How to convert cafeteria Catholics...

[Elizabeth502]

In other words, are you saying that “Any Catholic who rejects one or more teachings found in the CCC is a heretic”?

Those are strong words. I wouldn’t be framing things quite like that. The reason I say that is that most Catholics struggle with at least one teaching, if not more. I want to emphasize the word “struggle.” That’s more typical, and more realistic, than “reject.”

When we struggle, we have doubts, we’re confused about one or more aspects, origins, or scope of such teachings. Or, we frankly have trouble complying with such a teaching – for example, if it’s not a matter of systematic theology (say, the dynamics of the Trinity) --but a teaching about personal behavior that we find uncomfortable. Such people are not “heretics” but sinners! (And I include myself, obviously among them! )

Also, just some technical issues:

(1) the term heresy is more often applied to those in a position of authority within the Church: the clergy, theologians, or consecrated religious. It is less often applied to lay people. If a lay person boldly asserts (like on a discussion forum or in an informal group setting in a parish) something diametrically opposed to catechetical teaching, that person could be said to be affirming or spreading heretical concepts, but most likely such a person first felt “permission” to do that because he encountered it in some talk or document from a person in authority: he probably was not the originator of the idea, but feels emboldened to affirm it because he knows he’s not alone in the affirmation.

(2) historically, heresy referred much more often to the field of systematic theology than moral theology: e.g., the Doctrine of the Incarnation, versus the Church’s teachings on the scope of sin, and the categories of personal sin.

(3) the more public the assertion, the more it tends to be categorized as “heresy.” Thus, many Catholics may be confused about, or alternately very supportive of, female ordination, but if they casually mention that in various settings, I would not call such a person “a heretic,” and I doubt that Church authorities would either. OTOH, when a woman, or a group of women, illicitly enact an ersatz “ordination,” either with the assistance of ordained Catholic clergy, or with the assistance of authority figures not in communion with Rome, it is more likely that such actions and beliefs will be labeled heretical.

 

[baylee]

Heresy pertains to any person post-baptism, not just the heirarchy.

Can. 750 §1. A person must believe with divine and Catholic faith all those things contained in the word of God, written or handed on, that is, in the one deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church or by its ordinary and universal magisterium which is manifested by the common adherence of the Christian faithful under the leadership of the sacred magisterium; therefore all are bound to avoid any doctrines whatsoever contrary to them.
§2. Each and every thing which is proposed definitively by the magisterium of the Church concerning the doctrine of faith and morals, that is, each and every thing which is required to safeguard reverently and to expound faithfully the same deposit of faith, is also to be firm-ly embraced and retained; therefore, one who rejects those propositions which are to be held definitively is opposed to the doctrine of the Catholic Church.
Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.
Can. 752 Although not an assent of faith, a religious submission of the intellect and will must be given to a doctrine which the Supreme Pontiff or the college of bishops declares concerning faith or morals when they exercise the authentic magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim it by definitive act; therefore, the Christian faithful are to take care to avoid those things which do not agree with it.
Can. 753 Although the bishops who are in communion with the head and members of the college, whether individually or joined together in conferences of bishops or in particular councils, do not possess infallibility in teaching, they are authentic teachers and instructors of the faith for the Christian faithful entrusted to their care; the Christian faithful are bound to adhere with religious submission of mind to the authentic magisterium of their bishops.
Can. 754 All the Christian faithful are obliged to observe the constitutions and decrees which the legitimate authority of the Church issues in order to propose doctrine and to proscribe erroneous opinions, particularly those which the Roman Pontiff or the college of bishops puts forth.
Can. 755 §1. It is above all for the entire college of bishops and the Apostolic See to foster and direct among Catholics the ecumenical movement whose purpose is the restoration among all Christians of the unity which the Church is bound to promote by the will of Christ.
§2. It is likewise for the bishops and, according to the norm of law, the conferences of bishops to promote this same unity and to impart practical norms according to the various needs and opportunities of the circumstances; they are to be attentive to the prescripts issued by the supreme authority of the Church.

 

[patg]

Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith;

It is very interesting that most Catholics had no choice whatsoever in their Baptism and yet the church asserts absolute power in condemning them as heretics if they disagree with anything they never agreed to in the first place.

