How to get an ex-Mormon riled up

[grandfather]

I wondered about the “Miracle of Forgiveness” book, and I agree that it did cause problems for many people. But once I did a search of Ensign articles during Kimball’s tenure, and found some by General Authorities specifically stating that we don’t have to become perfect in this life. That’s just the ideal we ought to be shooting for, and God will help us do it, even if it takes eons. C.S. Lewis said the same thing when he wrote that Jesus’ mandate in Matt. 5:48 (“Be ye therefore perfect, as your Father in Heaven is perfect,”) is not just “idealistic gas.”

Once again, the problems were caused because some people listened to messages from one side of the coin, but not the other.

Indeed Jesus told us to be perfect, as perfect as God is perfect. This is not a suggestion, but a command. If it is impossible to be perfect, then Jesus is unjust. It would be like a parent giving a command to a five year old child to know everything in a calculus book overnight. No just parent would demand what is impossible. Neither would a just God. Perfection must be possible and it also must be possible in this life, or Jesus would not have commanded it.

Another valid translation which means the same thing is Be holy, even as … Be as holy as God.

I know that I can not obey this command. I do not have the power or ability. I am full of weakness. In fact I am helpless. But if God helps me, or you, or us, then it is possible. If I rely on God He will enable me to obey Him.

This help is called grace. It is free, but we have to be open to it.
Discouragement in failure is common and normal, but we have to persevere in the effort toward holiness. We call out to God for mercy, healing and love. We have thousands of examples of the saints to edify us in our efforts. Holiness is possible for all. When we pray thy kingdom come, that is what we are asking for, holiness or perfection for all.

For those who think I am a black and white thinker, I probably am. There is a lot of black and white, objective truth, right and wrong. Jesus said you are for me or against me. It is a black or white deal. There is no in between. You are not sort of for Him. It is all or nothing.

It is possible to have faith that is useless, faith that is dead. Those who live in mortal or deadly sin, but go to church have faith, but it is dead. The witness of living faith is works of love, spiritual fruits.

With all the theological wrangling that goes on here it is good to ask ourselves what is it that ultimately we want for Mormons, or Catholics. I am a black and white Catholic, unequivocal. I think Mormonism is a fable, total nonsense. When they talk about priesthood they don’t even know what a priest is, what the function of priest is. Scripture says God will raise up for Himself a nation of priests, a royal priesthood and a priestly people (incude the feminine). That is off topic.

What I wat for all Mormons is holiness and salvation. I want God to save them, forgive them, fill them with every blessing and virtue and for them to be with Him forever in heaven. I will their good. We could not disagree more on things of religion. My hope for them is eternal beatitude with Christ and all the saints in heaven.
I suspect that Mormons feel the same way about me in their own way.

In any dialogue when rancor and acrimony take over people get hardened, dug in, obstinate. It is also important to keep in mind the objective of dialogue. It is to seek or come to agreement. God programs the desire for unity in our souls. And, He commands us to be one.

There is no doubt someone is right and someone is wrong. It is very black and white, no in between. Jesus said He would lead His Church into all truth, not some.

At the same time I say Mormonism is absurd, I also know with certainty that God loves Mormons and so do I. Knowing that those who disagree with us love us and their intention is for our good makes it difficult to become acrimonious.

Everyone on this forum should ask themselves what it is they will for those who oppose them.

 

[BDawg]

I use the word “celibate” in the modern sense. Not being sexually active, having neither boyfriend, girlfriend, husband, or wife. We know that LDS place single adults on a lower level within the community: that marriage is pressured for everyone.

Any time there is an ideal of any sort in a community, there is a tendency by some members to look up to those who come closer to the ideal, and look down on those who don’t. So if some LDS “place single adults on a lower level,” it is just because they are imperfect humans. Recognizing this universal human tendency, LDS leaders CONSTANTLY remind their members to try to fight it, and make sure that single adults feel welcome and appreciated.

Be honest. Haven’t there been similar tendencies among Catholics? If not, where are all those people coming from who say they suffer from “Catholic guilt”?

 

[grandfather]

Any time there is an ideal of any sort in a community, there is a tendency by some members to look up to those who come closer to the ideal, and look down on those who don’t. So if some LDS “place single adults on a lower level,” it is just because they are imperfect humans. Recognizing this universal human tendency, LDS leaders CONSTANTLY remind their members to try to fight it, and make sure that single adults feel welcome and appreciated.

