C
Crusader
Guest
Matthew 16:18-19 does not guarantee that the Church will prevail in the USA…
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C
Crusader
Guest
a pilgrim:
Just another area that needs catechesis…
I still think the “competition” between Eastern and Western parishes could be most positive in a great many cases.
Most Latin Rite Catholics I know view all 22 Eastern Catholic Churches as “Greek Orthodox” – as if they are Orthodox and not Christian.
Just another area that needs catechesis…
I still think the “competition” between Eastern and Western parishes could be most positive in a great many cases.
A
a_pilgrim
Guest
A competition, you say?? C’mon now, Crusader… you know that it wouldn’t be a fair fight. After all, everybody knows that us “Easterners” have got all the “right stuff” - you poor Latins wouldn’t stand a chance!
*(…he says, as he prepares to duck the massive onslaught of “flames” that’s sure to follow) *
a pilgrim
K
krazykatlady
Guest
Melman:
Where I lived there was little access to Catholic literature and no way to talk to Catholics in other parts of the country. Along came the internet and Catholics began to find out that they had been hoodwinked and began to protest to the Vatican. I guess the time finally came when the Pope had to respond to the cries of the people.
In the 1970’s and 1980’s when most of the terrible liturgical abuses were being introduced, we were told that the orders for these changes came from the Vatican itself, meaning the Pope. If one protested you were told not to be “more Catholic than the Pope.”
Where I lived there was little access to Catholic literature and no way to talk to Catholics in other parts of the country. Along came the internet and Catholics began to find out that they had been hoodwinked and began to protest to the Vatican. I guess the time finally came when the Pope had to respond to the cries of the people.
A
Ainchel
Guest
Well, the most obvious and necessary first step on how to correct liturgical abuses is not even listed. The answer is that we must first…
Pray, Pray, Pray.
Then next step is…
Pray some more.
If liturgical abuses really bother you that much, then I ask you to consider if you are spending more time complaining about it or more time praying about it. When there are things that I am having difficulty accepting that our own parish priests are doing, I spend a lot of time praying about the situation, praying for the priests, and spending time in Adoration. Amazingly, every concern I have ever had has been resolved in time without my ever complaining or grumbling about it to others. Prayer does work!
Other than that, my opinion right now is that perhaps we need to take a closer look at the seminaries. I have heard that there are some excellent ones now that are very faithful to the teachings of the church. Perhaps we should consider supporting these seminaries financially and prayerfully.
God Bless all of you, for I can tell that your passion about this question comes from your deep abiding love for God! Just remember that God is Love, and all of our thoughts and actions should be done in the spirit of loving God and loving each other. And that includes loving our Priests, even if they may be in error.
“And they’ll know we are Christians by our Love.”
Pray, Pray, Pray.
Then next step is…
Pray some more.
If liturgical abuses really bother you that much, then I ask you to consider if you are spending more time complaining about it or more time praying about it. When there are things that I am having difficulty accepting that our own parish priests are doing, I spend a lot of time praying about the situation, praying for the priests, and spending time in Adoration. Amazingly, every concern I have ever had has been resolved in time without my ever complaining or grumbling about it to others. Prayer does work!
Other than that, my opinion right now is that perhaps we need to take a closer look at the seminaries. I have heard that there are some excellent ones now that are very faithful to the teachings of the church. Perhaps we should consider supporting these seminaries financially and prayerfully.
God Bless all of you, for I can tell that your passion about this question comes from your deep abiding love for God! Just remember that God is Love, and all of our thoughts and actions should be done in the spirit of loving God and loving each other. And that includes loving our Priests, even if they may be in error.
“And they’ll know we are Christians by our Love.”
T
TradCatholic
Guest
Indeed it should never have been abandoned. The fruits of that tree are rotten.
S
Servant1
Guest
Your point is excellent, well made, and, I hope, well taken!
That’s another way of saying, I think, what I said - we fix ourselves first and foremost. I don’t think that’s in real contradiction to what Crisader posted in response to me - i.e. to do what the Church teaches. he Church doesn’t teach that a “fixed” liturgy must be in Latin, or be Tridentine, or any other of a number of things that come at least close to putting preferences over and above Church teaching, or putting form over substance. Fixing how WE approach the liturgy will do much - we may see thet the liturgy itself needs less and less fixing.
