How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[guanophore]

Basically, you are saying that most Catholics are completely uninformed and are not true disciples. They spend much more time with the world and dabbling in the affairs of the world rather than doing all to the glory of God. Why is that?

I can tell you this…you have no excuse whatsoever in my church to not know the gospel from dozens of angles while growing up there. It took going to a Baptist Church.

I left the Catholic Church too, to attend a Baptist congregation. I was poorly catechized, did not know my bible, and was raised in a family that did not practice the faith they claimed to espouse. Why is that? Personal human failings. Shall we indict the teachings of Jesus on the basis of human shortcomings? May it never be!

No, Judas’ failure to follow the faith that Jesus taught is not a bad reflection on the faith He taught. My teachers and parents did a poor job of communicating that faith, but it does not nullify that faith.

 

[guanophore]

Basically, you are saying that most Catholics are completely uninformed and are not true disciples. They spend much more time with the world and dabbling in the affairs of the world rather than doing all to the glory of God. Why is that?

I can tell you this…you have no excuse whatsoever in my church to not know the gospel from dozens of angles while growing up there. It took going to a Baptist Church.

I left the Catholic Church too, to attend a Baptist congregation. I was poorly catechized, did not know my bible, and was raised in a family that did not practice the faith they claimed to espouse. Why is that? Personal human failings. Shall we indict the teachings of Jesus on the basis of human shortcomings? May it never be!

No, Judas’ failure to follow the faith that Jesus taught is not a bad reflection on the faith He taught. My teachers and parents did a poor job of communicating that faith, but it does not nullify that faith.

But you do not “give yourself to Mary” as Pope John Paul II’s prayers insinuate?

Why do you use the word “insinuate”? It is as if you think the thought is objectionable!

Mary is “in Christ”, as the very first Christian in this world. She is the first one of whom it was said by Jesus “greater is the least in the Kingdom than John”. Mary’s will is completely subjected to God, as she eternally says “be it done to me according to Thy will”. Would that every Christian on earth could give themselves to this type of devotion to Christ! May each one also, as Mary does, “do whatever He tells you”. And may each one “keep all these things” in their heart. What, indeed, do you see in Mary that is so opposed to Christ? How is devotion to her way of life any different than that of St. Paul?

 

[Delphinus85]

As my priest said this Sunday:
If Christianity was just about getting your little soul into heaven that would certainly make it a petty thing. It‘s not just all about you.

AMEN!

 

[Church_Militant]

Dude bailed again…

 

[Zooey]

The catholic bible is different from the protestant bible, so how do you figure that they are the reason for my bible?

That is actually off this topic Frodo. You’d be better off to open a new thread to ask that.

It is OT, but I will just point out, Frodo, that the differences between Bibles is a matter of some Protestant Bibles continuing the 19th century innovation of omitting the Deuterocanon.
It’s not a whole other Book, laddie. It’s just that the one you’re using is the:wink: Reader’s Digest Condensed Version.

 

[mozart-250]

Could you please explain something for me?

Of course I can understand “By Trusting Jesus Christ Alone As Lord And Saviour”. I ended up ultimately voting for this despite two nitpicks: (1) The phrase could have connotations of a one time sacrament called the sinner’s prayer being a type of fire insurance (2) The phrase is somewhat steeped in denominational Christianese.

I can understand voting for “Other” if you nitpick over certain aspects of the above. That is the nature of polls with a catch all category of other…if the “right answer” still has faults or is incomplete…you can always click “Other” if it is available and you want to. That is what makes online polls tricky.

I can understand outliers on “By Praying to Mary” or “By Being Good”. Perhaps the “By Being Good” was by non-Christians. Probably the one “By praying to Mary” is just an outlier.

But the large number of “By Trusting in the Church” answers honestly baffles me and troubles me. Where does the Catholic teach that by “Trusting in the Church” you get to heaven? I thought it definitely did not teach this.