Be honest. Haven’t there been similar tendencies among Catholics? If not, where are all those people coming from who say they suffer from “Catholic guilt”?

Of course there are. We revere or look up to our saints. God glorifies them and we revere them. Secular people revere quaterbacks or movie stars or drug addict musicians. Having heroes is part of human nature. Even our heroes are awed by the achievements of others.

We don’t look up to drug addict prostitutes or murderers, those who have fallen into vice and do not know virtue, but we want them to come to know the mercy and love our heroes have found. It is mercy for all and our heroes live to serve the sickest souls desiring their healing. This is in immitation of Jesus. He came for sinners, the prostitutes and those who do evil. That is me, a fallen man who needs mercy or I am doomed.

I have never been arrested, divorced, go to work every day and church on Sunday. Outwardly I am a good citizen, but I am fallen and in need. I am not different than any other person in need of mercy. When I look at other good people who manage to hold their lives together I know they are just like me. We are all fallen and our saints were like us also. But with God’s grace they overcame sin. So can we if God helps us. Grace transforms us from within. You know you have it when you love everyone, including and especially your enemies.

When we look with disdain on those who are leprous with sin we fail God who calls us to bind up the wounded.

 

[BDawg]

Hi Rebecca,

I don’t “need” you to be the person I described. I was just having fun pop-psychologizing someone who said something ridiculously snotty about my faith. I’d be willing to bet that I hit a few nails on the head, though.

I don’t suffer from black and white thinking bdawg. If anything, if I could think more black and white I probably wouldn’t have struggled so much with life, the universe and everything.

But that’s why it IS such a struggle. Black-and-white thinkers faced with ambiguity are extremely uncomfortable people.

This is where mormonism has taught you in error. God withholds nothing.

Wow. You mean there’s no hell? No Purgatory? People don’t suffer because of the sins they commit? So when Jesus gave the Sermon on the Mount, and said, “Blessed are the” peacemakers, merciful, pure in heart, etc., he was really implying that mean, contentious, lustful jerks will receive those same blessings?

Like I said… Pollyanna Catholicism.

This is not what I said. And I think it is very indicative of how mormonism has screwed up your thinking. A desire for God to love, for God to care, for God to want me is not an indication that I suffer from self-hate.

I didn’t ever think about God’s anger, all I wanted to know is that God wanted me.

And there are no messages like that in Mormonism? Nobody ever said that God loves sinners? Like I said, you heard only what you wanted to. Just look at how x described his Mormon upbringing. He was so drunk on God’s love that he thought he could do about anything, and it wouldn’t matter. He only heard what he wanted to, but it was exactly the opposite of what you heard!

Yes, I understand your need to discount what I have to say. But you are not listening. All you want to do is tell me what is wrong with me. Something that is the answer to everything in Mormonism.

There is nothing wrong with me.

Of course there’s something wrong with you. There’s something wrong with everyone.

I’m sorry I came down so hard on you, though. I felt you were really asking for it with your “f-bomb” comment, but I probably went a little overboard. But hopefully it drew your attention to the fact that, even if you tell yourself that you are perfectly calm and rational about your former religion, you still have some major hang-ups. I mean, Mormonism sports a large number of nice, intelligent people. I don’t think that that any fair-minded, well-informed person who knows these people and has tried to understand how they think, would ever say that Mormonism is a “mind (f-bomb).” Only a snotty atheist or someone with severe bitterness/bigotry issues would say something like that, especially in a public forum.

Take a page from x. He thinks Mormonism is false, and says so, but in a way that doesn’t make him sound like a bitter, unreasoning apostate.

 

[BDawg]

Of course there are. We revere or look up to our saints. God glorifies them and we revere them. Secular people revere quaterbacks or movie stars or drug addict musicians. Having heroes is part of human nature. Even our heroes are awed by the achievements of others.

We don’t look up to drug addict prostitutes or murderers, those who have fallen into vice and do not know virtue, but we want them to come to know the mercy and love our heroes have found. It is mercy for all and our heroes live to serve the sickest souls desiring their healing. This is in immitation of Jesus. He came for sinners, the prostitutes and those who do evil. That is me, a fallen man who needs mercy or I am doomed.

