How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[Church_Militant]

I think I understand the “baptism doesn’t save” argument now. Getting baptized is merely a demonstration of your obedience to Jesus’s commands, but it doesn’t do

anything, because if it did something, it would be a work, and no works can be any benefit to our salvation. In other words, baptism is empty of purpose, but not of meaning. It’s a public display of your obedience to Jesus, but nothing more.

It’s the only way I can see to validate a “necessity” for baptism without making baptism necessary for salvation: so that everyone knows you’re serious about following Jesus.Yeah… you understand it. However, is it consistent with the New Testament?

 

[japhy]

Yeah… you understand it. However, is it consistent with the New Testament?

Oh, no, not at all. I’m just saying I’d never understood how you could say “baptism isn’t required for salvation” and “if you’re a Christian, you’ve gotta get baptized” without going crazy. Now I think I see how they rationalize it, but it doesn’t fit with the theology of the Church laid out in the New Testament. Paul himself (in Acts 22:16) connects water baptism with the washing away of sins… please tell me he didn’t do that just to be confusing!

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Kindly explain the overwheming evidence of Fox’s book of martyrs.

I am still waiting.

Kindly read the Introduction to Foxe’s Book of Martyrs.

 

[jmcrae]

Oh, no, not at all. I’m just saying I’d never understood how you could say “baptism isn’t required for salvation” and “if you’re a Christian, you’ve gotta get baptized” without going crazy. Now I think I see how they rationalize it, but it doesn’t fit with the theology of the Church laid out in the New Testament. Paul himself (in Acts 22:16) connects water baptism with the washing away of sins… please tell me he didn’t do that just to be confusing!

Good points. I still think it’s a species of insanity, though - or at least a form of double-think, to say, “This is required for Christians to do,” and at the same time, “Christians are not required to do this.”

The Christian life (which is what it means when we say that we “follow Christ”), how ever that plays out in the life of the individual Christian, is required for salvation - and for most of us, especially those reading along, this includes the Sacraments, Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation, fasting on the appointed days, abstinence from meat or penance on Fridays, the faithful following of our particular vocation, and the support of the Church to the best of our ability. We are all required to be Saints, because to be a Saint is the same thing as to be a follower of Jesus Christ.

Whether he is Catholic or not, a person who is not striving for Sainthood in this life, isn’t really following Christ - he is one of those “goats” in the parable of the nations, who preached in Christ’s name, but never actually followed any of Christ’s commandments - never helped the poor and the sick, or visited the prisoners or those in hospital, etc.

 

[Church_Militant]

Oh, no, not at all. I’m just saying I’d never understood how you could say “baptism isn’t required for salvation” and “if you’re a Christian, you’ve gotta get baptized” without going crazy. Now I think I see how they rationalize it, but it doesn’t fit with the theology of the Church laid out in the New Testament. Paul himself (in Acts 22:16) connects water baptism with the washing away of sins… please tell me he didn’t do that just to be confusing!

Exactly! Which is what I took you to mean.

 

[japhy]

The Christian life (which is what it means when we say that we “follow Christ”), how ever that plays out in the life of the individual Christian, is required for salvation - and for most of us, especially those reading along, this includes the Sacraments, Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation, fasting on the appointed days, abstinence from meat or penance on Fridays, the faithful following of our particular vocation, and the support of the Church to the best of our ability. We are all required to be Saints, because to be a Saint is the same thing as to be a follower of Jesus Christ.

Whether he is Catholic or not, a person who is not striving for Sainthood in this life, isn’t really following Christ - he is one of those “goats” in the parable of the nations, who preached in Christ’s name, but never actually followed any of Christ’s commandments - never helped the poor and the sick, or visited the prisoners or those in hospital, etc.

It’s one of the facets of the Gospel that a lot of Protestants ignore, that while we are unworthy of the grace we receive we are expected to live worthily as Christians. Most non-Catholics will never say they’re trying to be “worthy” of anything because they can’t be. That’s not what the Gospels say, that’s not what Paul’s letters say (as I explain in the second half of this blog post, some of which I’ve already written up in this thread, none of which xfrodobagginsx has responded to).

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

So you believe a book written by a die-hard protestant who apparently hated the Church and would do anything to discredit it? It’s like reading Dawkin’s God’s Delusion and considering it as your cannon for refutation of religion.

But fine, here you have a pretty good website about the book. As far as I know none of the authors are so you don’t have to worry about Catholic bias in it. It’s just a historical take of the book, including the actual text in various versions, the art and essays about the book.

Here is a particularly nice introductory essay ‘“St Peter did not do thus”: Papal history in the Acts and Monuments’ by Dr. Tomas Freeman.

Here is a Catholic take on the book from various other place:
Acts and Monuments by Richard Clarke
New Advent Encyclopedia

And here is something from Encyclopedia Britannica on John Fox

Facts are facts. Read the book for yourself.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

I think I understand the “baptism doesn’t save” argument now. Getting baptized is merely a demonstration of your obedience to Jesus’s commands, but it doesn’t do anything, because if it did something, it would be a work, and no works can be any benefit to our salvation. In other words, baptism is empty of purpose, but not of meaning. It’s a public display of your obedience to Jesus, but nothing more.

It’s the only way I can see to validate a “necessity” for baptism without making baptism necessary for salvation: so that everyone knows you’re serious about following Jesus.

