How to get to heaven

[Philthy]

MD:

You totally misinterpret. Paul nowhere states that any sins “jeopardize” the saved from entering the kingdom of God.

Thats exactly what he says. Here, I’ll repost my comments that you claim I misinterpreted and, instead of running off to other verses, lets directly address the ones that you claim I misinterpreted.
Philthy post 46:

I find it interesting that after introducing the verses regarding salvation that speak of not coming under judgment (John 5:24), that you should in short order quote the letter to the Galatians. This letter was specifically written to “believers” who were stumbling in their walk and in so doing were, in Paul’s estimation, placing their salvation into jeopardy. No doubt you disagree, and you will likely first claim that the Galatians Paul is writing to were not actually believers. Can that position really be maintained? I will simply present what Paul says in his letter regarding their salvific status:
3:2Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
Conclusion: Pauls rhetorical way of saying that they had received the Spirit by hearing with faith: aka they were "saved(received the Spirit) believers (heard with faith)
3:27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Conclusion: they had “put on Christ” - they had received Him into themselves, they were joined to him, united with him. They are members of the body of Christ.
So they were saved believers, justified by faith and, therefore (according to your “will not be judged” verses) exempt from judgement. And yet, as you point out, they were “deceived and were seeking the principle of law rather than GRACE:” And what does Paul say to these folks??
5:1For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
Conclusions: they had been “set free” from sin by grace through faith, and had abandoned attempts to be justified by the law (do not submit AGAIN) and were being misled into resubmitting to the law.
5:2-5Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; **you have fallen away from grace. **
Conclusions:
Paul is still speaking to those who were “set free” by Christ and he says that if they accept circumcision, then Christ will be no advantage to them (ie, they will not be saved since salvation is impossible apart from Christ).
They were members of Christ’s body, otherwise they could not be “severed from Christ”. To be severed from Christ means you had to have been joined to Christ at some point. This point is further confirmed in Pauls statement that they had “fallen away from grace” Fallen in biblical contexts always refers to a movement from a state of grace to one apart from grace. Adam and Eve “fell”, for example, when they sinned.

So, what are we left with? We are left with the reality that saved believers can “fall from grace”, be severed from Christ and lose all the benefit of Christ. Some of those benefits that can be lost are: not coming “under condemnation”, not being judged, and passing from death to life. This reality is directly at odds with several of your theological positions presented on this thread.

That “outcome” is not future but immediate (read Jn. 5;24; Jn. 5:10-13).The dichotomy is in your own head. The unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God, and Paul lists some of them in 1 Cor. 6:9-10.

Oh, but MD, this claim directly contradicts the message of the Gospel that you keep throwing at us. Salvation, according to you, has nothing to do with sins it has to do with grace and belief. For by Grace through faith we are saved, right? Not by works and not by living a good life and not by avoiding sin. If Paul’s message were merely that going to Heaven is by grace through faith alone, he would never distinguish the “believer” from the unbeliever by looking at their sins, since those sins dont separate them from Christ according to your theology. What separates them is unbelief. Your intended point makes absolutely no sense, unless Pauls goal was to thoroughly confuse them.

But of the saved by grace through faith he writes:1 Cor 6:11 “Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified (how?) in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.”

Yeah, so what? The fact that SOME of them were those things and that they were cleansed of that filth does not at all mean that they are not becoming those things AGAIN. Thats the whole point of his letter! Dont do those things or you sacrifice the washing, sanctification and justification that was accomplished during their conversion to Christianity. That is the whole point: these sins forfeit the inheritance of the kingdom of God.

 

[KC91]

Be a practising Catholic, don’t be in a state of mortal sin when you die and receive the Last Rites.

 

[bona_fides_1]

The O.T. is full of prophecy concerning the earthly kingdom for Israel. Israel is promised a land, a kingdom and a king on earth. Our LORD Jesus Christ spent His last 40 days on earth opening these Scriptures to the eleven so that they understood this kingdom would be on earth. They asked the logical question: “Will thou, AT THIS TIME, restore AGAIN the kingdom to Israel?” Acts 1:6. The one thing our LORD did not cover was the time element. In Acts 3:19-21 Peter, addressing Israel, offers the return of the LORD Jesus Christ contingent upon Israel’s repentance. Notice that all of this was foretold by the prophets [vs 21]. BTW, Peter and the 12 will sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel in this earthly kingdom. Matthew 19:28. At that time they will fulfill John 20:23. Did you not know this?