C
Crusader
Guest
a pilgrim:
Add a pastor who is excellent at communications/PR and you would see a great many disgruntled Latin Riters leaving their current parishes…
I would love to see an Eastern Catholic parish here within geographic dominion of the Diocese of Monterey that had a snazzy church building that held about 1,000.A competition, you say?? C’mon now, Crusader… you know that it wouldn’t be a fair fight. After all, everybody knows that us “Easterners” have got all the “right stuff” - you poor Latins wouldn’t stand a chance!
(…he says, as he prepares to duck the massive onslaught of "flames" that’s sure to follow)
a pilgrim
Add a pastor who is excellent at communications/PR and you would see a great many disgruntled Latin Riters leaving their current parishes…
E
ecce_veritas
Guest
Two words…Universal Indult…
A
a_pilgrim
Guest
Crusader,
There is a Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic parish in your town…
St. Anne
222 Foothill Boulevard
San Luis Obispo, CA, 93405-1540
Administrator: Rev. Edmund Idranyi
Financial Administrator: Mr. Paul Sawko
Phone: 805-543-8883
Fax: 805-543-8883 *51
…my “disclaimer” here is that I am not at all familiar with the parish, nor do I know how large a parish it is, how “true” to Eastern Tradition the church building is, etc., etc… all the things you expressed a concern about (I don’t get out west that much!).
The parish is under the jurisdiction of the Byzantine Catholic Eparchy of Van Nuys (the Eastern Catholic equivalent of a “diocese”)…
byzcath.org/van/vannuys.htm
…perhaps a phone call and a visit may be in order!
a pilgrim
S
system
Guest
As I have said in other threads, I am new to the whole topic of the tridentine mass and indults and “traditionalism”. Until very recently I didn’t know that the mass wasn’t always the way it is now.
But, the mass has been in its current form for about 2 generations. It is perfectly valid, never “rotten”, and if the abuses can be combed out of it then everything will be fine.
You folks that sit around chanting your mantras about the glory of the old mass, and how restoring it will solve all the world’s problems from fluoridated water to athlete’s foot… do you really think anyone is seriously listening to your rants? I mean, can’t you see how completely unrealistic this is?
J
JCB
Guest
Melman:
Here are some facts that are real;
Vocations from our traditional Latin Mass community in the past five -years = 3
Vocations from the three NO parishes that surround me in the past five -years = 0
Liturgical abuses occurring during the TLM in the last ten years in our community = 0
Liturgical abuses occurring during the NO in the last ten years in our parish = several hundred
I hope you can get a chance to attended the TLM . I think you will begin to see the reality.
“…those who have ears let them hear…”
“… by their fruits you will know them …”
Melman
Here are some facts that are real;
Vocations from our traditional Latin Mass community in the past five -years = 3
Vocations from the three NO parishes that surround me in the past five -years = 0
Liturgical abuses occurring during the TLM in the last ten years in our community = 0
Liturgical abuses occurring during the NO in the last ten years in our parish = several hundred
I hope you can get a chance to attended the TLM . I think you will begin to see the reality.
“…those who have ears let them hear…”
“… by their fruits you will know them …”
H
Ham1
Guest
So, let’s say that we did suddenly just revert to the old mass…
Would the pastor’s who abuse the NO just start saying the old mass perfectly without abuse? Would everyone in the parish get holier? Would they start dressing better and joining seminaries? Would they stop using contraception? Would everyone start going to confession? Would everyone start believing in the real presence?
Would the pastor’s who abuse the NO just start saying the old mass perfectly without abuse? Would everyone in the parish get holier? Would they start dressing better and joining seminaries? Would they stop using contraception? Would everyone start going to confession? Would everyone start believing in the real presence?
B
Brennan_Doherty
Guest
Melman:
Ham1:
As you know, in general, Catholics (even the Mass going ones), don’t read papal encyclicals or the documents of Vatican II. Generally they don’t take classes on Catholicism or read books about it. Primarily they get their education about Catholicism from assisting at Mass. Thus the liturgy is extremely important as much of the Catholic faith is transmitted through small “t” tradition such as the liturgy.