At any rate (ignoring the “Other” responses because they are understandable) it seems that Catholics disagree on “How To Get To Heaven When You Die”. Some think it is by trusting in Christ, some think it is by trusting in the church. Since this is kind of an important question, this is troubling in itself.

 

[Stephen_C]

Could you please explain something for me?

Of course I can understand “By Trusting Jesus Christ Alone As Lord And Saviour”. I ended up ultimately voting for this despite two nitpicks: (1) The phrase could have connotations of a one time sacrament called the sinner’s prayer being a type of fire insurance (2) The phrase is somewhat steeped in denominational Christianese.

I can understand voting for “Other” if you nitpick over certain aspects of the above. That is the nature of polls with a catch all category of other…if the “right answer” still has faults or is incomplete…you can always click “Other” if it is available and you want to. That is what makes online polls tricky.

I can understand outliers on “By Praying to Mary” or “By Being Good”. Perhaps the “By Being Good” was by non-Christians. Probably the one “By praying to Mary” is just an outlier.

But the large number of “By Trusting in the Church” answers honestly baffles me and troubles me. Where does the Catholic teach that by “Trusting in the Church” you get to heaven? I thought it definitely did not teach this.

At any rate (ignoring the “Other” responses because they are understandable) it seems that Catholics disagree on “How To Get To Heaven When You Die”. Some think it is by trusting in Christ, some think it is by trusting in the church. Since this is kind of an important question, this is troubling in itself.

I suppose it is how you define “The Church”. At the very least this poll is faulty and a strawman. It is kinda like the sinners prayer. All you have to do is say it and you are saved. Nothing else is required.

 

[japhy]

Then who was the publican confessing his sins to?

Lu 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

That’s completely out of context. The publican is a Jew (not a Christian), in the temple (not a church), and the story is a parable.

**If there is ONE mediator between God and men and its Jesus then who do we go to if we need to get to God? **

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

This verse is used all the time for this issue. First of all, only four verses before this one, Paul says that “supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men”. Paul is advocating intercessory prayer, where one man prays on behalf of another. This practice is VERY big throughout ALL of Christianity, and it makes us each intercessors for one another TO Christ.

Second, the role of mediator of the covenant – identified by 1 Timothy 2:3-6 and Hebrews (esp. 8:6, 9:15, and 12:24) – identifies Jesus Christ as the only one who established this new covenant and keeps it valid (compare Jesus with Moses in this regard), by “[giving] himself as a ransom for all” (1 Tim 2:6) despite our sins, because his “sprinkled blood …] speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel” (Heb 12:24).

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

I suppose it is how you define “The Church”. At the very least this poll is faulty and a strawman. It is kinda like the sinners prayer. All you have to do is say it and you are saved. Nothing else is required.

This condenses the entire bible to Romans 10:9-10, something you could fit on an index card.

 

[mozart-250]

I suppose it is how you define “The Church”. At the very least this poll is faulty and a strawman. It is kinda like the sinners prayer. All you have to do is say it and you are saved. Nothing else is required.

Well if you don’t like the poll, vote “Other”. As I said, I at least understand the concept of voting “Other”.

I just don’t understand the answer “By Trusting in the Church”. Does Catholicism really teach that by “Trusting in the Church” you will get to heaven when you die? I have understood that it does not teach that.

If my understanding is incorrect, then please show me where it teaches that. I of course will argue that point vigorously, but at least I will understand Catholicism more.

If my understanding is correct, then if this poll is representative of Catholics in general, I must conclude that a sizeable minority of Catholics misunderstand the teaching of their own denomination on this very important question (and this seems odd in itself).

 

[Stephen_C]

Well if you don’t like the poll, vote “Other”. As I said, I at least understand the concept of voting “Other”.

I just don’t understand the answer “By Trusting in the Church”. Does Catholicism really teach that by “Trusting in the Church” you will get to heaven when you die? I have understood that it does not teach that.

If my understanding is incorrect, then please show me where it teaches that. I of course will argue that point vigorously, but at least I will understand Catholicism more.