 

[Elizabeth502]

(continuing)…

There’s also an informal distinction, in gravity, between those who intellectually deny essential Church teachings and those who embrace behavior, or engage in behavior, opposed to Church teaching. (Hence, my example of the unauthorized “ordination.”) This gets into the area called “cooperation.” If I stubbornly but privately “don’t believe” something the Church teaches is a core belief (say, the perpetual virginity of Mary the Mother of God), and I also don’t try to overcome my disbelief (through prayer, study, etc.) it may be a matter for the confessional. (I may wish to disclose that, so as to obtain graces for this intellectual struggle.) But as I was revealing that to my Confessor, I wouldn’t necessarily call myself “a heretic.” I would say, “Father, I’ve been stubbornly resisting this key tenet of the faith – …”

And if it rose to another level – if I encouraged other Catholics also to disbelieve that key tenet – I should confess that as well (as an aspect of cooperation).

We have an affirmative moral obligation to seek to overcome our doubts. More serious, however, is our behavior.

Thus, if we do not seek to overcome our doubts about certain moral teachings of the Church regarding sexuality and sexual behavior, that is one level. If we obstinately refuse to accept that teaching (making no effort to overcome our personal opposition to it) and live in opposition to it (having sexual relations with someone we are not canonically allowed to – such as a divorced person, a partner we are not yet married to, a person of the same sex), we have put ourselves in a condition of grave sin. That would be much more important to our Confessors than our intellectual disbelief about the gravity of the sin. The Confessor would care about the activity we embraced, much more than the moral heresy we embraced intellectually.

And the mistake many Catholics make (regarding the latter), is that they needn’t wander into any Confessional and announce they’ve done anything wrong, because their “conscience” gives them permission to engage in behavior which contradicts essential teaching. Except that what we call our “conscience” can often deceive. The Evil One likes to invade our minds and manipulate us into ratoinalizing our misbehavior as “conscience,” because the Evil One works on the illusion of moral autonomy. (Recall the Temptation Scene of Jesus in the desert.)

 

[fred_conty]

Could someone give me a source that lists all the infallible teachings of the Church?

Fundamentals of the Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott. About 15 dollars on Amazon.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Heresy pertains to any person post-baptism, not just the heirarchy. [snip…]

baylee, I’m aware of all that. I’m just referring to how the term heresy tends to be used on a practical, everyday level – as opposed to its technical definition. Thus, if an errant priest is confessing sins of preaching contrary to the Catechism, he is much more likely to be corrected with regard to the effects of his heresy, literally, than if a private layperson confesses private rejection of those same beliefs. And the priest’s heresy will also be received by the Confessor as far more serious than the layperson’s “heresy.”

(Ahimsa was asking me about terminology. One is a technical answer; the other is a more utilitarian answer.)


Also, we have to look at these pastorally, it seems to me. What good does it do (respective to the title of the thread) to alienate lukewarm and/or misinformed Catholics by marginalizing them and declaring them out of the fold? The Church would rather not call them names, turn them out, and further harden their hearts, but urge them back into the fold.

To me, what’s more important to understand is the dynamic of why this is happening, and to use informal and formal catechetical tools to correct the erroneous belief that any individual Catholic can create his or her own private version of authentic Catholic belief.

 

[fred_conty]

I think cafeteria Catholics are the toughest of all to convert. Their attitudes are a mixture of indifference and stubborness. They ignore Church doctrine, and all the while they are convinced of their salvation because they attend Christmas Mass and pray once a year. They don’t bother to learn about the faith or its history and they don’t actively participate in the body of Christ. Their a tough batch.

Both of my parents are in this category. I love them both immensly and thats why I desire that they embrace the fullness of truth.

Problem is, I don’t know where to begin. They barely have a basic understanding of Christianity itself and I don’t know where to begin. How am I supposed to get them to become active Christians and learn about Church doctrines and participate when they don’t know much about religion?

They attend Christmas and Easter Mass, and a few Sunday masses during the summer. Its not good and I’m worried so much for them! Any advice would be truly appreciated!

Try giving them the miraculous medal to wear.
Here is some important info about the Miraculous Medal, one of Mother Theresa’s
favorites.

“Have a medal struck… All who wear it will receive GREAT graces; they should wear it
around the neck. GRACES will ABOUND for persons who wear it with CONFIDENCE.”
From the mother of Jesus spoken to sister Catherine Laboure 1830.

