How To Be A Traditional Catholic In A Liberal Parish?

[ericka1701]

I also live in rural Tennessee… My town has 8000 people in it and besides my parish a few miles away, the closest Catholic Church is 30 miles away. If you’re close to Knoxville, it is most definately worth the drive to Clinton to St. Therese. I still attend my parish most Sundays, but I will go to St Therese at least once during the week. Fr. John Orr is the only priest I have met that still wears a cassock, and he uses incense even in daily mass. Plus, he held the very first TLM in this area 4 years ago. I don’t know him that well, but from what I can tell from what little I have talked to him, his seems very traditional.

My own parish runs more towards the liberal side, as far as the music goes. Plus, I seem to be the rare 22 year old that still wears at least a pair of dress slacks (most of the times it is a long skirt) instead of jeans and tees. It is bearable for me to be able to attend, and I even enjoy attending at times, because I do go to a more traditional mass during the week. I have started (at times… old habits die hard sometimes, though) receiving on the tounge since I have attended. The first time I did that, my priest gave me a bit of a questioning look, but hasn’t said anything about it. I’m not the only one at my home parish that receives on the tounge, though, so I think the look was questioning why I was changing, not a disapproval of the act itself.

I will be praying for you, and God Bless!

Ericka

 

[The_Prodigal]

This makes me ask, are there, or are there not rules about attending and financially supporting the parish in which you live?

It** is** a sacrifice and an act of heroic virtue for me to sit through a noisy liberal mass a mile from my house. It is not a sacrifice for me to “church hop” and drive 12 miles to a holy faithful tradtional Dominican parish.

My greatest concern is that I’m sacrificing my own children’s spiritual development and catechesis on the altar of…what…? My spirit of obedience to stick it out at my local parish when I don’t want to be there?

I’m sure someone here will correct me if I have it wrong, but I am under the impression that you may attend Mass at either church. If travelling outside the parish bounds means that the church you attend is in a different diocese from where you live, you would still be under the jurisdiction of the diocese where you live.

 

[The_Prodigal]

I’m sure someone here will correct me if I have it wrong, but I am under the impression that you may attend Mass at either church.

I was wrong. Your pastor is the pastor of the parish where you reside:

Can. 107 §1. Through both domicile and quasi-domicile, each person acquires his or her pastor and ordinary.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I’m not sure about that canon. I had to get permission to join my cathedral parish in 1984 but it is my understanding that such permission is not necessary today. We had 200 parishoners in 1984 and we have over 2,000 families today. Anyone from the diocese can join the cathedral parish. Local rule?

Gotta love cathedral parishes!

 

[Sarabande]

I’m not sure about that canon. I had to get permission to join my cathedral parish in 1984 but it is my understanding that such permission is not necessary today. We had 200 parishoners in 1984 and we have over 2,000 families today. Anyone from the diocese can join the cathedral parish. Local rule?

Gotta love cathedral parishes!

I think it may depend on dioceses. Our current parish is the cathedral parish of our diocese as well, but we needed to request a letter of permission from the pastor of the parish where we were assigned to be in. We were active within the cathedral parish for a few years since college and finally joined as real parishioners just last year. But from what I understand, if parisioners request permission to be parishioners at the cathedral, it is usually not as difficult a task as asking to be parishioners in a neighboring local parish.

 

[ForMary]

Just a couple of things.

1. 
   *] Go where God leads you. Pray about this and then listen for His answer.
   *] There are rules to being Catholic and they have been mentioned (and muddled) in this thread a bit. Amoung them (but not limited to) are;
   1. 
      *] Attend Mass on all holy days of obligation (ALL Sundays are holy days of obligation).
      *] Provide for the needs of the Church. (This is not necessarily the parish within your boundaries, but the Church).
      
