How to get an ex-Mormon riled up

[BDawg]

Hi grandfather,

I think you are misunderstanding what I have been saying. See below.

You should want everyone to be Mormon. In order to accomplish this you should attack anything that you believe is false. You should attack Catholicism if you are being honest. It will not hurt my feelings and I expect nothing less.

If, by “attack,” you mean to argue against, I’m fine with that. But Jerusha wasn’t “attacking” Mormonism in that sense, because she didn’t really offer an argument. She just dropped a few insulting names. If that’s the kind of thing you respect in religious dialogue, then I guess we don’t have anything much to talk about.

Openly speak your mind. Earlier Mormons did that. I may think they are wacky, but they had the guts to say what they believed.
They said all other Christian religions are apostate or false and Smith was God’s prophet to straighten things out. Stick to the story. Don’t sugar coat it to make it more palatable or acceptable or less offensive. If all other Christian relgions are false, attack them. Go after them and try to destroy what is false. Expect the same from others. Don’t take offense when someone attacks your religion. I do not respect your religion. I think it is false. How could I respect what is false?

This is a case in point. Since when did Mormonism stop saying that all other religions are apostate? We still say that–we teach it to the newest converts and catechumens. But since when did Mormonism ever teach that all these apostate religions have no good in them whatsoever? We never said that–the Book of Mormon says just the opposite. “For behold, the Lord doth grant unto all nations, of their own nation and tongue, to teach his word, yea, in wisdom, all that he seeth fit that they should have; therefore we see that the Lord doth counsel in wisdom, according to that which is just and true” (Alma 29:8).

So now am I supposed to respect you for being a straight shootin’ kind of guy? Sorry. When your “attacks” consist of poorly informed assertions, you come off sounding… well, I’ll leave that to your imagination. Let’s just say that this sort of thing doesn’t give me any better impression of Catholicism.

We are for one another despite whatever we think about one another’s religion. This is a very important thing to realize. I will your good and nothing but your good. I believe what that means is that you reject Mormonism and be Catholic. I think that would be good for you. That should not upset you. Whether you do that or not does not change the fact that I will your good.

I have no problem with the fact that you disagree with me. Whatever gave you the opposite impression? Because I don’t put up with it when Jerusha and Rebecca hurl insults instead of arguments?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

How to get an ex-Mormon riled up? Gee, I guess you could tell him that his nine former polygamist wives all expect alimony? Heck I don’t know?

 

[RebeccaJ]

I have no problem with the fact that you disagree with me. Whatever gave you the opposite impression? Because I don’t put up with it when Jerusha and Rebecca hurl insults instead of arguments?

Look, I am really tired of you playing the victim here. In post #4 of this thread you said:

1. They can stick their heads in the sand and ignore it. This allows them to keep their black-and-white worldview.
2. They can calm down and try to figure out where their thinking was wrong. In other words, they can try to develop a more nuanced worldview. (Heck, I always thought that actually reading the Bible was a good cure for a black-and-white mentality, but scads of fundamentalists read it every day, and it doesn’t seem to make a dent.)
3. They might see very clearly that other religious systems have similar problems, and go atheist. This is essentially just keeping the black-and-white worldview, but turning it on its head.
4. They might choose another religion where they can keep a “black-and-white” worldview, and hope that the same problems don’t come up if they don’t look too hard.

Those who choose options 3 and 4 leave the Church. Those who choose options 1 and 2 generally don’t, but option 2 might lead some people to another religious system.

The attraction of option 3 is that you get to be a self-righteous prig, violently condemning your former religion while trying out all those little pleasures you don’t consider sins, anymore. You can put your fundamentalist faith in “science,” even though you don’t have a clue how science works. You can substitute whatever liberal values are in vogue for your former notion of morality, thus reinforcing your sense of self-righteousness.

The attraction of option 4 is that you get to be a self-righteous prig, violently condemning your former religion, but feeling emotionally safe, again. You don’t want to rock the boat, though, when it comes to your new religion, because you might be confronted with another “grey area” crisis.