I have never been arrested, divorced, go to work every day and church on Sunday. Outwardly I am a good citizen, but I am fallen and in need. I am not different than any other person in need of mercy. When I look at other good people who manage to hold their lives together I know they are just like me. We are all fallen and our saints were like us also. But with God’s grace they overcame sin. So can we if God helps us. Grace transforms us from within. You know you have it when you love everyone, including and especially your enemies.

When we look with disdain on those who are leprous with sin we fail God who calls us to bind up the wounded.

Thank you, that’s exactly how I feel. Except when I get in a self-righteous snit. And that’s my point. People–almost all of them, regardless of religious or political persuasion–tend to get self-righteous at times. But to impute self-righteousness to Catholicism just because every Catholic isn’t a perfect mirror of God’s love is just ridiculous. That’s what I feel Jerusha was doing with the Mormons.

 

[Jerusha]

That’s what I feel Jerusha was doing with the Mormons.

If I hadn’t had experience with self-righteous Brighamite snits in a certain small city, I wouldn’t be so critical. Just because you think you are generally not that way (and I don’t know you), you are being critical of my attitude, thinking I am directly attacking you. Perhaps you need to take another look around you.

I’ll ask you this: Do you think non-Mormons are capable of leading ethical, righteous lives?

 

[BDawg]

Again, you don’t know me. I think this is indicative of your need to analyze people who left Mormonism. It can never be for valid reasons. For the reason that it is, that Mormonism is a lie, it is false, it has corrupted Christianity. No, it isn’t Mormonism that has the problems, it is the people who leave. And so you have this need to “analyze” my thoughts, my actions, my words, and as you do all things, you twist them and corrupt them to a corrupt purpose.

I don’t think you have me quite pegged, here. Since I accept Mormonism as God’s true religion, I don’t view any reason for leaving it “valid,” but I can certainly see some reasons as “understandable.” For instance, Tundramom (I think her name is Steph) recently talked about her awful experience as a teenager being counseled by her bishop and parents to get an abortion, which had long-term negative effects. I think in that case that the bishop was not properly following the guidelines set out in the church Handbook of Instructions about handling such cases. (At least, it didn’t sound like it from Steph’s description.) When I read her story, I was very sad, and thought that it was understandable that she would end up leaving.

I even find it understandable when some people leave the Church over certain intellectual issues. Most of them don’t amount to much, but there are a few that I don’t know exactly what to do with, so I can understand if those things weigh more heavily on someone else’s mind that they do on mine.

In your case, however, you keep claiming that Mormonism taught you that God didn’t love you. I don’t find that reason understandable, since Mormonism clearly would not teach anyone that lesson. But maybe I would find your reasons understandable if I knew more background. For instance, I was sexually abused as a child by my brother, who turned out to be gay. I never told anyone for years, and that secret really messed up my mind in a lot of ways, including by making me feel unlovable. Maybe it would have been understandable if I had ended up leaving the LDS Church because of not feeling God loved me. But the fact is that I would have been blaming the Church for what was really a personal psychological issue.

(If you want to pop-psychologize me, maybe you could attribute my tendency to be a mean jerk to my awful childhood experiences. I could go on about that…)

Actually I never read anything that you would call anti-Mormon until I was firmly in my atheism. And then, what I read only supported what I had figured out on my own.

Exactly what I said.

And so here we are, again, where you are creating bdawg’s make believe world where everything is as he sees it. Practicing for godhood?

Well, you can’t exactly get deified overnight, can you?!

Actually, I do consider that I escaped. Though not for the reasons you are portraying. And no, I don’t think I am a hero. Lucky, and also something that you don’t believe because it isn’t possible in your Mormon world where God withhold’s things…even in my atheism, God was there, not withholding anything.

So you haven’t gained any blessings by coming back to God? And you wouldn’t gain any more by moving even closer to Him?

Yes, and calling me mentally deficient because I have a desire for God’s love is all high society and, oh, what…atheist? You are almost there, just stop believing in the lies you work so hard to hold together, and there you will be…godless. This is what Mormonism teaches people.

I never said you were mentally deficient. I said you were a black-and-white thinker. What that means is that you haven’t developed certain critical thinking skills that take quite a bit of practice.

