How to answer Protestant about knowing the precise moment of being saved

[tomarin]

about this “once saved, always saved” business:

1- do all protestants believe this? or just one subsection such as evangelicals or born again christians (which i believe are different ways of referring to the same movement or group). if only evangelicals believe this, how does that affect their views of mainstream protestants?

2 - it seems to me this doctrine goes against the spirit if not the letter of all of christ’s teachings. if you are “saved” once and forever, and thus guaranteed to go to heaven, what happens if you sin gravely after you’ve had this “saved” experience? surely given human nature this happens all the time. why would god allow people who had deliberately not followed his will into heaven?

can someone explain the protestant point of view on these issues to me?

 

[lak611]

about this “once saved, always saved” business:

1- do all protestants believe this? or just one subsection such as evangelicals or born again christians (which i believe are different ways of referring to the same movement or group). if only evangelicals believe this, how does that affect their views of mainstream protestants?

Not all Protestants believe this. This is part of Reformed theology, based on Calvinism. Arminianism is the opposite. From Wikipedia

Salvation can be lost, as continued salvation is conditional upon continued faith

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by upbeatjonm forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
*Thanks, do you know of any good written article that I could share with him to express this from a Catholic viewpoint? I agree with what you say. He is very convinced of his saving moment, and I hope he is right (for his sake). I’m sure the spirit is capable of doing this, but it is not a mandatory sign of being saved.

Jon*

You’re friend can’t be convinced of your ideology because he knows what he knows. A little article isn’t going to convince him against the experience he’s had. It is a biblical experience to feel the holy spirit in you, read act 1. We are called to be baptised by the holy spirit. I don’t care what any catholic doctrine teaches, if the bible contradicts it, catholics are wrong.

You’re absolutely correct. No one can convince anyone else of a theological point until they are ready to be convinced, for whatever reason that might be.

And you’re also right that if the bible contradicts catholic doctrine then “catholics are wrong”.

Fortunately, that can’t happen, so we needn’t worry about it, and can continue to be agreeable with one another.

Oh,… by the way,… I have yet to meet a Catholic who hasn’t been “baptised by the Holy Spirit”, and hasn’t felt that anointing in a very real way.

Some Catholics just get so used to the experience, that they don’t communicate their “zing!” very well to others because it’s simply part of who they are.

Best to you…!

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[upbeatjonm]

You’re friend can’t be convinced of your ideology because he knows what he knows. A little article isn’t going to convince him against the experience he’s had. It is a biblical experience to feel the holy spirit in you, read act 1. We are called to be baptised by the holy spirit. I don’t care what any catholic doctrine teaches, if the bible contradicts it, catholics are wrong.

By having an article or book to show, especially something heavy with Bible verses, would go a long way to help convince him, rather than me just explaining in my own words.

Jon

 

[Pixie_Dust]

By having an article or book to show, especially something heavy with Bible verses, would go a long way to help convince him, rather than me just explaining in my own words.

Jon

You can tell him what I said upthread. I was an independent, fundamental, pre-millenial, KJV-Only Baptist and to this day I couldn’t tell you the precise moment of my salvation. Just like the guy who was born blind that Jesus heals in John Ch 9, “One thing I know, I was blind but now I can see!” Everyone does not have a Damascus Road experience.

Oh, and if you’re trying to convince him of your salvation, tell him that 1) You profess that Jesus died for your salvation and rose again the third day at every Mass, and if he believes Romans 10:9 then that should suffice.

and 2) God is the one who ultimately decides who’s saved, not us.

 

[Zooey]

I was saved 2000 years ago at Calvary.

Me, too!!

about this “once saved, always saved” business:

1- do all protestants believe this? or just one subsection such as evangelicals or born again christians (which i believe are different ways of referring to the same movement or group). if only evangelicals believe this, how does that affect their views of mainstream protestants?

OSAS is believed only by a minority of non-Catholic Christians. Most who do, are either Presbyterian or Baptist.

2 - it seems to me this doctrine goes against the spirit if not the letter of all of christ’s teachings. if you are “saved” once and forever, and thus guaranteed to go to heaven, what happens if you sin gravely after you’ve had this “saved” experience? surely given human nature this happens all the time. why would god allow people who had deliberately not followed his will into heaven?

Ah, yes…The voice of reason!! All the OSAS talk in the world, and you have just cut right through it, my friend!! The truth is, that OSAS makes no sense, in the light of the plain teaching of Scripture…

can someone explain the protestant point of view on these issues to me?