ALL of OT prophecy and scripture is directed toward the NT and much of it is foreshadowing topology and metaphor for what is to be in Christ’s Kingdom. The entire story of rescue from Egypt bondage is simple metaphor for God rescuing His people from sin and delivering them from bondage. The journey through the parting seas is baptism. The wandering in the desert for 40 years is an imagery of 40 weeks of gestation in the womb necessary for God to create a new child. The manna in the dessert is a metaphor for the living word of God that would come down to earth like rain on God’s field as Jesus Son of God. That same living bread of God becomes literal Eucharist - the divine body, blood, sould and divinity that is offered up to God as the new pascal lamb offering (the unblemished lamb - no broken bones, no sin etc.) The promised land is heaven. The imagery is so crystal clear that every Jewish child should convert to Catholicism. God told us for over a 1,000 years what he was going to do - right down to the sacrifice of Issiah of Abraham’s only free son which portends of what God will do with His only son.

The new earthly kingdom is the Kingdom of Christ - it is His Church - the Catholic Church. We are being perfected and when the end of days comes the new Kingdom will be completed and Christ will simply proclaim by divine judgement “it is finished”. The elect are revealed and the damned are sent to hell. This old creation will be incinerated and God will make a new Creation and Christ turns over His kingdom to God and then we have one single Kingdom of God on heaven and earth but all humans will be perfected in Christ and in glorified and transfigured bodies that can no longer suffer or be corrupted. We will be as the angels but having both a physical and spiritual nature - a divine-human nature in the image of Christ.

You need to remember that the Catholic church was started from a remnant of Jews who put it all together and understood. All of our church fathers are Jewish. More will be added at the end when God removes their veil - but first the Gentiles must be completed in measure (the last shall be first and the first last). For the great majority of all human souls, the “return of the Lord” is at the time of their natural death. People need only be concerned with staying in grace and not worry about when “that day” is. Fixation on “end times” and tribulation and the myth of a “secret rapture” are all signs that one is not in a confident and good grace since this is a time we should be looking forward to since our delivery is then at hand.

BF

 

[moondweller]

ALL of OT prophecy and scripture is directed toward the NT and much of it is foreshadowing topology and metaphor for what is to be in Christ’s Kingdom.

What you say is correct, but Christ’s Kingdom is future and earthly. Those prophecies tell of a literal, earthly, political Kingdom when the Son of David has ascended His rightful throne.

The entire story of rescue from Egypt bondage is simple metaphor for God rescuing His people from sin and delivering them from bondage. The journey through the parting seas is baptism. The wandering in the desert for 40 years is an imagery of 40 weeks of gestation in the womb necessary for God to create a new child. The manna in the dessert is a metaphor for the living word of God that would come down to earth like rain on God’s field as Jesus Son of God. That same living bread of God becomes literal Eucharist - the divine body, blood, sould and divinity that is offered up to God as the new pascal lamb offering (the unblemished lamb - no broken bones, no sin etc.) **The promised land is heaven. **The imagery is so crystal clear that every Jewish child should convert to Catholicism. God told us for over a 1,000 years what he was going to do - right down to the sacrifice of Issiah of Abraham’s only free son which portends of what God will do with His only son.

All you’ve done here is *spiritualize/allegorize * the prophetic Scriptures. Certainly there are spiritual realities in the faith (all the aspects of salvation by grace through faith have spiritual realities), but the O.T. prophecies regarding the Messianic Kingdom should be interpreted in their literal sense (still recognizing allegories, metaphors and figure of speech, of course), which would call for a literal, earthly Kingdom over which Jesus Christ, the Son of David, will set up and rule in Jerusalem at His second advent.

Heaven is not the Kingdom described by the ancient Hebrew prophets. Their descriptions of the Kingdom are not at all heavenly, but truly earthly in every respect. As their prophecies regarding the first coming of Messiah, which spoke of His birth, sacrificial death and subsequent bodily resurrection, were understood in their literal sense, so their prophecies concerning the the future Messianic, Davidic Kingdom are also to be interpreted and understood in their literal sense. You don’t change horses in the middle of the stream. If the Kingdom were not literal, political and earthly, there would be no real reason for Christ to have to return to this earth.

The new earthly kingdom is the Kingdom of Christ - it is His Church - the Catholic Church.