“Great graces are often attached to what seems trifling.” St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

“The devotions we practice in honor of the glorious Virgin Mary, however trifling they be,
are very pleasing to her divine Son, …” St. Teresa of Jesus

During this apparition, Mary’s hands had 3 rings on each finger. Each ring gave off
rays of colored light. A few rings did not. Mary said that the lights radiating from
the rings are graces that people ASK for. The rings that didn’t radiate she said
were graces not given because they were NOT asked for.

Wear her blessed miraculous medal. Then say, “Mary I am asking now for you to
obtain the great graces for me which you have promised to give to those who ask and
that have trust in you.” Trust her, it works. She is the mother of God.
Would she lie to us?
Her wish is for you to have this. It is her gift.

 legionofmary.org/miracmedal.html

=============================================
“Yes, blessed is she who believed that the promise made her by the Lord would be fulfilled.”
(Lk. 1;45) St. Elizabeth

 

[Yab_Yum]

Magickal thinking.

 

[baylee]

baylee, I’m aware of all that. I’m just referring to how the term heresy tends to be used on a practical, everyday level – as opposed to its technical definition. Thus, if an errant priest is confessing sins of preaching contrary to the Catechism, he is much more likely to be corrected with regard to the effects of his heresy, literally, than if a private layperson confesses private rejection of those same beliefs. And the priest’s heresy will also be received by the Confessor as far more serious than the layperson’s “heresy.”

(Ahimsa was asking me about terminology. One is a technical answer; the other is a more utilitarian answer.)


Also, we have to look at these pastorally, it seems to me. What good does it do (respective to the title of the thread) to alienate lukewarm and/or misinformed Catholics by marginalizing them and declaring them out of the fold? The Church would rather not call them names, turn them out, and further harden their hearts, but urge them back into the fold.

To me, what’s more important to understand is the dynamic of why this is happening, and to use informal and formal catechetical tools to correct the erroneous belief that any individual Catholic can create his or her own private version of authentic Catholic belief.

I think in some cases I’m reminded of Jesus’ words to the apostles re: shaking the dust off from their sandals as they leave a house where the inhabitants will not listen to them. When I see a Cafeteria Catholic/heretic entrenched in their heresy, I think this is when we tell it like it is and shake the dust off from our feet…and move on.

 

[estesbob]

This thread was started 5 years ago!!! Some of the people you are responding you were banned 5 years ago!

 

[Elizabeth502]

This thread was started 5 years ago!!! Some of the people you are responding you were banned 5 years ago!

Thanks! Usually I’m pretty good about noticing dates and stale threads. Not in this case!

 

[Julia_Mae]

We should stop using the expression Cafeteria Catholics. That is simply a dressed up expression for heretics. Call them what they are. That is heretics.

Do they get to call you judgmental, self-righteous fideists?

I wonder what Jesus thinks of all this name-calling and separatism? You guys really think anyone is a perfect follower of Jesus Christ because they know and abide by all things CCC and yet, cannot manage to follow the most straightforward and simplest things Jesus said?

All I hear you saying is: “Thank God I’m not like that tax collector.”

I’m thinking maybe you all are the “cafeteria Catholics,” the ones who decide which things Jesus said you will just ignore.

 

[baylee]

Do they get to call you judgmental, self-righteous fideists?

I wonder what Jesus thinks of all this name-calling and separatism? You guys really think anyone is a perfect follower of Jesus Christ because they know and abide by all things CCC and yet, cannot manage to follow the most straightforward and simplest things Jesus said?

All I hear you saying is: “Thank God I’m not like that tax collector.”

I’m thinking maybe you all are the “cafeteria Catholics,” the ones who decide which things Jesus said you will just ignore.

Actually it’s the Church who is the one who calls those who dissent from Church teaching “heretics”. Wasn’t it Jesus Christ who gave the Church the authority? Are you challenging that teaching?

We’re not talking about whether people abide by all teachings (we all mess up in that arena). We’re talking about people who claim to be Catholic and believe and teach other doctrine that is contrary to Christ’s teachings in the Church…some doing so in a fervent manner in the hopes of changing the Church from within. We’re merely calling a spade a spade.

 

[Michael_Francis]

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