice to essentially renounce one's soul, if only through visualization or metaphor, into the ground. I hope you and everyone who reads this devotes at least a little prayer to God's creation, especially the earth underneath their feet.

I bet the person who led you astray presented themselves as an oh-so-doctrinally-orthodox believer. That is just a guess. Ask the Lord to undo any such foolishness. Pray and read scripture, for if your parish never questioned you, they may have your homeschooling marked for redistribution.

The point of islamization may be submission to rapport or spiritual communion. The word "Islam" means submission.

And just to restate, finding "conditional salvation" in the conditional administration of sacraments where it is doubtful that the sacraments were originally conferred (as in questions of validity of baptism, confirmation, or holy orders) is a distortion of the concept. It is beyond bizarre to imagine that a priest, out of spite or whatever motive, would withhold internal consent and simulate a sacrament, leaving the penitent under the impression that he had received a valid sacrament, and leaving him bereft of the graces and cure of these sacraments. That is not what conditional administration of sacraments means in the definitions provided by the various catechisms.
The protection you claim is spelled out is not in fact spelled out. Providing examples is not the same as spelling out rules. Many say the Lord was a Communist, so they may have decided those who are not are simply not worthy of grace. They may even mean it with every fiber of their being.
And Almighty God is not bound by the sacraments, He can pour out His grace however He sees fit.
I hope everyone prays for his grace independent of a church whose head has made statements embracing Marxism.

But I don't use these things as a "gotcha!" moment, imagining that because I have found something that is problematical, that gives me a justification for leaving the Church (assuming I wished to, which I do not).
I don't care about tattoos either. However, the fact that the priest seemingly has the power to make his sacraments work the way he picks out, at his own discretion, implies they have stopped intending to make the King of Kings and Lord of Lords really present, and are simply praying for whom they will.

Anyway, my main point stands. The fact that praying from the heart is a little similar to Buddhism's Metta is not prima facie evidence of a melding of two religions or a watering down of Catholic tradition, especially in light of the most important commandment.

Discouragement of the practice may be evidence that some may want to head off the fact that "Almighty God is not bound by his sacraments, He can pour out His grace however He sees fit."
 
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You can't lose your soul because of ideology? Why, then, do we need salvation?

In another post on this thread, you said "As I have taught my son in homeschool religion class, the first thing you have to do, if you are going to save your soul, is take that thing called "want", dig a hole out in the backyard, and bury it." Venerable Anne Catherine Emmerich wrote that when the blood of our Savior spilled upon the ground, the devil lost much of his power to act through the earth. She claimed ancient Egyptian sorcerers used to summon demons out of the ground and absorb them through the sorcerer's mouth to work spells. And there you are, repeating bad advice to essentially renounce one's soul, if only through visualization or metaphor, into the ground. I hope you and everyone who reads this devotes at least a little prayer to God's creation, especially the earth underneath their feet.

I have to imagine you are the only person who has ever commented on the Catholic Church or her practices in this fashion. I do have to say that you certainly have an original slant on things.

True, I was speaking metaphorically, but if it would help someone to renounce their own will, to take a piece of paper, write "want" on it, and bury it, that could be a teaching tool. Certainly the Church teaches that we are to conform our own wills to that of Almighty God in all things. As to "putting words in the earth", you may not be aware of this, but some traditional Catholic communities engage in "burying of the Alleluia" the day before Septuagesima Sunday (70 days, more or less, before Lent). The priest of our congregation actually takes a plaque with the word "Alleluia" engraved on it, puts it in a coffin-like box, and buries it in the parish cemetery, to be dug back up on Easter.

I bet the person who led you astray presented themselves as an oh-so-doctrinally-orthodox believer. That is just a guess. Ask the Lord to undo any such foolishness. Pray and read scripture, for if your parish never questioned you, they may have your homeschooling marked for redistribution.

Nobody "led me astray". My parish is aware of my homeschooling and has no issue with it whatsoever. (What is "redistribution"?)

I don't care about tattoos either. However, the fact that the priest seemingly has the power to make his sacraments work the way he picks out, at his own discretion, implies they have stopped intending to make the King of Kings and Lord of Lords really present, and are simply praying for whom they will.

This is the last time I am going to say this, you misunderstand the concept of conditional administration of sacraments in the Catholic Church.

Conferring sacraments conditionally refers to those instances where certitude of the validity of the originally received sacraments cannot be had (as in a priest from a schismatic community with doubtful orders who wishes to become a Catholic priest, or a layperson who was baptized in a Christian communion whose theology of baptism, ergo intent, cannot be known with certitude, or someone who does not know if they were ever baptized or not).
 
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In my opinion, Marxism is secretly about sharing souls...
I wasn't clear in my first question of this. I shall be more explicit here.
How exactly does one share a soul?

How could Marxism, which is atheistic in nature, have any designs at all towards the soul?
 
Providing examples is not the same as spelling out rules.
One cannot be baptized more then once.
I have seen and heard the priest pronounce during a conditional baptism "If this one is, in fact, not baptized, I baptize you..."

So there you go. The rule. We do not know if the person is baptized. So we baptize conditionally.
If the person is baptized when this begins, then nothing takes place. No sacrament has been conferred.
If the person was not baptized, they are when the ceremony is completed.
 
One cannot be baptized more then once.
I have seen and heard the priest pronounce during a conditional baptism "If this one is, in fact, not baptized, I baptize you..."

So there you go. The rule. We do not know if the person is baptized. So we baptize conditionally.
If the person is baptized when this begins, then nothing takes place. No sacrament has been conferred.
If the person was not baptized, they are when the ceremony is completed.
Exactly. In the case of sacraments administered conditionally, there is verbiage in the form that indicates this. There is no ambiguity as to whether the sacrament is being conferred conditionally or absolutely.
 
I wasn't clear in my first question of this. I shall be more explicit here.
How exactly does one share a soul?

How could Marxism, which is atheistic in nature, have any designs at all towards the soul?
Do you think Communists' only way of knowing about the world is whether they consult ancient religious texts or traditions or Communist ideology?

Both Marx and Engels surely knew religion. They had studied Hegel's philosophy and metaphysics.

They had also experienced the world.

Do you think an atheist would, by virtue of being an atheist, deny anything spiritual or preternatural?
 
Do you think an atheist would, by virtue of being an atheist, deny anything spiritual or preternatural?
Actually I think two things here.
1 - you didn't address the first question.
2 - you have changed from discussion of a political system to discussion of individuals of a particular political persuasion.


Goal posts motion duly noted.
 
Actually I think two things here.
1 - you didn't address the first question.
2 - you have changed from discussion of a political system to discussion of individuals of a particular political persuasion.


Goal posts motion duly noted.
The political system was designed by individuals for individuals so it is not a goal post shift.
 
The political system was designed by individuals for individuals so it is not a goal post shift.
Great. So you can answer the questions.
How exactly does one share a soul?
How could Marxism, which is atheistic in nature, have any designs at all towards the soul?
 
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