Not if you allow those prophecies to speak for themselves. They say nothing of the sort. You must allow them to remain the product of Divine Revelation, not a product of man’s imagination.

We are being perfected and when the end of days comes the new Kingdom will be completed and Christ will simply proclaim by divine judgement “it is finished”.

Christ already proclaimed “it is finished” on the cross. This was in respect to His work of redemption, reconciliation and propitiation. Christ, resurrected, functioning as the believer’s High Priest in Heaven, is now building His church, made up of ALL who have believed the good news (gospel) message of His “finished” work on the cross 2000 years ago. But His Kingdom will not begin until His second advent to this earth, and it will endure for a thousand years.

People need only be concerned with staying in grace

People need to be concerned about being “saved by grace.” They need to turn from their unbelief to personal belief in the Person and “finished” work of Jesus Christ on their behalf.

and not worry about when “that day” is. Fixation on “end times” and tribulation and the myth of a “secret rapture” are all signs that one is not in a confident and good grace since this is a time we should be looking forward to since our delivery is then at hand.

The rapture of Christ’s church is certainly no myth. It is Divine Revelation. It is the blessed hope of us who have believed and we are commanded to comfort one another with the words of it:1 Thess 4:13-18 “But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of {the} archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.” Therefore comfort one another with these words" (cf. Jn. 14:3; 1 Cor. 15:51)

 

[QuickCat]

I suppose when the rich jew asked Christ, “What must I do to inherit eternal life?” he was asking about the earthly kingdom? Of course there was an expectation of an earthly kingdom among the Jews, but that is not the entirety of their hope. Did you not know this?

Our LORD Jesus Christ was speaking to a Jew who was still under the law. This was BEFORE our LORD had paid the penalty for sin. Did you not know that our LORD Jesus Christ, in His first advent, came only to the “lost sheep of the house of Israel [Matthew 15:24]?” Paul writes in Romans 15:8 that “…Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers.” The LORD’s entire ministry was to the Jews. The Jews, at that time were still in convenant relation with God and still under the law. Now I know that he blessed several non-Jews [the Samaritan woman, the centurion, and the woman whose daughter was ill], but He also told that woman in Matthew 15:21-28 that, “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel…” Contrast what our LORD said to the rich young ruler with what He had Paul write in Ephesians 2:14-18 and Colossians 2:13-17.

 

[ryanoneil]

Romans 11:6 (New International Version)

And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

King James Bible
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

-see if we will mix Grace and work, its not grace anymore.

What is the use of good works?
in eph 2:10, it is clarified in the bible
For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

-“in Christ Jesus”. Therefore those who say are a follower of Jesus, believes Jesus, God is expecting good works from them. Same as a sheep, you would expect a wool. You would expect a dog to bark. The same with being a true believer in Christ, it is the nature of a Christian to do good works, not the opposite.

Read verse 10 again. The good works of verse 10 clearly come from grace because they were prepaired in advance and they are attributed to God. Paul is refering to different works in verses 8-9.

 

[Philthy]

Our LORD Jesus Christ was speaking to a Jew who was still under the law. This was BEFORE our LORD had paid the penalty for sin. Did you not know that our LORD Jesus Christ, in His first advent, came only to the “lost sheep of the house of Israel [Matthew 15:24]?” Paul writes in Romans 15:8 that “…Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers.” The LORD’s entire ministry was to the Jews. The Jews, at that time were still in convenant relation with God and still under the law. Now I know that he blessed several non-Jews [the Samaritan woman, the centurion, and the woman whose daughter was ill], but He also told that woman in Matthew 15:21-28 that, “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel…” Contrast what our LORD said to the rich young ruler with what He had Paul write in Ephesians 2:14-18 and Colossians 2:13-17.

You appear to be having trouble keeping up. The issue was not whether Christ came for the Jews(which is the point you labored to make in vain), but whether the Jews had hope of eternal life and not merely an “earthly kingdom” as you had suggested earlier.

 

[bona_fides_1]

What I said was no lie. But I agree with you that belief in Christ, which results in God forgiving ALL the believer’s sins, because of ALL of them were imputed to Christ on the cross (2 Cor. 5:21; 1 Pet. 2:24), does not give the believer a “license” to sin, any more than you catholics confessing your sins to a priest to be absolved gives you the liberty to sin and confess, sin and confess, sin and confess. “Sin tonight for tomorrow I confess.”