      *] It took a lot for me to transfer from the communion rail to standing and receiving communion and then AGAIN, when the receiving it in the hand came down it was another difficult step for me. So, I feel your sense of loss here, but I learned to look at it in the tradition of the last supper, Jesus did not lay the bread on their tounge, but passed the loaf to each who took it in their hands. This helped me.
      *] Of course God doesn’t care how we are dressed for Mass the important thing is that we come. Having said that, let me say this, I have taught my children (who of course are pointing out what the other kids are wearing) that we dress for respect of what we are doing. Would you go to Karate class in a tutu? Would you wear a football jearsey to a wedding? Then, make an effort to dress and groom for Mass. I am not saying implicitly or explicitly that this should cause a hardship, but to look your best, if you have the possibility and choose not to, does say something.
      *] Genuflecting…again, I know what you mean, but it doesn’t stop me from doing it or from correcting my children, should they fail to (my youngest is 14). Also, I have noticed that when others see me do it, they genuflect.
      *] My sons (aged 20 and 14) when stepping out for communion have been taught to wait for the females to exit the row first. My father and all the men I grew up watching at Mass did this, I have chosen to continue the tradition.
      *] We are many parts, but one body, we have many thoughts and gifts, but we are of one Church. Mass is an important part of my life (and it sounds like yours too) celebrate it as you can within the setting you find yourself. If it is not practical, but still possible to cross parish boundaries, then go to another farther away.
      
      But most importantly let me ask you, you speak about what you want from Mass and the Church. What does God want of you?
      
      May His goodness light your way,
      ForMary

 

[Aineiora]

Just a couple of things.

1. 
   *] Go where God leads you. Pray about this and then listen for His answer.
   *] There are rules to being Catholic and they have been mentioned (and muddled) in this thread a bit. Amoung them (but not limited to) are;
   1. 
      *] Attend Mass on all holy days of obligation (ALL Sundays are holy days of obligation).
      *] Provide for the needs of the Church. (This is not necessarily the parish within your boundaries, but the Church).
      
      *] It took a lot for me to transfer from the communion rail to standing and receiving communion and then AGAIN, when the receiving it in the hand came down it was another difficult step for me. So, I feel your sense of loss here, but I learned to look at it in the tradition of the last supper, Jesus did not lay the bread on their tounge, but passed the loaf to each who took it in their hands. This helped me.
      *] Of course God doesn’t care how we are dressed for Mass the important thing is that we come. Having said that, let me say this, I have taught my children (who of course are pointing out what the other kids are wearing) that we dress for respect of what we are doing. Would you go to Karate class in a tutu? Would you wear a football jearsey to a wedding? Then, make an effort to dress and groom for Mass. I am not saying implicitly or explicitly that this should cause a hardship, but to look your best, if you have the possibility and choose not to, does say something.
      *] Genuflecting…again, I know what you mean, but it doesn’t stop me from doing it or from correcting my children, should they fail to (my youngest is 14). Also, I have noticed that when others see me do it, they genuflect.
      *] My sons (aged 20 and 14) when stepping out for communion have been taught to wait for the females to exit the row first. My father and all the men I grew up watching at Mass did this, I have chosen to continue the tradition.
      *] We are many parts, but one body, we have many thoughts and gifts, but we are of one Church. Mass is an important part of my life (and it sounds like yours too) celebrate it as you can within the setting you find yourself. If it is not practical, but still possible to cross parish boundaries, then go to another farther away.
      
      But most importantly let me ask you, you speak about what you want from Mass and the Church. What does God want of you?
      
      May His goodness light your way,
      ForMary

1. 1. 
      Oh! I like the way you think! Thanks for the thoughful comments!

 

[brotherhrolf]

I think it may depend on dioceses. Our current parish is the cathedral parish of our diocese as well, but we needed to request a letter of permission from the pastor of the parish where we were assigned to be in. We were active within the cathedral parish for a few years since college and finally joined as real parishioners just last year. But from what I understand, if parisioners request permission to be parishioners at the cathedral, it is usually not as difficult a task as asking to be parishioners in a neighboring local parish.

Insofar as I know, the cathedral parish is open to anyone within the diocese. We had to jump through hoops in the early 80s to join but I don’t think it is that way now. Like I’ve said, I’ve see us go from 200 parishoners in 1983 to 2,000 families foday.

 

[Schnitz]

Mels:

However, when I go to the Novus Ordo with my family (they refuse to go with me to TLM)

My family refuses to go to TLM with me too! I don’t understand it. However, I have convinced them to go to Midnight mass with me at my TLM church. So excited!