And those atheistic criticisms of religious people? It’s not as if there’s no truth to them, even if they are overblown. There really are religious people who believe in God for completely ridiculous reasons. I’ve had people tell me that they believe in God because their parents did, and that’s good enough for them. There really are religious people who can only see what they want to see, and ignore ambiguities and contrary evidence. There are atheists who do the same thing, however.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Hi Rebecca,

I don’t “need” you to be the person I described. I was just having fun pop-psychologizing someone who said something ridiculously snotty about my faith. I’d be willing to bet that I hit a few nails on the head, though.
.

Can’t just stop eh? Well, you can think what you like about me. But I’ll decline your “fixing” me, as I’ve had enough Mormon “fixing” to last a lifetime.

You know nothing about me and seek to overlay some idea of “Rebecca” that isn’t truth. About the same as you do religion. Truth doesn’t matter, only your overlay of make believe and all sorts of made up material to make what is false, true.

You can f’ off now, in case you didn’t get that.

 

[BDawg]

I’ll ask you this: Do you think non-Mormons are capable of leading ethical, righteous lives?

Yes.

 

[grandfather]

Thank you, that’s exactly how I feel. Except when I get in a self-righteous snit. And that’s my point. People–almost all of them, regardless of religious or political persuasion–tend to get self-righteous at times. But to impute self-righteousness to Catholicism just because every Catholic isn’t a perfect mirror of God’s love is just ridiculous. That’s what I feel Jerusha was doing with the Mormons.

I know a number of Mormons. We are genuine friends. I also know some things about human nature, the fallen nature we all share. I know what grace is and I know what sin is. I know what the effects of sin are through personal experience and I know what grace does to the soul through the same.

All of us struggle with our sinful or fallen or broken natures. Whether our faith is dead or alive we go through this struggle. We know that some people can appear on the outside to be doing ok, but inside be a mess. People can mask their inner souls and only they and God see them.

In the spiritual life the objective is to grow closer to God, to become more and more conformed to His image, not on the outside, but the inside.

Luther made a mistake. You are probbly aware of it. he gives an analogy that we are like lumps of manure covered in snow. Our souls are covered with Christ’s blood so God only sees that and we kind of sneak into heaven disguised. Grace does not work this way. Grace transforms the soul. It is not putting lipstick and makeup on, but works real change.

If a person has known this in his life he agrees with it. I was in the gutter and God lifted me out. If a person has not known this tranformation by the power of God he does not understand these words. Those who do know it though, continue to struggle. They can fall back into their vomit. They remain vigilant begging God for protection, continued grace, because they know they are still able to throw it all away. They return to the scene of the crime.

We are all the same. There are two kinds of people in the world. It is not Mormons and Catholics. There are penitant sinners and impenitant sinners. We all know what class we fall into. Right now you know the state of your soul. Forget all your theology. The nitty gritty is are you in the state of sin or the state of grace. Which is it? What is going on inside? It is impossible to have forgiveness of sin without repentance. Jesus says this. He tells the pharisees that He came for sinners, but they say they have none, so then He can not help them. They were great pretenders. They pretended righteousness. He tells them they will die in their sins. He is saying they will go to hell.

Will you die in your sins? He says if you do not do what He tells you he is no good to you. Do we do what He commands? Do we love Him? Nothing else matters.

If we know that what we need to find mercy is grace and that God wills us to have it, then He also must give us a means of grace. If we are to drink of it, He must put it in a cup for us and hand it to us. We need a vessel. A helpless baby needs food. He can not find it. His mother provides the food. She is the means by which he lives. So we depend on God for our lives and the spiritual sustenance He gives. Some people do not have it. Inside they are corrupt, but outside they can seem whole. Judgment will reveal them.

 

[BDawg]

I know a number of Mormons. We are genuine friends. I also know some things about human nature, the fallen nature we all share. I know what grace is and I know what sin is. I know what the effects of sin are through personal experience and I know what grace does to the soul through the same.

All of us struggle with our sinful or fallen or broken natures. Whether our faith is dead or alive we go through this struggle. We know that some people can appear on the outside to be doing ok, but inside be a mess. People can mask their inner souls and only they and God see them.

In the spiritual life the objective is to grow closer to God, to become more and more conformed to His image, not on the outside, but the inside.