I remember visting the Fraternal Society of Saint Peter (which has permission to use exclusively the 1962 missal) a while back. They had something like 81 applicants to the priesthood for 17 slots.
No one I know of who advocates for a greater use of the traditional Latin Mass believes all problems in the world would be solved by it. Yet, as far as Ham1’s questions above go, I would say yes to all of them, though, again, not in an absolute sense. I believe the situation would defiinitely improve, not become “perfect.”
First, because at any traditional Latin Mass I have been to the people do dress better. Further, the situation, as statistical evidence shows, was definitely better in all the above areas (where statistical evidence applies), when the traditional Latin Mass was the main rite of the Church. As an anecdote, I would like to say I used to do troubleshooting for printers. One of the first things we would ask a customer was, “When was the last time it was working?” And then the follow up question, “What did you change around the time that problems started surfacing?”
The primary change in Catholicism which has affected most Catholics, *in the Church itself, *has been the changes to the liturgy.
God bless.
As Cardinal Ratzinger has reiterated not too long ago, “As the Liturgy goes, so goes the Church.”
As you know, in general, Catholics (even the Mass going ones), don’t read papal encyclicals or the documents of Vatican II. Generally they don’t take classes on Catholicism or read books about it. Primarily they get their education about Catholicism from assisting at Mass. Thus the liturgy is extremely important as much of the Catholic faith is transmitted through small “t” tradition such as the liturgy.
I remember visting the Fraternal Society of Saint Peter (which has permission to use exclusively the 1962 missal) a while back. They had something like 81 applicants to the priesthood for 17 slots.
No one I know of who advocates for a greater use of the traditional Latin Mass believes all problems in the world would be solved by it. Yet, as far as Ham1’s questions above go, I would say yes to all of them, though, again, not in an absolute sense. I believe the situation would defiinitely improve, not become “perfect.”
First, because at any traditional Latin Mass I have been to the people do dress better. Further, the situation, as statistical evidence shows, was definitely better in all the above areas (where statistical evidence applies), when the traditional Latin Mass was the main rite of the Church. As an anecdote, I would like to say I used to do troubleshooting for printers. One of the first things we would ask a customer was, “When was the last time it was working?” And then the follow up question, “What did you change around the time that problems started surfacing?”
The primary change in Catholicism which has affected most Catholics, *in the Church itself, *has been the changes to the liturgy.
God bless.
H
Ham1
Guest
I think this is somewhat simplistic. The world was a different place when the old mass was said. The old mass did not CAUSE the world to be a different (and probably better) place. Neither did the new mass cause society to become corrupted. Society became increasingly materialistic and atheistic throughout the latter half of the 20th century.
I would also say it absolutely WAS NOT the changes to the liturgy. It was abuse of those changes. What caused the abuse? Priests. Priests many of whom who were trained and discerned their vocations during the old mass era. It was changes in the seminaries well before Vatican II that created a generation of priests who were WILLING to abuse the new liturgy. It would seem these priests must have had serious flaws in their formation that would allow them to justify disobeying Rome. Who taught and ran these seminaries? Priests who were ordained long before Vatican II. This disease of disloyalty to the Church was festering years and years before any changes to the liturgy.
If the problem and cause was the new liturgy itself, then presumably all the pre-vatican II formed and ordained priests who were the first to say the new mass would not have abused the liturgy. They would have been properly formed and said the new mass very devoutly. Unless, of course you mean to contend that even the most well-formed orthodox priest is caused by the new mass to abuse it.
I don’t know about you, but I have found that many of the priests most prone to abuse the liturgy are in their 60’s. Meaning many of them attended the minor seminary in the 50’s. The big question is what happened in the seminaries during the 30’s, 40’s, 50’s, and 60’s?
I would also say it absolutely WAS NOT the changes to the liturgy. It was abuse of those changes. What caused the abuse? Priests. Priests many of whom who were trained and discerned their vocations during the old mass era. It was changes in the seminaries well before Vatican II that created a generation of priests who were WILLING to abuse the new liturgy. It would seem these priests must have had serious flaws in their formation that would allow them to justify disobeying Rome. Who taught and ran these seminaries? Priests who were ordained long before Vatican II. This disease of disloyalty to the Church was festering years and years before any changes to the liturgy.