 

[wisdomseeker]

I am glad i came here.

i am going through the same in my parish. i dont have any CC around me that is conservative. i dont know what is going on, i thought the CC was going to get better after BXVI became pope. i dont see this is hapenning.

my heart aches when i see this new priest clapping and making people clapping. i just want to get out of there. many parishioners loves and agree with him. i just cant understant it.

i dont want to get in trouble with the priest again. i have said something and got in trouble for it. i dont want to be the judge, although i like the other priest, i find him also a little to liberal.

i see this Church going down the wrong direction. sometimes i cant keep quiet.

i am very confused. the CC is not the same i knew once.

help please.

i cant stand the lack of respect, the jokes from the priest, conversation with the people during homily. the good morning greetings at the beginning of the Mass.

what is going on?

May God help us all.

 

[ericka1701]

my heart aches when i see this new priest clapping and making people clapping. i just want to get out of there. many parishioners loves and agree with him. i just cant understant it.

i cant stand the lack of respect, the jokes from the priest, conversation with the people during homily. the good morning greetings at the beginning of the Mass.

You must go to my parish. It does bother me greatly, but my priest’s theological and moral understanding is in agreement with the Church, even if aspects of the liturgy aren’t to my liking. Today was “particularly bad” as far as conversating with people during the homily, and his good friend, another priest concelebrated with him today, so the homily, and the whole mass was like a comedic routine. I was very irritated but it WAS funny (you had to be there), and couldn’t help but laugh, which irritated me all the more. With that said, I did still feel the Lord’s presence, and through the power of the Holy Spirit, I did hear what I was meant to hear and hopefully learn what I was meant to learn.

Please note that after I attended my first TLM, I ordered a 1962 missal and signed up for the first instruction I could. I am absolutely speechless and awed when I celebrate a TLM. “Be still and know that I am God” very much happens for me there. I would not mind if all offered Masses were in that form, but that is not my call. I would like to see more reverance in Mass, and hope and pray that changes will be made. But I will perservere either way, with the help and grace of God.

God Bless!
Ericka

 

[childofmary1143]

I am one of a few people that receive communion on tongue, etc. When I tried to receive communion kneeling it caused a scene and I have not attempted since. The priest has asked that we not do that, so I haven’t.

The Vatican has said that we can kneel for communion so he is wrong about that.

I am trying to discern a vocation to the priesthood, so I naturally went to my priest for spiritual direction, I knew he was liberal but had no idea until I talked with him for this long. He is for a married priesthood, ordination of women,

One can’t be a Catholic in good standing and support the ordination of women.

further liberalization of the mass, referred to the Vatican as a good 'ol boy’s club and explained that was the reason we did not have women priests.

He is very wrong and is causing scandal.

He thinks it is odd that I go to weekly confession

Does he think that Hell is odd?

and come to mass numerous times a week.

Wow. So sad.

He thinks its odder still that I want the tridentine mass and am drawn to numerous aspects of pre-Vatican II culture. He has bluntly stated that I cannot long for these things because I have never experienced them.

I know that some of the people here jumped on one of the posters for suggesting not attending this local church at all, but if these things are true then couldn’t it be said that the Priest is a heretic and henceforth his Masses are invalid?

IrishDude, have you ever attended masses there where instead of the hosts, they would use loaves? I ask that because if they do it invalidates the Mass due to lack of proper form.

Even if the Priest isn’t a heretic, this is more than just a few distractions.

 

[Schnitz]

childofmary1143:

The Vatican has said that we can kneel for communion so he is wrong about that.

Yes, the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) quite clearly states that we can’t be refused communion if we receive it on our knees. See below:
GIRM:

1. The priest then takes the paten or ciborium and goes to the communicants, who, as a rule, approach in a procession.

The faithful are not permitted to take the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice by themselves and, still less, to hand them from one to another. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm. …

Please note that the emphasis is mine.

 

[ConservativeOne]

There’s alot I’d like to say on this - but am holding back.

I will agree with others that you should shop around for another parish, and many Traditional Catholics know the difficulty in this - no matter what area. If you’re thinking you stick out like a sore thumb when receiving on the tongue - just think about Christians of old - who stuck to their beliefs…and died for them. Embarassment? It’s a much less costly price providing you’re not doing it defiantly but strictly out of reverence.

God bless you and may Our Lady intercede for you. Ask St. Anthony or St. Rita (I think) who are known for finding things - to help you find a parish that’s for you. In the meantime, remember that old expression, “there’s one in every crowd”…Maybe you’re there for a reason - to make others think !