Luther made a mistake. You are probbly aware of it. he gives an analogy that we are like lumps of manure covered in snow. Our souls are covered with Christ’s blood so God only sees that and we kind of sneak into heaven disguised. Grace does not work this way. Grace transforms the soul. It is not putting lipstick and makeup on, but works real change.

If a person has known this in his life he agrees with it. I was in the gutter and God lifted me out. If a person has not known this tranformation by the power of God he does not understand these words. Those who do know it though, continue to struggle. They can fall back into their vomit. They remain vigilant begging God for protection, continued grace, because they know they are still able to throw it all away. They return to the scene of the crime.

We are all the same. There are two kinds of people in the world. It is not Mormons and Catholics. There are penitant sinners and impenitant sinners. We all know what class we fall into. Right now you know the state of your soul. Forget all your theology. The nitty gritty is are you in the state of sin or the state of grace. Which is it? What is going on inside? It is impossible to have forgiveness of sin without repentance. Jesus says this. He tells the pharisees that He came for sinners, but they say they have none, so then He can not help them. They were great pretenders. They pretended righteousness. He tells them they will die in their sins. He is saying they will go to hell.

Will you die in your sins? He says if you do not do what He tells you he is no good to you. Do we do what He commands? Do we love Him? Nothing else matters.

If we know that what we need to find mercy is grace and that God wills us to have it, then He also must give us a means of grace. If we are to drink of it, He must put it in a cup for us and hand it to us. We need a vessel. A helpless baby needs food. He can not find it. His mother provides the food. She is the means by which he lives. So we depend on God for our lives and the spiritual sustenance He gives. Some people do not have it. Inside they are corrupt, but outside they can seem whole. Judgment will reveal them.

Thanks! I agree with everything you said. And you said it very eloquently, I might add.

 

[Jerusha]

Yes.

Then I don’t really have that much to argue with you about. Clean up your own church before you go attacking others’.

If we know that what we need to find mercy is grace and that God wills us to have it, then He also must give us a means of grace. If we are to drink of it, He must put it in a cup for us and hand it to us. We need a vessel. A helpless baby needs food. He can not find it. His mother provides the food. The Catholic Church is the means by which he lives. So we depend on God for our lives and the spiritual sustenance He gives through the Church. Some people do not have it. Those Mormons are corrupt, but outside they …seem whole. Judgment will reveal them.

I survived only because of my Catholic Church

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca,
This makes no sense. You are usually very clear. Do you mean the teaching of the Church allow you to understand divine nature? Our response to grace is how we live, and gratitude, and obedience which is love. When we experience love we give it back. Is this what you mean?

Divine nature, yes, especially that God is not a man with superpowers.

And yes, that is what I mean.

Confession is a miraculous experience no doubt. Do you think if your sins are forgiven that makes you worthy to be loved, lovable?

Not what I meant…you were taking cues from someone else who thinks they know me.

 

[grandfather]

Divine nature, yes, especially that God is not a man with superpowers.

And yes, that is what I mean.

Not what I meant…you were taking cues from someone else who thinks they know me.

No I was not. You said you would never be worthy of God’s love, if I recall.

You don’t make the call Becka. God does. It is good that you see yourself as unworthy. All the saints were the same.

Please look up merit. Aquinas explains congruent and condign merit.

 

[RebeccaJ]

No I was not. You said you would never be worthy of God’s love, if I recall.

You don’t make the call Becka. God does. It is good that you see yourself as unworthy. All the saints were the same.

Please look up merit. Aquinas explains congruent and condign merit.

yes, but someone took that to mean I have some sort of self-loathing going on. I don’t. Not even as a Mormon. Though, saying I knew that God rejected me and so I rejected Him, and in that context that I knew I would never be worthy…that is different.

It is a view that Mormonism gave me, which is still not self-loathing. Opposite, really, Mormons kept trying to tell me that God doesn’t love me, rejects me, left me, etc. They say the same today. It is not something I can accept, or could accept, ever, and it felt like I was fighting for my survival, literally, to get to a place where this god didn’t exist.

I understand my true nature, that of one who is created by God. And that without His Sacrifice that I am nothing. This, is the most profound love of all and something I will never be worthy of.

Mormons teach that you should work to be worthy of this love, as though such a thing is possible.

They confuse “saved by grace” with the distorted view of non-Catholics, which is not what I believe, at all.

