How to explain Mary to a Protestant?

[Goya]

nojesusnopeace;12346818]

I don’t believe that to be a valid analogy. The ark that held the commandments was to hold the tablets for all time. Mary carried Christ for 9 months… big difference.

Wow. That was a rhetorical soft ball. You actually confirmed that you believe God valued the Ark of the Covenant, more than the Ark of the New Covenant, His Blessed Virgin Mother?

Would you seriously look Christ in the eyes, and tell Him that you thought His mother was of inferior worth and/or dignity, than the Ark of the Covenant–because she only carried Him for a mere 9 months inside of her, while the Ark of the [old] Covenant, was designed to hold the TABLETS for a much longer period of time???

What, no credit for the birth itself, the infancy, childhood, puberty, early adulthood…not even for the fact that she was a human being who shared a real human relationship with Him, while the Ark of the Covenant–for all it’s value–was an inanimate object?

I explained this in depth in another thread, but here I’ll provide a chart to support scripture alone. This is just a comparison to another translation, but if you’ll look at the origins of the King James Version, you’ll see why many conclude that The Bible, The KJB in particular, is the inspired and sole word of Go-.
i136.photobucket.com/albums/q193/crinie123/bib1.jpg

Your colorful flow chart is nothing more than an academic exercise in vanity.

It speaks nothing at all to the glaring omission to which I expressly referred.

Let me break it down for you even more basically:

Christ never so much as mentioned a thing that would come into being, called “the Bible”.

Christ not only expressly mentions His Church and prophesies it…the Gospels relay the story of how He went about establishing it, to wit: assembling the Apostles, instructing them, bequeathing his authority to them, and finally sending them His promised and prophesied Holy Spirit (Paraclete/advocate) at the Pentecost.

 

[MacQ]

Every time I hear the words “hail mary” I scratch my head and think idolatry. .

So is it Luke (who wrote it down) or Gabriel the Angel (who he quotes) that you think was engaging in idolatry?

 

[nojesusnopeace]

So is it Luke (who wrote it down) or Gabriel the Angel (who he quotes) that you think was engaging in idolatry?

As I mentioned yesterday, Gabriel wasn’t kneeling to a graven image of Mary for his sins. Luke doesn’t say bow and pray to Mary. You don’t need to say a hundred hail marys to receive salvation for every single sin you commit. Let’s ask Jesus -

Matthew 6:7
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Also, Gabriel was greeting Mary, it didn’t make her any less of a sinner than us. Hailing was used to greet in Ancient Rome, not just to royalty. It was to greet enthusiastically and joyfully.

 

[MacQ]

Mary is an important Saint but from the Protestant point of view she is not more important than others.
.

I reckon we all understand that.

Catholic emphasis on Mary is not understood by Christians
.

Catholic emphasis on Mary IS understood by Catholic Christians, however.

The Protestant and Evangelical focus is on Christ and the Scripture.

Our focus is ALSO on Christ and Scripture.
Everything to do with Mary points to Christ.
We honor His mother.

 

[nojesusnopeace]

Wow. That was a rhetorical soft ball. You actually confirmed that you believe God valued the Ark of the Covenant, more than the Ark of the New Covenant, His Blessed Virgin Mother?

It’s not relevant to us which Go- personally valued more, nor does scripture make that distinction. It’s not the vessel that matters, it’s the contents that matter. Mary can’t save our eternal souls, no matter how many vain and repetitive hail marys are said.That takes away from the need for a savior, and from the glory of Go-.

If you ever committed a serious crime, and have to appear before the judge, hypotetically, are you going to ask the attorney to advocate for you directly, or call his mother’s home and ask her to speak with him? No! You call his office directly.

 

[pablope]

As I mentioned yesterday, Gabriel wasn’t kneeling to a graven image

of Mary for his sins. Luke doesn’t say bow and pray to Mary. You don’t need to say a hundred hail marys to receive salvation for every single sin you commit. Let’s ask Jesus -

You are making a conclusion that is not supported by the bible text either. The Bible is silent on whether the angel knelt or did not. So it is also a possibility the angel did kneel before Mary in greeting her.

Matthew 6:7
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

 

[Duane1966]

But how do you know what the early church believed unless you read their inspired text true to original form? Do they support the commandment that you will not make graven images then bow down and pray to them? As in legal matters, I feel the same philosophy holds true for holy scriptures. It’s always more credible in writing. Otherwise it comes down to “he said she said,” over the course of hundreds of generations.

Except we have their writings and you can read them if you want. They are very clear. So my point remains. I trust them, many of whom walked with the apostles, rather than you (who constantly quotes out of context).