If the problem and cause was the new liturgy itself, then presumably all the pre-vatican II formed and ordained priests who were the first to say the new mass would not have abused the liturgy. They would have been properly formed and said the new mass very devoutly. Unless, of course you mean to contend that even the most well-formed orthodox priest is caused by the new mass to abuse it.
I don’t know about you, but I have found that many of the priests most prone to abuse the liturgy are in their 60’s. Meaning many of them attended the minor seminary in the 50’s. The big question is what happened in the seminaries during the 30’s, 40’s, 50’s, and 60’s?
S
system
Guest
Brennan Doherty:
I assume you are talking about Indult Masses. Regardless of the beliefs of the people who attend them, they are a tiny fraction of the population. If the mix between Latin Mass and NO masses suddenly became 50-50, I doubt you’d see any difference in dress and general behavior at all.
The Church does not operate in a vacuum, in a petri dish where outside influences of societal changes can be ignored. Many other things “changed around the time that problems started surfacing”.
D
Dolly
Guest
Good comments and question Ham1.
Also Pilgrim and Crusader, do you have any experience of Latin Catholics attending eastern Catholic parishes, not because they want to be an eastern Catholic, but primarily because they are disaffected Latin’s? That has been my, grantedly small, experience—if there were a good (as they see it) Novus Ordo mass or a Tridentine mass locally, they would probably bolt in a blink to that parish. Some have come trying to latinize, fortunately not successfully, but most don’t seem to be eastern in practice or knowledge nor desire to be. They are Latin in heart and this is a stop gap. They seem to consider the latin rite ‘Catholic’ and not the Byzantine (it’s not ‘catholic’ enough, meaning latin enough). Comment made to me once, “they are more byzantine than catholic” but not with anything to back it up except they didn’t seem to like eastern theology.
If, as Catholics, we really could learn to breathe with both lungs and see them both as fully catholic, and if those on the extreme traditional wing could also except both as fully catholic, we would then be able to live out our faith and allow others to see it and want to be a part of it.
BTW, St. Anne’s in San Luis Obispo is listed as having 36 families. All the western eparchy Ruthenian parishes are small only with 3 listed as over 100 families, none over 150 families.
Also Pilgrim and Crusader, do you have any experience of Latin Catholics attending eastern Catholic parishes, not because they want to be an eastern Catholic, but primarily because they are disaffected Latin’s? That has been my, grantedly small, experience—if there were a good (as they see it) Novus Ordo mass or a Tridentine mass locally, they would probably bolt in a blink to that parish. Some have come trying to latinize, fortunately not successfully, but most don’t seem to be eastern in practice or knowledge nor desire to be. They are Latin in heart and this is a stop gap. They seem to consider the latin rite ‘Catholic’ and not the Byzantine (it’s not ‘catholic’ enough, meaning latin enough). Comment made to me once, “they are more byzantine than catholic” but not with anything to back it up except they didn’t seem to like eastern theology.
If, as Catholics, we really could learn to breathe with both lungs and see them both as fully catholic, and if those on the extreme traditional wing could also except both as fully catholic, we would then be able to live out our faith and allow others to see it and want to be a part of it.
BTW, St. Anne’s in San Luis Obispo is listed as having 36 families. All the western eparchy Ruthenian parishes are small only with 3 listed as over 100 families, none over 150 families.
C
Crusader
Guest
a pilgrim:
Unfortunately, many Catholics wrongfully label that parish as being “Greek Orthodox.” Abysmal catechesis takes a toll in many areas, including understanding what actually comprises the Church.
That parish has an outstanding reputation for orthodox Catholicism. I have heard that a great many weary Roman Catholics attend there. It’s considered a haven of sorts for those who can no longer tolerate liturgical abuses.
Unfortunately, many Catholics wrongfully label that parish as being “Greek Orthodox.” Abysmal catechesis takes a toll in many areas, including understanding what actually comprises the Church.
C
Crusader
Guest
Melman:
The Church can never be driven by popular culture. It must be driven by God. Allowing today’s septic secular culture to permeate the Church has taken a horrible toll.
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