 

[grandfather]

Divine nature, yes, especially that God is not a man with superpowers.

And yes, that is what I mean.

.

Rebecca,

St. Peter writes that we will participate in the divine nature. God became man, taking on our nature, but He shares with us His nature. This is our destiny. We are becoming something we can not see, John says. This does not mean we ever become who God is, but that we share in the life of the Blessed Trinity. He shares His kingdom with us. We are heirs.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca,

St. Peter writes that we will participate in the divine nature. God became man, taking on our nature, but He shares with us His nature. This is our destiny. We are becoming something we can not see, John says. This does not mean we ever become who God is, but that we share in the life of the Blessed Trinity. He shares His kingdom with us. We are heirs.

yes, i know

 

[BDawg]

Then I don’t really have that much to argue with you about. Clean up your own church before you go attacking others’.

Hi Jerusha,

I’m not following you. When did I attack the Catholic church? I wasn’t the one using terms like “the Morg,” and so on.

 

[Jerusha]

Sorry, I wasn’t following your posting history. And I meant it in a generic way.

I have spent my life trying to be “good” enough to be accepted by Mormons, without converting to their religion. Now that I know I can never be “good” enough, even if I had converted, I am free to say what I think.

And I am very aware of problems in Catholicism. Don’t worry. It has been pushed in my face plenty of times by LDS people.

 

[grandfather]

Hi Jerusha,

I’m not following you. When did I attack the Catholic church? I wasn’t the one using terms like “the Morg,” and so on.

Bdawg,

We can be honest and frank and not take offense.

If I thought Mormonism was true I would be a Mormon. Mormonism and Catohlicism can not both be true. If you thought the Catholic Church was the true Church you would be Catholic.

I think your relgion is false and understand you think mine is. That does not offend or insult me personally. It does not mean I don’t like you or despise Mormons, because I think you believe in a false religion. I assume the same is true of your sentiments towards Catholics.

So while we will one another’s good we think one another’s religions are false.

I hope to see the destruction of Mormonism, because I believe it is false. I think people are harmed by it. It is ok with me if you want the whole world to be Mormon and all Catholics converted to your religion. If you believe your religion is true then you want everyone to know that truth and abandon whatever is untrue. If you believe your religion is true and don’t care if others embrace it you would be callous to others. You should want everyone to be Mormon. In order to accomplish this you should attack anything that you believe is false. You should attack Catholicism if you are being honest. It will not hurt my feelings and I expect nothing less.

Openly speak your mind. Earlier Mormons did that. I may think they are wacky, but they had the guts to say what they believed.
They said all other Christian religions are apostate or false and Smith was God’s prophet to straighten things out. Stick to the story. Don’t sugar coat it to make it more palatable or acceptable or less offensive. If all other Christian relgions are false, attack them. Go after them and try to destroy what is false. Expect the same from others. Don’t take offense when someone attacks your religion. I do not respect your religion. I think it is false. How could I respect what is false?

I realize you have been on a kick about not being black and white or seeing things in black and white. This is black and white stuff. Mormonism is true or false. Catholicism is true or false. A religion can be partly true, have some true precepts and false mixed in, but then it is ultimately false. It is either all true or it is false.

Ultimately truth will prevail. Everything that is false will not pass through the test of fire to come. God Himself, who is truth, will destroy and abolish all that is false. Very black and white stuff Dawg.

Lies will not endure. If your house is on the rock it will stand. If not it will perish. We can hold to our beliefs and we have to trust in them to get us through whatever life brings. If they are false we will not come to the destiny for which we are made. Much is at stake.

When we think about what hell is, eternal loss, eternal darkness, pain with no hope of relief, if we realize what it is, and Jesus clearly portrays it in the gospel, we plead to God for the salvation of souls. God have mercy on all Mormons. Save them. Do not let them perish. Have mercy on all souls.

We are for one another despite whatever we think about one another’s religion. This is a very important thing to realize. I will your good and nothing but your good. I believe what that means is that you reject Mormonism and be Catholic. I think that would be good for you. That should not upset you. Whether you do that or not does not change the fact that I will your good.

We can be open and frank and that should not cause any distress or rancor. It is good to be completely transparent in our motives. If we are we find goodwill in one another. My hope is that Mormonism is destroyed. My hope for your soul is the opposite, that you and all Mormons live forever with God in heaven.