I believe that many of the ex-Mormons who post here (not all) took option 4. (From what I remember of you, Bart, I would not necessarily put you in this category.) One of my tactics here has been to turn charges made against Mormonism on their heads, showing how the same or very similar criticisms could be made with respect to Catholicism, the Bible, or whatever. This turns some of the ex-Mormons here absolutely rabid. Why? Because I’m killing the buzz they get by condemning their former faith and holding onto a “safe” fundamentalist version of Catholicism.

So, who exactly are the Catholic prigs bdawg? And there you are all smug in your #2 classification. “Look at me, I classified myself as smart!”

I called you on this, and you object to how I argue. That I’m not nice enough. Poor baby, don’t you know that is how prigs are, we’re not nice.

And then you continue to assert, repeatedly, that my FAITH is as shallow as a “pollyana fluff”!!

Everything you believe is that a person who chooses to not be Mormon is somehow defunct of complex thought, and chooses something that is clearly to you, lacking in even the smallest amount of faith.

Don’t think that you can start flinging insults about people who have left mormonism, and that everyone is just going to sit and nod and agree and congratulate you on how insightful and intelligent you are.

And don’t expect that I’m a nice piece of polyanna fluff that is going to bow down to your ever increasing passive aggressive bs.

 

[BDawg]

Once again, Rebecca, you only hear what you want to. In the snippet you just posted, but apparently didn’t read carefully, I clearly said that someone who chose option #2 could end up leaving the Church. So contrary to your rant, I reserved a place in the “smart” category for some ex-Mormons. And really, I didn’t mean those categories to only apply to Mormons and ex-Mormons. The same things could be said about Catholics and ex-Catholics, etc.

As for your faith, my point is that you are apparently ignoring some aspects of Catholic teaching, just like you ignored some aspects of Mormon teaching.

And all that kind of commentary came AFTER you called Mormonism a “mind (f-bomb)” and said some obviously false things about Mormon teaching. So whether you were insulted by my comments, or not, at least they were packaged in an actual argument, instead of profanity.

 

[grandfather]

So now am I supposed to respect you for being a straight shootin’ kind of guy? Sorry. When your “attacks” consist of poorly informed assertions, you come off sounding… well, I’ll leave that to your imagination. Let’s just say that this sort of thing doesn’t give me any better impression of Catholicism.

 

[BDawg]

So, who exactly are the Catholic prigs bdawg?

I said they were the people who can’t stop themselves from hurling insults at their former religion (not necessarily Mormonism.) And in case you were wondering, I wasn’t thinking specifically of you at the time. But since you dropped the “f-bomb,” I had to take advantage of the fact that you were providing a perfect example of my point.

Notice also that in this thread I have said that I thought Bart and x–both ex-Mormons–seem like pretty reasonable people, and don’t come off as screeching apostates. In other words, you can complain all you want about how I pigeonhole ex-Mormons, but the fact is that I didn’t. Of the three ex-Mormons that have posted on this thread, YOU are the only one I have accused of being a black-and-white thinker, and of lobbing insults instead of arguments. Just YOU. Why do you think that is? Do I have some special anti-Rebecca vendetta? Or could it possibly be that you might have said something that went WAY over the top?

I called you on this, and you object to how I argue. That I’m not nice enough. Poor baby, don’t you know that is how prigs are, we’re not nice.

When did you call me on that? I saw no connection between your f-bomb and my post. And when did you make an argument that I could object to? Insults aren’t arguments.

 

[BDawg]

I don’t care a bit what you think of me. It matters nothing to me what you think of my religion. Zilch!

Obviously.

You also don’t seem to care a bit about whether you tell the truth about others’ religions. I told you, and even quoted some of our scriptures to demonstrate, that your characterization of the history of Mormon rhetoric about other religions is blatantly false. But this fact doesn’t seem to register on your mind at all! Doesn’t bother you a bit!

I can accept that you don’t care what I think of people like that, but since this is a public forum, I’ll follow your advice and be blunt. I’ll point out falsehoods when I see them.