 

[JonNC]

Never understood the deal with Mary. She was an instrument of Go-'s will, a vessel no more no less. Every time I hear the words “hail mary” I scratch my head and think idolatry. I don’t doubt the virgin birth of Christ, nor doubt Mary was a great human being worthy of respect, but she was human, and a sinner like the rest of us. If she was perfect and sinless, we wouldnt have needed Jesus and Mary could have died for our sins, but that is not the case.
Romans 3:23 KJV
For ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

**Secondly, Jesus was conceived by Mary the virgin, but was of The Holy Spirit. **

This isn’t fact, just my theory, but since the conception was of the spirit, wouldn’t that negate marys sinful flesh, and allow the perfect and stainless lamb to be born? Just something to consider. Further, I recall nothing in scripture stating mary was sinless. If there is, im open to reading it if you provide the verse. Full of grace does NOT equal sinless.

What you are saying here doesn’t square with the Lutheran (or Catholic) understanding of the Incarnation. Christ was indeed fully man, and fully God.

Regarding the IC, you are welcome to your opinion, but to accuse those who praise the Blessed Virgin Mary with the very scriptural, “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus. Amen”, as idolatrous is to accuse the very reformers themselves, Luther, and later Chemnitz. It is not idolatrous. It is, essentially, a song of praise for the Saint Luther called the most noble gem in all Christendom, except for Christ Himself.

Jon

 

[Goya]

What you are saying here doesn’t square with the Lutheran (or Catholic) understanding of the Incarnation. Christ was indeed fully man, and fully God.

Regarding the IC, you are welcome to your opinion, but to accuse those who praise the Blessed Virgin Mary with the very scriptural, “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus. Amen”, as idolatrous is to accuse the very reformers themselves, Luther, and later Chemnitz. It is not idolatrous. It is, essentially, a song of praise for the Saint Luther called the most noble gem in all Christendom, except for Christ Himself.

Jon

 

[Firemanhendou]

So sad, I don’t question any Catholic that truly loves Jesus salvation. But, you are confusing so many potential Christians from the truth of Jesus Christ. Your answer for Mary’s immaculate conception is original sin? If Mary had to be immaculate so she wouldn’t pass on the sin gene to Jesus then Mary’s mother too would have had to be immaculate, who in turn her mother would also have been immaculate. Yet Scripture is very clear that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. So sad really!!!

 

[Goya]

nojesusnopeace;

12347282]It’s not relevant to us which Go- personally valued more, nor does scripture make that distinction. It’s not the vessel that matters, it’s the contents that matter.*** Mary can’t save our eternal souls***, no matter how many vain and repetitive hail marys are said.That takes away from the need for a savior, and from the glory of Go-.

First, no one ever suggested that Mary can save souls, and certainly no one has suggested that repeating Hail Mary’s saves souls. We don’t pray Hail Mary’s for ourselves; we pray them out of respect and veneration for Mary–which in turn we hold dearly, out of respect and veneration for Christ Himself, and out of gratitude and Charity, to God, for giving us such a wonderful model.

Secondly, the Rosary which you passively mock, is Christo-centric. We recite the Hail Mary’s, as we meditate on specific mysteries from the Gospels–e.g.–the Nativity, the Crucifixion, the Resurrection…

Thirdly, nothing about Mary takes anything away from God or Christ at all. See the list of Saints I posted earlier; name one of those, whom you can say was any less Christian for their devotion to Mary (nevermind that you can’t come up with any protestants how could hold a candle to any of them, in terms of being truly Christian).

 

[nojesusnopeace]

See the list of Saints I posted earlier; name one of those, whom you can say was any less Christian for their devotion to Mary (nevermind that you can’t come up with any protestants how could hold a candle to any of them, in terms of being truly Christian).

The saints deserve respect, but not to the extent of being put ona pedestal. That glory belongs to Go- alone, as he said plainly that he is a jealous Go-. We will all be judged one day, but its not anyone elses place to say who is Christian and who isn’t, nor how Christian based on our narrow and short sighted definition of “good” works. Thats Go-s call to make not ours, and anything good we do is stained with sin and are as filthy rags to him. Loudly proclaiming your “charity” and other works doesn’t make you more christian, it sounds boastful and arrogant. Nobody but Go- has the right to decide who is christian and who isnt. Instead of comparing people to the saints, how about comparing them to how Christ lived. Being saintly doesn’t get you to heaven, the blood of Christ does.

 

[nojesusnopeace]

And not all saints may truly be saints, especially ones that were made out of political motivation such as Joan of Arc. The trial and her circumstances looked very bad on the church, so it’s said they felt they had to wash their hands of it. She was tried and executed by arguably very corrupt people. Some to this day even believe she was a witch.

 

[Michael_Francis]

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