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Pixie_Dust
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Read Acts 8:26-39. Nothing about warm fuzzy feelings.
How to answer Protestant about knowing the precise moment of being saved
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guanophore
Guest
This post is a very good summary of the evangelical protestant understanding of salvation. Although not consistent with the teachings handed down to us by the Apostles, it does contain some of the truths found in the teaching of Jesus Christ.
I heard an interesting interpretation of this by an OSAS (“once saved, always saved”) on this board. He said that Paul was just being humble. Paul knew he was saved. Same for all those other passages where Paul indicates that salvation is either in process, or will be completed in the future.
I think this springs from the commandment given in the Great Commission:
“Go ye into all the world and make disciples of all nations”.
It is the evangelical understanding that one must be “saved” and this is the foundation of becoming a disciple of Christ. As a Catholic, you may have been raised as a disciple from birth, so it does not make sense to you that this process would have to have some definitive starting point.
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believers
Guest
Very well said.
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believers
Guest
The born-again experience is difficult to explain. It’s profound. It may be similar to how a woman can’t fully explain what natural birth feels like to a man.
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Pixie_Dust
Guest
But to doubt someone’s salvation because they haven’t had a singular “born-again experience” is arrogant and presumptuous. Even as a Baptist I could not tell someone the time/date that I “got saved.” (Which caused me no end of grief and doubt myself. Imagine hearing every week at the invitation, “If YOU can’t remember a day in your life when you turned from your sins and prayed a sinner’s prayer like I did on March 12, 1963 at 11:30 AM…” and thinking, “Gosh, I don’t remember what the date was…am I really saved???”)
It was not a one-time experience for me, it happened over a period of several months, and is still going on. I have been saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved.
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kaycee
Guest
Certainly there are many who have memorized many prayers from repetition but have no clue what they are saying and really no desire to find out. From my experience most are clock watchers waiting to punch out to fulfill the weekly obligation.The best answer is Romans 10:9 - For if thou confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
In the Creed, Catholics confess with their mouths the Lord Jesus and that God raised Him from the dead every time they’re at Mass. I surely hope no one who professes the Creed every week is lying !
Saying the prayer means nothing if it does not reflect what is in your heart.
Isaiah 29:13. “…these people draw near to me with their mouths, and honour me with their lips, yet have removed their hearts far from me. Moreover, their worship toward me is the doctrines of men.”
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Mickey
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Pixie_Dust
Guest
I’m talking about the Nicene Creed, which is not a prayer, but a profession of faith. It’s not any of our business if someone next to us is standing before God saying, “I believe in Jesus Christ, the only Son of God…” and so on, and doesn’t truly believe it. That’s for God to judge. Certainly there are many who repeat a ‘sinner’s prayer’ after someone during an altar call and sincerely believe that because they’ve done so, they’re saved. And how is it that you know “most are clock watchers”?
This is true no matter where one might attend a worship service. It’s not exclusive to any particular religious affiliation.
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truthnlight
Guest
No priest can forgive anyone’s sins. He can’t even forgive his own sins! Come to think of it, who does forgive the priests sins? Does he go to confession too? If the priest goes directly to God, then why can’t you?
“…who can forgive sins but God only?” (Mark 2:7).
1st John 1:9 states, “If we confess our sins, he (Jesus Christ) is faithful and just to forgive us our sins…” A sinner cannot forgive a sinner on behalf of God. You need Jesus Christ, God Almighty, to forgive your sins and save your soul. Only Jesus has the nail-scared hands and feet; thus, only Jesus has the power and right to forgive your sins. We read in Luke 18:13 that a Publican (a non-religious person) went up to the temple to pray and said, “…God be merciful to me a sinner.” Carefully notice that the man didn’t ask the Pharisee to forgive him, nor did he go to the priest for forgiveness. No, the publican went to GOD ALONE!
We read in Jeremiah 17:5, “Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.” (Mark 7:6-13).7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. 7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
7:11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
7:12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
7:14 And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:
7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
7:16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
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Cardinalsong
Guest
Wow! I can’t tell you how many times that thought went through my mind over the years. Oh, the nightmares I would have about either going to hell or being “left behind” after the rapture (which, of course is for another post-the rapture that is).:bigyikes:But to doubt someone’s salvation because they haven’t had a singular “born-again experience” is arrogant and presumptuous. Even as a Baptist I could not tell someone the time/date that I “got saved.” (Which caused me no end of grief and doubt myself. Imagine hearing every week at the invitation, “If YOU can’t remember a day in your life when you turned from your sins and prayed a sinner’s prayer like I did on March 12, 1963 at 11:30 AM…” and thinking, “Gosh, I don’t remember what the date was…am I really saved???”)
It was not a one-time experience for me, it happened over a period of several months, and is still going on. I have been saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved.
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Angainor
Guest
I was saved 2000 years ago at Calvary.