If my understanding is correct, then if this poll is representative of Catholics in general, I must conclude that a sizeable minority of Catholics misunderstand the teaching of their own denomination on this very important question (and this seems odd in itself).

Actually I choose other……but one must define “The Church” first. After all that is what Jesus left. He did not leave leave us the bible. He left his Church. It is through his Church that we gain salvation. Either overtly or in the case of non-Catholic Christians covertly.

 

[mercygate]

Well if you don’t like the poll, vote “Other”. As I said, I at least understand the concept of voting “Other”.

I just don’t understand the answer “By Trusting in the Church”. Does Catholicism really teach that by “Trusting in the Church” you will get to heaven when you die? I have understood that it does not teach that.

If my understanding is incorrect, then please show me where it teaches that. I of course will argue that point vigorously, but at least I will understand Catholicism more.

If my understanding is correct, then if this poll is representative of Catholics in general, I must conclude that a sizeable minority of Catholics misunderstand the teaching of their own denomination on this very important question (and this seems odd in itself).

The only way you could understand “trusting in the Church” as a ‘formula’ for getting into heaven would by understanding that the Church is Christ’s privileged means to lead His people to Himself. If we trust the Church and follow her guidance, it is the same thing as following Christ because the Church is His Body and Bride.

But we can be pretty sure that the pollster meant “follow a bunch of rules and regulations” when he said “following the Church.” And that would certainly not be Church teaching.

 

[Tomster]

That really doesn’t matter. I have shown you straight from the Word of God and from history where you are wrong. Why do you cling to things that have been proven wrong with the Word of God and facts?

You cannot trace any apostolic succession from the Baptist church to the apostles and Christ…it’s not there.

You can do that with the Catholic Church using verifiable history and not baseless propaganda.

I have supported every aspect of Catholic teaching that you have challenged using the Word of God without any mental or theological gymnastics, and all you have done so far is deny that it is true but have yet to prove any of it.

Listen carefully to the Holy Spirit Frodo and hear what He is saying to you. You will hear Him say the same thing that Our Lord said to St. Paul on the road to Damascus. “…It is hard for thee to kick against the goad.” (Acts 9:5 & 26:14)

C.M.,

" . . . . and all you have done so far is deny that it is true but have yet to prove any of it." There it is. You have hit the nail squarely on the head. Frodo’s position can stated quite simply: No Church . . . no one but Jesus Christ can save you restates the uselessness of the Church. Detonated, such explosive ideas fragmented Protestantism into an ever expanding number of individual sects. If the self interpreted Bible is the only communication from God to man, and each man is justified by “faith alone,” of course the Church is irrelevant. Frodo believes the dogmas of Luther, so we get the dogmatic statement, “No Church” can save you, " Jesus only can save you."

The falsehood here is that we must choose between Christ and the Church, that He saves us independently of the Church. The truth is that He saves us through the Church.

 

[deanarrca]

Well if you don’t like the poll, vote “Other”. As I said, I at least understand the concept of voting “Other”.

I just don’t understand the answer “By Trusting in the Church”. Does Catholicism really teach that by “Trusting in the Church” you will get to heaven when you die? I have understood that it does not teach that.

If my understanding is incorrect, then please show me where it teaches that. I of course will argue that point vigorously, but at least I will understand Catholicism more.

If my understanding is correct, then if this poll is representative of Catholics in general, I must conclude that a sizeable minority of Catholics misunderstand the teaching of their own denomination on this very important question (and this seems odd in itself).