:tiphat: Your Friendly Neighborhood Methodist here…

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

A good friend of our family is protestant. He says that at the moment you are saved, you can feel the presence of the Holy Spirit within you. This saving moment is very profound. He knows the precise moment he was saved, and can feel the spirit within him.

My question is this; as a Catholic, I have received the sacraments, was baptized as an infant, etc. I have never had a moment which swept me off my feet. He says that indicates that I haven’t been saved. How do I best answer that?

Jon

Do a search on the words “eternal life”, it has three modes, past, present and yet fulture.

 

[mayra_hart]

1 Peter 1:5:
Peter opens his First Epistle by exclaiming that we are kept through faith for salvation. But Peter immediately goes on to say that *“if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourself throughout the time of your stay here in fear” *(1 Pe. 1:17). This is not a call to self-assurance, but rather a call to “let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall” (1 Cor. 10:12).

 

[teachccd]

The Nicene Creed is quoted every Sunday at Mass right?

We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. **
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end. **
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Wouldn’t professing and believing this fulfill the Protestant “recipe” for salvation? (Romans 10:9,10)

No, of course no one can say for sure if the Catholic who says this really means and believes it. Just like no one can say for sure if the Protestant who has his/her “salvation experience” by saying the sinner’s prayer really means and believes it.

This creed was written in reponse to the Arian heresy that states that Jesus is not God. This is a trinitarian declaration and demonstrates the oneness of the three persons of God. This is not a formulaic declaration for our salvation but rather a firm understanding of the nature of our God. To recognize this at every Mass is to acknowledge who God is before rendering our ultimate worship in the Eucharist…Hope this helps… teachccd

 

[teachccd]

The Nicene Creed is quoted every Sunday at Mass right?

We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. **
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end. **
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Wouldn’t professing and believing this fulfill the Protestant “recipe” for salvation? (Romans 10:9,10)

**No, of course no one can say for sure if the Catholic who says this really means and believes it. **Just like no one can say for sure if the Protestant who has his/her “salvation experience” by saying the sinner’s prayer really means and believes it.

OOPS!! One more thought. Any “Catholic” who does not believe in the contents of the Nicene Creed not only cannot call him/herself Catholic but cannot rightfully claim to be Christian. One would have to be out of the orthodox realm of Christiantiy to deny this declaration. Jehovahs Witnesses and Mormons and other self proclaimed “Christians” would fall out of this pail of orthodoxy.

 

[Curious]

This is not a formulaic declaration for our salvation but rather a firm understanding of the nature of our God

Oh, I know that. I was just saying that when it comes right down to it, this quote fulfills the Protestant demand of “confession with the mouth (and believing with the heart) and you shall be saved” (Romans 10: 9,10). I was not saying that was the intention of the creed.

One more thought. Any “Catholic” who does not believe in the contents of the Nicene Creed not only cannot call him/herself Catholic but cannot rightfully claim to be Christian

I agree, but we still can’t look into each other’s mind, soul, etc.

To teachccd: Btw…I haven’t fallen off the face of the earth! I’m OOT and busier than I thought. I haven’t forgotten, I promise. I will resume shortly.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

A good friend of our family is protestant. He says that at the moment you are saved, you can feel the presence of the Holy Spirit within you. This saving moment is very profound. He knows the precise moment he was saved, and can feel the spirit within him.

My question is this; as a Catholic, I have received the sacraments, was baptized as an infant, etc. I have never had a moment which swept me off my feet. He says that indicates that I haven’t been saved. How do I best answer that?

Jon

1. I think that emphasis on the importance of knowing when one the saving moment happened is largely a Methodist thing. It is certainly not regarded by all Evangelical Protestants as something one has to be able to remember.
2. God saves as & when He Wills - our lack of awareness =/= lack of His saving activity.
3. Salvation is possessed now, is an object of hope as something not yet possessed fully, & is fully possessed only in Heaven. The NT says this:

• 2Cor 1:18 As surely as God is faithful, our word to you has not been Yes and No.
• 2Cr 1:19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, whom we preached among you, Silvanus and Timothy and I, was not Yes and No; but in him it is always Yes.
• 2Cr 1:20 For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why we utter the Amen through him, to the glory of God.
• 2Cr 1:21 But it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has commissioned us;
• 2Cr 1:22 he has put his seal upon us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee
• 2Cor 5:5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
• Eph 1:9 For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ
• Eph 1:10 as a plan for the fulness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
• Eph 1:11 In him, according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will,
• Eph 1:12 we who first hoped in Christ have been destined and appointed to live for the praise of his glory.
• Eph 1:13 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
• Eph 1:14 which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory.
  “guarantee” = “first instalment”; “pledge” in the AV/KJV

 

[teachccd]

I agree, but we still can’t look into each other’s mind, soul, etc.