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lak611
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Yes, he does. Even the pope goes to confession.
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Cat
Guest
truthnlight, it is not a “tradition of man” that we go to the priest for forgiveness of sins. It is a teaching in the Bible.
Use your concordance and do a more thorough search of confession of sins. Don’t ignore the verses in James 5:16and also the teachings of Jesus in John 20: 22-23.
And I respectfully suggest that you do a more thorough study of the Catholic doctrine of Confession. Your post demonstrates some misunderstanding and incorrect ideas about what “Confession” is. When you study, you will see that we don’t believe a “priest” forgives our sins. Jesus forgives our sins. Here is a nice link to the explanation right here on Catholic Answers:
catholic.com/library/Forgiveness_of_Sins.asp
BTW, I was evangelical Protestant for over 40 years. I grew up in a church pastored by people like Gary Smalley. I’m now Catholic, and I think you would be surprised that the “Gospel Message” that you presented is something that Catholics already do. If you attend Mass, you will see that during every Mass, Catholics pray to our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and renew their committment to Him. In Confession and outside of Confession (venial sins), we ask the Lord to forgive our sins.
And we rely 100% on Christ to take us to heaven. In every Mass, we are reminded that it is only by the mercy of the Lord Jesus that we can have any hope of heaven.
You’re preachin’ to the choir! We already do these things.
When I was Protestant, I didn’t rely on Jesus to get me to heaven. I relied on a work that I had done, the fact that I had accepted Jesus into my heart as my personal Savior. I couldn’t name the date, but I could name the year, the place, and the situation.
My salvation was because of a work that I had done–the praying of a prayer.
he Catholic Church teaches that we are saved BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH." This is what the Bible teaches. No work, no effort, no prayer, on my part, will save me. All the good that I do, all the faith that I have–it is all a gift of God.
I hope that along with studying the Catholic Church teaching about Confession, you will consider studying the teaching about salvation. This website is a good place to start.
Use your concordance and do a more thorough search of confession of sins. Don’t ignore the verses in James 5:16and also the teachings of Jesus in John 20: 22-23.
And I respectfully suggest that you do a more thorough study of the Catholic doctrine of Confession. Your post demonstrates some misunderstanding and incorrect ideas about what “Confession” is. When you study, you will see that we don’t believe a “priest” forgives our sins. Jesus forgives our sins. Here is a nice link to the explanation right here on Catholic Answers:
catholic.com/library/Forgiveness_of_Sins.asp
BTW, I was evangelical Protestant for over 40 years. I grew up in a church pastored by people like Gary Smalley. I’m now Catholic, and I think you would be surprised that the “Gospel Message” that you presented is something that Catholics already do. If you attend Mass, you will see that during every Mass, Catholics pray to our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and renew their committment to Him. In Confession and outside of Confession (venial sins), we ask the Lord to forgive our sins.
And we rely 100% on Christ to take us to heaven. In every Mass, we are reminded that it is only by the mercy of the Lord Jesus that we can have any hope of heaven.
You’re preachin’ to the choir! We already do these things.
When I was Protestant, I didn’t rely on Jesus to get me to heaven. I relied on a work that I had done, the fact that I had accepted Jesus into my heart as my personal Savior. I couldn’t name the date, but I could name the year, the place, and the situation.
My salvation was because of a work that I had done–the praying of a prayer.
he Catholic Church teaches that we are saved BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH." This is what the Bible teaches. No work, no effort, no prayer, on my part, will save me. All the good that I do, all the faith that I have–it is all a gift of God.
I hope that along with studying the Catholic Church teaching about Confession, you will consider studying the teaching about salvation. This website is a good place to start.
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truthnlight
Guest
“Jesus Christ, the Son of God, gave the Church the power to forgive sins when he breathed on the Apostles and said: ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven.’ (John 20 22:23)” The above quote made by a Catholic didn’t FULLY quote John 20:23 which states, “Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.” If what the Catholic church teaches is true (i.e., that priests have been given the power to forgive sin), then it must also be true that they have been given the power to REFUSE to forgive your sins. If this is true, then it creates a serious doctrinal contradiction in the teachings of Christ, who said in Matthew 6:15, “But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” Clearly, we have a discrepancy here. If priests did have the power to forgive your sins, and didn’t, it would be a sin. So what did Jesus mean in John 20:23? To understand John 20:23, you need to consider Romans 1:16, “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth…” The Gospel (good news) of Jesus Christ is the POWER which opens the gates of Heaven to those who obey it; BUT, it is also the POWER which will send them to Hell forever if they do not obey it (2nd Thessalonians 1:8). Jesus simply explained to the Apostles that by preaching the GOSPEL, they held the keys to Heaven and Hell. Those who believed the Gospel were forgiven; those who didn’t, weren’t.