I am not Catholic yet- (Hopefully in full Communion by November- I am in RCIA) So this is the perception I am getting. Catholics and Protestatnts have a different understanding of “Church” and use the term differently. As protestants “Church” or what Church you belong to is separate from being a “Christian”. In other words Church refers to your denomination. Non-Catholic Christians, when they ask a Catholic “what religion are you?”. many Catholics will respond “Catholic.” The non-Catholic immediately assumes Catholics place their denomination above being Christian. So a non-Catholic will usually always say he his Christian first then his denomination.
But what I am learning from Catholics is totally different -they view it different. They don’t separate their Christianity from their
denomination. To be Catholic is to be Christian and to be Christian is to be Catholic. It is the same thing. They use the words interchangebly. To belong to the Church is to belong to Christ. The Church is the Body and Bride of Christ. If you are in the body (not cut off from the body) You are the Church and hence your salvation is in the Church. You could also look at it that the Church was established by Christ to be the vehicle by which the Gospel is spread, Grace is administered through the sacraments, and it is there to nurture and build up the saints. In that way it saves too. It is not they they place any faith in fallible humans since we know individuals are fallible. It is they have faith in Christ that he will preserve his Church in truth. So to trust the Church is to trust Christ.
I would have personally picked other too. But I certainly, at least I think, I understand why they would chose to trust the Church. Trusting the Church is to trust Christ who established the Church and promised to protect it and keep the Gates of Hell from prevailing against. The Churches mission is to bring (I’m trying to choose my words carefully here ) reconcilliation of the people back to God and to spread the Gospel and to lead people to Christ in whom there is salvation I certainly at this point trust its authority more than any other Protestant Church that I ever attended. JMHO

 

[NonDenom]

jabelltulsa;2627446]
Those who have received the Sacrament of Holy Orders are my teachers.

When did the Apostles received the Sacrament of Holy Orders?

 

[mercygate]

When did the Apostles received the Sacrament of Holy Orders?

Catholics and the Orthodox believe that the Apostles received Holy Orders at the Last Supper. Catholics make a big deal out of Holy Thursday and all Priests present concelebrate at that Mass, the only Mass of the day. One of them (usually the Pastor or the Bishop if he is present and physically able) washes the feet of the faithful . . . They received the authority to forgive sins on Easter night, when Christ breathed on them and gave them that gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[unacanta]

Well, this is preciselly the reason why I didn’t choose option 2. It was obvious why it’s there and how you interpret it. However that is not how we see it nor how it is. We are very real because we don’t believe that trust in Jesus and trust in the Church is matually exlusive. They are not. One of the purposes of the Church is to spread to Gospel and to teach us to trust Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savour and follow his all commandments. The Holy Mother Church holds the fullness of truth and if I trust in Her all the other things must follow. In fact, the very fact that you follow the Bible you place your trust in Her (even thought you might not even be aware of it).

I am somewhat confused in the capitalization of the word “Her”,. Most generally or at least in the tradition of the King James bible, a capitalized pronoun references God?

Len

 

[mozart-250]

The only way you could understand “trusting in the Church” as a ‘formula’ for getting into heaven would by understanding that the Church is Christ’s privileged means to lead His people to Himself. If we trust the Church and follow her guidance, it is the same thing as following Christ because the Church is His Body and Bride.

But we can be pretty sure that the pollster meant “follow a bunch of rules and regulations” when he said “following the Church.” And that would certainly not be Church teaching.

But trusting in the Church is not the same as trusting in Christ. The church and Christ are two separate entities.

The reason why this is important (at least in my simple brain) is that it is possible that (no matter what denomination one belongs to…including mine) that one can go to church faithfully without trusting Christ. At least I know people that claim they were like that. They assumed that by going to church and being good people, they would gain eternal life (presumably God grades on the curve or something like that). These are folks that to me would be “Trusting in the church” as opposed to “Trusting in Christ”.

Hey I’m not Catholic, but even if I were a good Catholic I would never put “Trust in the Church”. My reasoning (as a good Catholic) would be that I trust in Christ and trust in what He said in Matthew 16. By trusting in Christ and trusting in His words, I could then (as a good Catholic) trust the Church. In other words, my trust in the Church has a foundation of trust in Christ, not vice-versa.