You’ve got it! That’s right. It’s the same with going to church, observing the Lord’s supper, and good deeds, they don’t save, they are just a demonstration of your obedience to Christ.

 

[jmcrae]

Facts are facts. Read the book for yourself.

Why should someone read a work of fiction to attempt to get at facts?

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Baptism is a work. It is God’s work that saves us through baptism, not our work. We do get baptised out of obedience to Christ, He is the one who ordered it afterall. So, we get baptized out of obedience to Christ, and God then works through baptism to save you. See, we are saved by works…the works of God.

No, that’s not what it is saying. The baptism is an act of obedience, but it is merely an outward showing of what happens inside. You ARE doing works when you get baptized and it doesn’t save. That is a WORK of obedience.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

The washing is not baptism. It is the washing by the Holy Ghost.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

I believe the Bible (God’s word) and Apostolic Tradition (God’s word). I therefore choose to reject the lie that we are saved by faith alone. “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” James 2:24.

What is the meaning of this passege?

Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law

 

[jmcrae]

The washing is not baptism. It is the washing by the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost washes our sins away when we are baptized.

 

[jmcrae]

What is the meaning of this passege?

Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law

Deeds of the law are not the same things as works of righteousness.

Deeds of the law are things like being circumcised, not eating pork, and that sort of thing - the disciplines of the Jewish faith. These things have been superceded by the laws of Christ, and are no longer in effect.

Works of righteousness are what we do in obedience to Christ - feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and imprisoned, and participating in the Sacraments of His Church. These things are necessary for our salvation.

 

[Gamera]

What is the meaning of this passege?

Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law

It means that adherence to the Law of Moses does not save. Read the next line. “Or is God the God of Jews only?” Rom. 3:29. St Paul is explaining that salvation is for all peoples, not just for the Jews (who perform works of the Law of Moses) but also for the gentiles (who do not follow the Law of Moses).

You confuse “works of the law” with “works.” Two different things. Read the WHOLE chapter. Nowhere does Romans chapter 3 say that “works” in general are uninvolved in salvation. That isn’t even his topic! His topic is the availability of salvation to both Jew and gentile. St Paul tells us that works OF THE LAW do not save.

 

[Mannyfit75]

jmrae made a good point, frodo. You would to read it careful.

I also like to state that we are judge by our actions not by faith.

The Scripture and the Catholic Church strongly affirms this very clearly.

Matthew 25:31-46 made this point very clearly.

It reads:

**When the Son of man come in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separate the sheep from the goat, and he will place the sheep on his right hand, but the goat at his left. Then the King will say to those at his right hand.

“Come, O blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry you and you gave me food; I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcome me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.” **Then the righteous will answer him, “Lord, when did we see you hungry, and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?” And the King will answer them, “Truly, I say to you did it to one of the least of my brethren, you did it to me.” Then he will say to those at his left hand. “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food; I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.” Then they will answer, “Lord, when did I we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?” Then He will answer them, “Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.” And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

frodo, my friend. Like I said, we are **not judge by our faith **but we are judge what we do in this life.

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

O Frodo Baggins!

Do you see the irony in your Forum name?

One of the 20th century’s finest Catholic authors and a translator for the Jerusalem Bible: J R R Tolkein.

To keep this name and continue to attack his and our Faith would smack of hypocrisy, doncha think???

Robert

 

[maurin]

What is the meaning of this passege?

Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law

And what is the meaning of this one?

See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:24.

IF what you say is true, then it seems the Scriptures are contradicting themselves. Now we both know the Scriptures are infallible, because the infallible Church Christ founded taught you so about 1,600 years ago.

It seems your interpretation of Paul is not quite what Paul had in mind.

 

[japhy]

You’ve got it! That’s right. It’s the same with going to church, observing the Lord’s supper, and good deeds, they don’t save, they are just a demonstration of your obedience to Christ.

If obedience does not save, does disobedience condemn? That is, can you be saved despite disobedience to the commandments of Christ? If so, to what degree? How disobedient can you be?

 

[japhy]

The baptism is an act of obedience, but it is merely an outward showing of what happens inside. You ARE doing works when you get baptized and it doesn’t save. That is a WORK of obedience.

The Catholic Church disagrees with you; the Scripture seems to display a causality and a necessity for baptism:

And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38)

“And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.” (Acts 22:16)

For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (Gal 3:27)

Baptism, which corresponds to [the ark of Noah], now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (1 Pet 3:21)

When Paul talks about baptism, he speaks of it affecting a change: we are baptized into the death of Jesus Christ. It’s not for show, it’s not just a display of obedience, it is a sacramental act.

Paul says Jesus commanded him to preach the gospel, not baptize. That’s because before these nations could be baptized, they needed to be preached to first.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

No, that’s not what it is saying. The baptism is an act of obedience, but it is merely an outward showing of what happens inside. You ARE doing works when you get baptized and it doesn’t save. That is a WORK of obedience.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

The washing is not baptism. It is the washing by the Holy Ghost.

1. Please tell me where in the Bible it says “baptism is an outward showing of what happens inside.” I always heard that preached at my Baptist church but I never could find that verse. I’d be ever so grateful if you would point it out to me.
2. God is the one Who does the work in baptism. It is not our “work of righteousness” but His “washing of regeneration” that saves us, just like that verse you posted says.