 

[CathPhilosopher]

I know that some of the people here jumped on one of the posters for suggesting not attending this local church at all, but if these things are true then couldn’t it be said that the Priest is a heretic and henceforth his Masses are invalid?

IrishDude, have you ever attended masses there where instead of the hosts, they would use loaves? I ask that because if they do it invalidates the Mass due to lack of proper form.

A priest’s being a heretic does not make his Masses invalid, as long as he intends to do what the Church does in the sacraments.

The proper matter (not form) of the Eucharist is wheat bread. (See the Council of Florence, session 8). Either leavened or unleavened bread may be used validly for the Eucharist, though only unleavened bread may be used licitly in the Roman rite, while leavened bread must be used in the Byzantine rite (and some other eastern rites).

In fact, just in terms of the intrinsic propriety of the matter, loaves (leaving aside the question of leavened vs. unleavened) are better matter than hosts, which are not as obviously bread.

 

[Ljuba]

In fact, just in terms of the intrinsic propriety of the matter, loaves (leaving aside the question of leavened vs. unleavened) are better matter than hosts, which are not as obviously bread.

How do you figure? I ask because I always enjoyed the symbolistic similarity to the manna in the desert. It was just a musing of my own. Could you reform your question, please? I’d like to understand. I’d like to know where I can find some authoritative teaching on the history of this, if you might know.

Since the Eastern church does not put the Body of Christ into someone’s hands, they would have no need for a wafer host as has been since I think the 12th century. I only once witnessed the horror of a leavened loaf of bread consecrated on a bare Altar and the people walking around with what might have been the Body of Christ, while crumbs flew everywhere. From what I could tell, it was probably not valid but still, I about fainted.

Thank you.

 

[reggieM]

Thanks for all the responses! They have helped me make up my mind to try and make it to the Cathedral as much as possible.

Surprisingly, Father is not even the most liberal priest in the diocese. There is another who is even more liberal but he has gotten into trouble with the bishop before. As far as I know my priest has never been in serious hot water with the bishop. And you are exactly right about him though I had always thought that it was the priest’s job to teach the faith not their personal viewpoints.

Refreshingly, those were the first words out of the new priest’s mouth when I asked him for spiritual direction! (Thanks Be To God!)

Pax Vobiscum

Eventually we will triumph (God will triumph) over all of the liberalism that has afflicted the Church for the past decades. The liberal clergy, while numerous and influential these days, will die off – and die off quickly. Our task is to be patient and endure the hardships, as you explain them. A few liberal clerics will convert and change – the rest will simply fade away. They have no disciples or vocations to follow them. So, it’s best to inculate ourselves in traditional Catholic life - all the devotions, spiritual and theological and moral teachings, and the day-to-day practice. This will make us a bit “odd” for a while. But the day is coming very soon, when the liberals themselves will be the odd ones – and that is how they should be considered. They denied the core values and traditions of the Faith, and were only able to get away with it because they had saftety-in-numbers. Their fellow-liberals protected them from the harsh light of reality. But that day is quickly coming to an end. Even the most rank-and-file Catholic can see that their abberations have no foundation or depth. It’s embarrassing. It is the priest’s job to teach the faith. Almost none of our catechisms taught us that our own clergy (and sometimes bishops) can actually be enemies to the faith. That idea was unthinkable some 3 or 4 decades ago. But it’s true - there are wolves within the flock. That was true during the Arian crisis of the 4th century, the Protestant revolt of the 16th century and it is true today, sadly.

 

[CathPhilosopher]

How do you figure? I ask because I always enjoyed the symbolistic similarity to the manna in the desert. It was just a musing of my own. Could you reform your question, please? I’d like to understand. I’d like to know where I can find some authoritative teaching on the history of this, if you might know.

Since the Eastern church does not put the Body of Christ into someone’s hands, they would have no need for a wafer host as has been since I think the 12th century. I only once witnessed the horror of a leavened loaf of bread consecrated on a bare Altar and the people walking around with what might have been the Body of Christ, while crumbs flew everywhere. From what I could tell, it was probably not valid but still, I about fainted.

Thank you.

I don’t know what you mean by “reform your question,” especially since I didn’t ask a question, but made a comment.

I don’t have a concrete recommendation, but if you want a history with details, you should look for a good book on the history of the Eucharist liturgy specifically.