To teachccd: Btw…I haven’t fallen off the face of the earth! I’m OOT and busier than I thought. I haven’t forgotten, I promise. I will resume shortly.

Fair enough… I’m slow, what is OOT?? Take your time and resume at your convenience…God Bless

 

[Zooey]

1. I think that emphasis on the importance of knowing when one the saving moment happened is largely a Methodist thing.

:nope: I’m not saying that there may not be people in the wide world of the Wesleyan tradition, who hold to this…Just that, as a Methodist, I have not encountered it. More from Presbyterains, actually.

It is certainly not regarded by all Evangelical Protestants as something one has to be able to remember.

True…and thank goodness for that. I feel really sorry for people who are being oppressed by the idea.

 

[happygal]

A good friend of our family is protestant. He says that at the moment you are saved, you can feel the presence of the Holy Spirit within you. This saving moment is very profound. He knows the precise moment he was saved, and can feel the spirit within him.

My question is this; as a Catholic, I have received the sacraments, was baptized as an infant, etc. I have never had a moment which swept me off my feet. He says that indicates that I haven’t been saved. How do I best answer that?

Jon

**Hi Upbeatjonm

I guess your frez wasn’t sure to use the correct wording in explaining his strong presence of Holy Spirit. First of all , nobody can actually tell you whether they are saved or not saved, just that we choose to believe in according to what we have being taught. **

 

[happygal]

The moment you know you are saved is the moment of Judgment Day when Jesus says “well done my good and faithful servant”. Do not expect your friend to understand that, as he believes in the false theology of “once saved, always saved”.

**Ike, do not assume that upbeatjonm’s frez believes in OSAS. Do not speaks on behalf of others to make an answer basic on your own assumption. **

This is not Catholic doctrine. Also, salvation is not “a feeling”. It’s not dependent upon your subjective experience. It’s an objective action of God infusing your sould with grace, followed by a lifetime of faith working in love.

How can your friend say for sure that the “feeling” he had was real? Who’s to say it wasn’t false? What if he loses that “feeling”? This type of teaching is quite dangerous, both to those who do not have any sort of “extraordinary” experience as well as to those who cannot possibly maintain it their whole life through.

**Ike, the moment Holy Spirit touches you, you will 100% know, don’t ever tell me CC did not teaches you how to differentiate Holy Spirit / Satan. And if you have being a Catholic for very long and have being partaking Holy Communion for a long time and yet do not know the presence of Holy Spirit, then maybe you should take sometime to examine your heart. Do note that not everyone can have that strong presence anointing of Holy Spirit, so do not think that those protestant who can feel the strong presence are some weird pple and challenge them about their SO CALLED FEELING is true anot, for you are challenging God himself and therefore do not assume you are not. Different pple experience Holy Spirit in different ways, some merely the strong presence , other an intense outpour of the spirit (which my Catholic’s frez shared with me that his mom had) and becoz CC teaches that this kind of feeling might not be 100% Holy Spirit thus those Catholic who maybe in fact touches by Holy Spirit thinks that they are not and begin to close their heart up and eventually the outpour of spirit will stop. Note that only those who really open themselves up will able to feel the presence of Holy Spirit and do not think that Holy Spirit can comes easily to everyone, even if he wanted to, but if your heart is close he will not able to enter at all.

One thing you speaks well was that salvation is not a feeling. The OP frez does not use better words in expressing his presence of Holy Spirit and therefore ended using some misunderstanding quote that led the OP thinks that salvation is merely just a feeling.**

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Fair enough… I’m slow, what is OOT?? Take your time and resume at your convenience…God Bless

From the context - Out Of…- what ? Town, perhaps ?​

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

:nope: I’m not saying that there may not be people in the wide world of the Wesleyan tradition, who hold to this…Just that, as a Methodist, I have not encountered it. More from Presbyterains, actually…

I’m very surprised to hear that - it sounds unPresbyterian, & just the sort of thing that a believer in entire sanctification might say: which I thought was a Wesleyan distinctive.​

 

[lak611]

Fair enough… I’m slow, what is OOT??

out of town?? maybe

 

[lak611]

:nope: I’m not saying that there may not be people in the wide world of the Wesleyan tradition, who hold to this…Just that, as a Methodist, I have not encountered it. More from Presbyterains, actually.

I have never heard any Methodist say that either. It seems to be more of a Baptist thing around my neck of the woods.