 

[majick275]

Obviously.

You also don’t seem to care a bit about whether you tell the truth about others’ religions. I told you, and even quoted some of our scriptures to demonstrate, that your characterization of the history of Mormon rhetoric about other religions is blatantly false. But this fact doesn’t seem to register on your mind at all! Doesn’t bother you a bit!

I can accept that you don’t care what I think of people like that, but since this is a public forum, I’ll follow your advice and be blunt. I’ll point out falsehoods when I see them.

mormon scripture currently states that no other church is true, the creeds are an abomination and all who profess them corrupt. whatever spin you wish to apply to that is irrelevant. mormon scripture also states that there are only two churches, God’s and the Devil’s. when you put these two doctrines together it is easy to see where Bruce r. Mconkie got his ideas. even if you wave off his writings you still have these canonized scriptures that basically say the same thing. I am not bothered that mormonism believes this, I am bothered that they try to hide this when in missionary mode.

 

[Jerusha]

But Jerusha wasn’t “attacking” Mormonism in that sense, because she didn’t really offer an argument. She just dropped a few insulting names…

“For behold, the Lord doth grant unto all nations, of their own nation and tongue, to teach his word, yea, in wisdom, all that he seeth fit that they should have; therefore we see that the Lord doth counsel in wisdom, according to that which is just and true” (Alma 29:8)…

Because I don’t put up with it when Jerusha and Rebecca hurl insults instead of arguments?

Perhaps I might be writing a book, in which I present my arguments on a more sophisticated level. I could just be collecting information, and witholding it until the time is right. Perhaps Rebecca is doing the same thing. Don’t make assumptions that the only thing women are capable of is “hurling insults”.

I agree with you, there are some real gems in the BOM. Perhaps LDS people could learn from that-- like in respecting people of different cultures.

 

[grandfather]

mormon scripture currently states that no other church is true, the creeds are an abomination and all who profess them corrupt. whatever spin you wish to apply to that is irrelevant. mormon scripture also states that there are only two churches, God’s and the Devil’s. when you put these two doctrines together it is easy to see where Bruce r. Mconkie got his ideas. even if you wave off his writings you still have these canonized scriptures that basically say the same thing. I am not bothered that mormonism believes this, I am bothered that they try to hide this when in missionary mode.

Their tactics and theology change. Defending change, or denying it, becomes problematic, but nothing seems to phase them. There is not a shred of evidence of the great North American civilizations their founder reveals. No problem though. The Easter Bunny is still real. There is not a shred of evidence of an apostacy in the historical record. History does not hide the controversies and heresies and scandals. The warts are all there, but no dispute that led to what the Church believes from what Mormons believe to have restored. THere is no evidence that Christians ever believed anything remotely resembling Mormonism. No problem.

What is the lesson here, beyond what some cult or sect believes? How vulnerable people are to be led into believing just about anything, no matter how bizarre. There is no convincing them they are following fables. These forums go over again and again the same issues about God the Father having a body and having sex with Mary, or stange planets, having your own planet with a gazillion wives, the Masonic origins, denying past teachings. It gets nowhere. The denial is insane.

It becomes impossible to not see Mormon apolgists as disingenuous.

I am a relatively new member in a local Rotary club. I went there not knowing more than three or four people out of fifty. There were several members that seemed strange. Something about them was distant, unfriendly. They seemed wary of something. They just did not shake your hand and connect. They interacted with others in an awkward way. I wondered why are these guys so stiff. Turns out they are all Mormons.

Nowadays they are trying to fit into the rest of society and be a bit more integrated for whatever reason, not be so different. It is not working very well at the Rotary club.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I said they were the people who can’t stop themselves from hurling insults at their former religion (not necessarily Mormonism.) And in case you were wondering, I wasn’t thinking specifically of you at the time. But since you dropped the “f-bomb,” I had to take advantage of the fact that you were providing a perfect example of my point.

you seem rather bothered by my f-bomb. I have to say, that doesn’t really bother me.