As regards the nature of the matter of the Eucharist, there are a couple of points in the General Instruction of the Roman Missal:

1. The bread for celebrating the Eucharist must be made only from wheat, must be recently baked, and, according to the ancient tradition of the Latin Church, must be unleavened.

1. The meaning of the sign demands that the material for the Eucharistic celebration truly have the appearance of food. It is therefore expedient that the Eucharistic bread, even though unleavened and baked in the traditional shape, be made in such a way that the priest at Mass with a congregation is able in practice to break it into parts for distribution to at least some of the faithful. Small hosts are, however, in no way ruled out when the number of those receiving Holy Communion or other pastoral needs require it. The action of the fraction or breaking of bread, which gave its name to the Eucharist in apostolic times, will bring out more clearly the force and importance of the sign of unity of all in the one bread, and of the sign of charity by the fact that the one bread is distributed among the brothers and sisters.

And in Redemptionis Sacramentum:

[48.] The bread used in the celebration of the Most Holy Eucharistic Sacrifice must be unleavened, purely of wheat, and recently made so that there is no danger of decomposition.123 It follows therefore that bread made from another substance, even if it is grain, or if it is mixed with another substance different from wheat to such an extent that it would not commonly be considered wheat bread, does not constitute valid matter for confecting the Sacrifice and the Eucharistic Sacrament.124 It is a grave abuse to introduce other substances, such as fruit or sugar or honey, into the bread for confecting the Eucharist. Hosts should obviously be made by those who are not only distinguished by their integrity, but also skilled in making them and furnished with suitable tools.125

[49.] By reason of the sign, it is appropriate that at least some parts of the Eucharistic Bread coming from the fraction should be distributed to at least some of the faithful in Communion. “Small hosts are, however, in no way ruled out when the number of those receiving Holy Communion or other pastoral needs require it”,126 and indeed small hosts requiring no further fraction ought customarily to be used for the most part.

Note that there a different reasons that favor different shapes/sizes of bread. From the point of view of symbolic value, it should more clearly have have the appearance of bread and of food. But from the practical point of view (respect for the Eucharist means we should reduce the danger of crumbs) small hosts that can be put whole into the mouth are preferable.

I think it’s likely that in both West and East in the very early Church people received communion on the hand. In both West and East, this practice was discontinued, and only very recently in the West have people been permitted to receive in the hand.

The Eastern Church has a complicated history. At present (granted that it is connected with Latinization), Romanian Byzantine Catholics use leavened bread for the Eucharist, and then distribute communion not with a spoon, but by intinction, dipping the consecrated bread, the Body of Christ, into the Sacred Blood, and then putting in the recipient’s mouth. I must say that when I witness this, it does seem a bit dangerous with respect to the possibility of fragments falling. But it is their present legitimate practice.

 

[muffinmojo]

What I would do in your situation, assuming you couldn’t get to another parish? Join the altar servers. Make sure you perform the tasks with great practice and devotion, bow reverently, teach the younger servers carefully, say the prayers piously. If you can’t, then kneel at the appropriate times, no matter what. Bow during the creed as we are supposed to. Make the sign of the cross at the appropriate times. Genuflect to the Blessed Sacrament and bow to the altar. If someone asks what you are doing, gently explain. Christ hung out with people who needed help. A parish such as this needs a dose of obedience and traditional piety. Eventually, you will win. The Church is heading in this direction, returning the norm which she has lived for 2000 years. It is easy to despair, because the entire course of our parent’s lives and our lives will be spent in a time of disunity and brokenness, and it will be hard for us to realize that this is but an instant in the two-millenia history of Christ’s Church. It is nothing, a blip. It will pass. Have faith.

 

[weezi]

Hi Irish Dude 35
I know EXACTLY WHAT YOU MEAN!!!
You sound like you are doing a great job at searching for the truth. A true pity that your priest is a real hinderance to your vocation and more importantly your Salvation!!! Have you read books by Michael Davies? he Converted to Catholicism also and became a Traditional Catholic. Pope Benedict truly admired him and thought of him as a great man with the Faith. I recommend you read his books. He also writes about Archbishop Lefebvre and SSPX. And that the excommunications were not valid considering the state of the Church was a shipwreck. Please read them. The reason I suggest them is that once you read about SSPX and the real story of it, then you can look into joining their Seminary if it is your vocation as a Priest. May Our Lord and Our Lady bless and protect you.
Weezi