If I were a good Catholic, my answer would be dependent upon my mood-du-jour. If I were in a magnaminous mood, I would answer the “expected” answer and quibble about the Baptist Christianese and the one time “fire insurance” implications later. If I were in a snarky mood of course I would go for “Other”.

Oh BTW…the “Trail of Blood” is nonsense which reputable Baptists do not accept.

 

[mercygate]

But trusting in the Church is not the same as trusting in Christ. The church and Christ are two separate entities.

How can the Body of Christ be separate from Christ? She is not. The Church IS the Body of Christ, and even Protestants would say that, although they would understand the word “church” to be something quite different from what Catholics understand her to be.

The reason why this is important (at least in my simple brain) is that it is possible that (no matter what denomination one belongs to…including mine) that one can go to church faithfully without trusting Christ.

Ah ha. Agreed. Point of note: The Catholic Church (and the Orthodox Churches) are not “denominations.” They are true particular Churches in the Apostolic Succession. Denominations are break-offs and, in our view, they are all defective in some way. I do not deny the graces or the Saints of Jesus among my Protestant neighbors, but from the Catholic view, their teaching and practice are defective.

At least I know people that claim they were like that. They assumed that by going to church and being good people, they would gain eternal life (presumably God grades on the curve or something like that). These are folks that to me would be “Trusting in the church” as opposed to “Trusting in Christ”.

Right. Catholics agree with you. You have to trust in Christ. But there is no opposition between Christ and His Church. To us, the Church, which was HIS idea, cannot defect from Christ *in teaching faith and morals. *The Bride and the Bridegroom are one flesh.

Hey I’m not Catholic, but even if I were a good Catholic I would never put “Trust in the Church”. My reasoning (as a good Catholic) would be that I trust in Christ and trust in what He said in Matthew 16. By trusting in Christ and trusting in His words, I could then (as a good Catholic) trust the Church. In other words, my trust in the Church has a foundation of trust in Christ, not vice-versa.

We would say there *IS *no “vice versa.” If you trust Christ – Especially Matthew 16! – you trust the Church. Your relationship with the particulars of the Church – the people, the teaching, the structures – will have a different expression from your personal relationship with Christ but they will not be separate.

If I were a good Catholic, my answer would be dependent upon my mood-du-jour.

No, it wouldn’t. If your were a good Catholic, your answer would be the same yesterday, today, and forever! Jesus Christ is Lord!

If I were in a magnaminous mood, I would answer the “expected” answer and quibble about the Baptist Christianese and the one time “fire insurance” implications later. If I were in a snarky mood of course I would go for “Other”.

Oh BTW…the “Trail of Blood” is nonsense which reputable Baptists do not accept.

Yeah. Serious Baptists cringe when people mention that.

 

[heisenburg]

Mozart…

Part of this issue boils down to what we mean. As mentioned, when you say Church, you are more than likely saying what ever church you go to on a daily basis.

To properly understand what we mean by this, Church has to be looked at as something different.

Church is not a building that has rules and regulations around it. We believe that the Church was founded by Christ (as you already know I am sure) but its more than that, We believe that because God founded a church, the Church he founded cannot error. It is impossible. Not because it is run by men, but ultimately because it is run by God. God ensures that the men who have the reins will somehow always ensure they will NEVER teach error publicly to the whole church.

To a Catholic, the two are inseparable. If you follow the Church Christ Founded, you are following Christ. If you Follow Christ, you follow the Church he founded.

It is Impossible to follow the Church and NOT follow Christ. It is also impossible toe Follow Christ and NOT follow the Church.

It does not deal with political views of what a church should or should not be. It doesn’t deal with what a congregation thinks should be taught, or even what the elders think should be taught. TO a Catholic, though there is a human Chief Pastor, the Pope, the true head is Christ, and Part of this church is that Christ will NEVER let the Pope teach anything false with respect to faith and morals in a public fashion to the whole church.

So yes, if you follow the Church completely, You follow Christ.
If you follow Christ Completely, you follow the Church.

In Christ