At any rate, you still haven’t addressed what I said, other than your make believe world of bdawg where what you pronounce is so and everything that happens in the world proves how incredibly right you are about everything. (For your pysch interest, this is called narcissism.)

Notice also that in this thread I have said that I thought Bart and x–both ex-Mormons–seem like pretty reasonable people, and don’t come off as screeching apostates. In other words, you can complain all you want about how I pigeonhole ex-Mormons, but the fact is that I didn’t.

Yes, I understand. A continuance of bdawg’s wonderful world of “I AM A GOD”. I say it is so, so therefore it is. And look how you point out who acts in a pleasing manner to the god named bdawg and those who don’t.

News flash: you aren’t my god

Of the three ex-Mormons that have posted on this thread, YOU are the only one I have accused of being a black-and-white thinker, and of lobbing insults instead of arguments. Just YOU. Why do you think that is? Do I have some special anti-Rebecca vendetta? Or could it possibly be that you might have said something that went WAY over the top?

I said something you can’t handle, apparently.

When did you call me on that? I saw no connection between your f-bomb and my post. And when did you make an argument that I could object to? Insults aren’t arguments.

That is because you see what you want to see, hear what you want to hear, and apparently swearing sends you into a tailspin.

How about if instead I say, YOU HAVE BEEN DECEIVED.

Feel better?

 

[BDawg]

mormon scripture currently states that no other church is true, the creeds are an abomination and all who profess them corrupt. whatever spin you wish to apply to that is irrelevant. mormon scripture also states that there are only two churches, God’s and the Devil’s. when you put these two doctrines together it is easy to see where Bruce r. Mconkie got his ideas. even if you wave off his writings you still have these canonized scriptures that basically say the same thing. I am not bothered that mormonism believes this, I am bothered that they try to hide this when in missionary mode.

So you are saying that my quotation from the Book of Mormon was just “spinning” the truth? From my point of view, it seems like Alma 29:8 just adds depth to my understanding of how LDS view other religions. Yes, no other church is true, the creeds are an abomination, and so on. But at the same time, God has given every people and culture some of His truth. And as far as LDS having any particular animosity toward Catholicism, here’s an interesting quotation from Joseph Smith.

“Here is a principle of logic that most men have no more sense than to adopt. I will illustrate it by an old apple tree. Here jumps off a branch and says, I am the true tree, and you are corrupt. If the whole tree is corrupt, are not its branches corrupt? If the Catholic religion is a false religion, how can any true religion come out of it? If the Catholic church is bad, how can any good thing come out of it? The character of the old churches have always been slandered by all apostates since the world began.” (Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 7 vols. 6:478)

Apparently, he considered Catholicism and Orthodoxy to be more “true” than the Protestant sects.

So from my perspective, I am just trying to give a fleshed-out view of what LDS believe about other religions, while you are leaving a whole lot out.

Like I said to Rebecca, some people only see what they want to see.

 

[BDawg]

Perhaps I might be writing a book, in which I present my arguments on a more sophisticated level. I could just be collecting information, and witholding it until the time is right. Perhaps Rebecca is doing the same thing. Don’t make assumptions that the only thing women are capable of is “hurling insults”.

I’m sorry–when exactly did I say that “women” are only capable of “hurling insults”? I thought I said “Jerusha and Rebecca.”

I agree with you, there are some real gems in the BOM. Perhaps LDS people could learn from that-- like in respecting people of different cultures.
Well, maybe I’ll have to back off a bit and retract my accusation. I agree with you here, and in fact, I have noticed that a good number of LDS people (maybe 10-30% of the ones who show up at church) have a big problem in this area. And the problem is worse in rural, small-town environments like the one you live in. To me, this seems like a general problem in many small towns (whether Mormon or not), and is one reason I stick to the suburbs while raising my kids.