To claim that Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive sin is blasphemy. We’ve already seen that there is only ONE MEDIATOR between God the Father and men, the man Christ Jesus (1st Timothy 2:5). We’ve also read in Mathew 6:15 that God requires us to forgive others, it’s not an option. In addition, not one mention is made anywhere in the New Testament of an Apostle ever forgiving someone’s sins. This FACT alone speaks volumes against the Catholic religion. Out of all the sermons recorded in the New Testament by the Apostles, not one mention is ever made of an Apostle having the power to forgive someone’s sins. When Stephen preached the Gospel in Acts 7, he never offered to forgive anyone’s sins. When Peter preached the Gospel on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2, he never offered to forgive anyone’s sins. When Paul witnessed to King Agrippa in Acts 26, he didn’t offer to forgive the king’s sins. Notice what Peter said to Simon, the former sorcerer, when Simon tried to buy God’s power … “Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.” The Apostle Peter told Simon to pray to GOD for forgiveness! Peter didn’t claim the power to forgive Simon’s sins, nor did Peter tell him to go find a confessional booth. In all the letters which the Apostle Paul wrote to the New Testament churches, he never mentioned or taught anything about the power to forgive another’s sins.
To claim that Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive sin is blasphemy. We’ve already seen that there is only ONE MEDIATOR between God the Father and men, the man Christ Jesus (1st Timothy 2:5). We’ve also read in Mathew 6:15 that God requires us to forgive others, it’s not an option. In addition, not one mention is made anywhere in the New Testament of an Apostle ever forgiving someone’s sins. This FACT alone speaks volumes against the Catholic religion. Out of all the sermons recorded in the New Testament by the Apostles, not one mention is ever made of an Apostle having the power to forgive someone’s sins. When Stephen preached the Gospel in Acts 7, he never offered to forgive anyone’s sins. When Peter preached the Gospel on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2, he never offered to forgive anyone’s sins. When Paul witnessed to King Agrippa in Acts 26, he didn’t offer to forgive the king’s sins. Notice what Peter said to Simon, the former sorcerer, when Simon tried to buy God’s power … “Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.” The Apostle Peter told Simon to pray to GOD for forgiveness! Peter didn’t claim the power to forgive Simon’s sins, nor did Peter tell him to go find a confessional booth. In all the letters which the Apostle Paul wrote to the New Testament churches, he never mentioned or taught anything about the power to forgive another’s sins.
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mayra_hart
Guest
Matt. 9:8 - this verse shows that God has given the authority to forgive sins to “men.” Hence, those Protestants who acknowledge that the apostles had the authority to forgive sins (which this verse demonstrates) must prove that this gift ended with the apostles. Otherwise, the apostles’ successors still possess this gift. Where in Scripture is the gift of authority to forgive sins taken away from the apostles or their successors? and i quoted from a former BAPTIST " No priest claims to forgive sins through his own power. He is standing in for christ,as it were. Because catholics believe deeply in the mystical body of christ ( Jesus referred to it and Paul explicitly taught it),they can say that in forgiving us jesus use one part of his body— the vocal chords of a particular priest. I promise, O blessed St. Jude, to be ever mindful of this great favor, to always honor you as my special and powerful patron, and to gratefully encourage devotion to you by publishing this request. Amen
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otakemyhandlove
Guest
You’re friend can’t be convinced of your ideology because he knows what he knows. A little article isn’t going to convince him against the experience he’s had. It is a biblical experience to feel the holy spirit in you, read act 1. We are called to be baptised by the holy spirit. I don’t care what any catholic doctrine teaches, if the bible contradicts it, catholics are wrong.
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tdgesq
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The word “know” means something. When we say that we know we are saved, at a minimum it means that 1) we believe it; 2) that it is true; and 3) that we have a justification for it.
Believing in itself is not knowledge. We believe things all the time and are later proven to be wrong. This belief must correspond to what is actually the case to be true. This brings us to the last condition of knowledge - that we have justification for our claim. And this is where the osas theory falls flat.
Feelings of euphoria are not a justification of our beliefs. Otherwise, I could use the euphoria I feel while praying to the Blessed Virgin as justification that she indeed hears my prayers and intervenes on my behalf to Jesus. No Protestant would accept this, yet they expect us to accept their claims that they are saved based upon their feelings. They could appeal to God’s divine revelation (Scripture) for justification, but that doesn’t work since osas is unscriptural.
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Cat
Guest
truthnlight, there is a Catholic response to your post, but this isn’t the thread. Please take it to another thread so that this thread can stay OT.
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Curious
Guest
The Nicene Creed is quoted every Sunday at Mass right?
We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. **
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end. **
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
Wouldn’t professing and believing this fulfill the Protestant “recipe” for salvation? (Romans 10:9,10)
No, of course no one can say for sure if the Catholic who says this really means and believes it. Just like no one can say for sure if the Protestant who has his/her “salvation experience” by saying the sinner’s prayer really means and believes it.
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Pixie_Dust
Guest
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