But there is hope. Every time someone says something negative about another church in sunday school, for instance, my experience has been that one or two people will follow up by commenting that there is a lot of good in other churches, and lots of very good people belong to them. Someone will usually also comment that they really look up to some non-Mormon acquaintance or relative, and wish they were more like that person.

 

[BDawg]

At any rate, you still haven’t addressed what I said, other than your make believe world of bdawg where what you pronounce is so and everything that happens in the world proves how incredibly right you are about everything. (For your pysch interest, this is called narcissism.)

What did you say that I didn’t address?

 

[RebeccaJ]

What did you say that I didn’t address?

“Mormonism has not changed in this respect. Not as long as you believe that you can be and have to be worthy of God’s love”

Would you like me to post what mormons teach, or are we going to start off with your testimony?

 

[BDawg]

“Mormonism has not changed in this respect. Not as long as you believe that you can be and have to be worthy of God’s love”

Would you like me to post what mormons teach, or are we going to start off with your testimony?

But I did respond to this–I said it was false. I have never been taught that God won’t love me unless I’m “worthy”. I’ve always been taught that God loves sinners and reaches out to them.

I’m not sure what your last sentence means, but if it means that you want to post some quotations of LDS sources to support your interpretation, then please do.

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

There are at least three ex-Mormons I know at my school (one of them being a teacher). Mormons follow a strict lifestyle, and from what I’ve seen in those three ex-Mormons, leaving that lifestyle makes them realize, “I’m free…” So, those three ex-Mormons have become more fun-loving than a born Agnostic and have turned against all forms of Christianity for “what they’ve done to them”.

It’s an interesting thing to see, really. They want to see a more liberal and kinder world that’s based upon common sense and basic morals in order to live a more carefree and loving life. I must say, ex-Mormons become the best Agnostics ever!

…but hey! That’s just my opinion.

Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood

 

[mfbukowski]

I’m sorry–when exactly did I say that “women” are only capable of “hurling insults”? I thought I said “Jerusha and Rebecca.”

I agree with you, there are some real gems in the BOM. Perhaps LDS people could learn from that-- like in respecting people of different cultures.
Well, maybe I’ll have to back off a bit and retract my accusation. I agree with you here, and in fact, I have noticed that a good number of LDS people (maybe 10-30% of the ones who show up at church) have a big problem in this area. And the problem is worse in rural, small-town environments like the one you live in. To me, this seems like a general problem in many small towns (whether Mormon or not), and is one reason I stick to the suburbs while raising my kids.

But there is hope. Every time someone says something negative about another church in sunday school, for instance, my experience has been that one or two people will follow up by commenting that there is a lot of good in other churches, and lots of very good people belong to them. Someone will usually also comment that they really look up to some non-Mormon acquaintance or relative, and wish they were more like that person.

You mean there actually ARE advantages to living in LA?

 

[mfbukowski]

I’m sorry–when exactly did I say that “women” are only capable of “hurling insults”? I thought I said “Jerusha and Rebecca.”

Well, maybe I’ll have to back off a bit and retract my accusation. I agree with you here, and in fact, I have noticed that a good number of LDS people (maybe 10-30% of the ones who show up at church) have a big problem in this area. And the problem is worse in rural, small-town environments like the one you live in. To me, this seems like a general problem in many small towns (whether Mormon or not), and is one reason I stick to the suburbs while raising my kids.

But there is hope. Every time someone says something negative about another church in sunday school, for instance, my experience has been that one or two people will follow up by commenting that there is a lot of good in other churches, and lots of very good people belong to them. Someone will usually also comment that they really look up to some non-Mormon acquaintance or relative, and wish they were more like that person.

You mean there actually are some advantages to living in LA?

 

[RebeccaJ]

But I did respond to this–I said it was false. I have never been taught that God won’t love me unless I’m “worthy”. I’ve always been taught that God loves sinners and reaches out to them.

I’m not sure what your last sentence means, but if it means that you want to post some quotations of LDS sources to support your interpretation, then please do.

I am glad that it is false for you. Really, I am. And no, I am not going to try and convince you that God does not love you. That is not something that I believe.