It is no lie if you do not know better but its a lie with respect to objective truth and so we can subscribe it more to Satanic deception and error. You are teaching a new gospel never before preached till the 16th century.

ALL sin was NOT imputed to Christ on the Cross. If that were true everyone would go to heaven. What really happened on the cross is that Jesus won divine merit to satisfy the debt of Divine Justice for every human soul’s sins ever committed for all time. But this is NOT the same thing as universal salvation nor is it the same thing as meaning that all Christian’s sins past, present and future are forgiven automatically by just “believing” they are forgiven. There would be reason for Jesus to tell the woman caught in adultury who did not believe in Jesus (as far as we know) to say “avoid this sin” if that were the case. And there would be no reason for Paul to reject the absurd notion that some early heretics taught that one can demonstrate their faith by sinning (a obnoxious thing actualy taught by Luther through hyperbola that no doubt many took literally). There would be no reason for Christ to grant the authority of the apostles and their successors to have apostolic forgivness if what you say is the truth. Nor would there be any reason to teach the gospel “by the forgiveness of sins” if there was no need to be forgiven of sins. Nor would there be a reason to teach Christians to profess their sins and forgive one another.

One must allocate the grace of the cross to themselves initially through baptism then AGAIN for each and every grave post-baptismal sin committed after one becomes a believer. The only sure way we know to do that is through the gifts Christ gave us - apostolic absolution (or last rites) after repenting each and every time.

More here: Once Saved, Always Saved?

The rest of your discourse is just twisting scripture to the same distorted wrong idea of Once Saved Always Saved that Catholics here have been trying to correct you on for a very long time but you have closed your mind to the truth.

BF

 

[ryanoneil]

No, Ryan, those works are NOT considered “grace.” THEY’RE WORKS done by those who “have been saved by grace (unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor) through faith” (vss 8-9). Eaglesworth is right. like water and oil, grace and works do not mix:Rom 11:6 "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."Works receive a reward (payment) that is due accordingly. And the believer (having been saved by grace through faith) will stand before the judgment seat of Christ and receive reward (or not) for the works he’s done in the body (1 Cor. 3:10-15). But his salvation was “gifted” upon faith in Jesus Christ: "…not as a result of works.

THOSE WORKS are a fruit of the Spirit. What you fail to realize is good works are just as much a grace as faith is. They are not the same works you keep highlighting in blue.

"The “law of Christ” is operative during this dispensation of grace, yes. It’s the principle under which those who “have been saved by grace through faith…not as a result of works” are to walk; according to the commandment Christ gave to us

It’s those who have “believed” and “have been saved by grace through faith…not as a result of works” that are to love one another (within the body of Christ). “Bear one another’s burdens,” as Paul exhorted the believers in the region of Galatia, is a way of loving the brethren,“and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.” The law of Christ is for the brethren to love one another, not to get saved by.

If you realize the law of Christ is operative in grace why do you exclude good works?

Make no mistake: God is not mocked, for a person will reap only what he sows, because the one who sows for his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows for the spirit will reap eternal life from the spirit. Let us not grow tired of doing good, for in due time we shall reap our harvest, if we do not give up. (Gal 6:7-9)

And he is referring to the law of Christ (Gal 6:2).

That no man is saved by the works of law - any law - is made very evident in the Scriptures!! Not even the law of Christ:Gal. 3:21-22 “For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law (no definite article, i.e., the principle of law). But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.”

Of course no one is saved by works of the law. Paul uses the Greek “ergon nomou” which refers to the legal and ceremonial works of the Mosaic law. Paul does not include the law of Christ. He makes a clear distinction.

We, who are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles, (yet) who know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. (Gal 2:15-16)

That “promise” is Divine righteousness reckoned and imputed to the believer at the time of faith in Christ (not ritual baptism).Rom 4:4-5 “Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,”

Paul is emphasizing that works must be done in faith, not outside of faith.

According to the Scriptures, there is no salvation on the basis of law - ANY LAW (merit). Men are saved on principle of “grace” alone (unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor) “through faith…a GIFT of God, not as a result of works.”

Please tell me which law Paul is refering to? The law of Christ of the Mosaic law?

For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified. (Rom 2:13)

To most, however, such a principle (pure grace) is repugnant. They hate grace and therefore refuse to believe it. They instead foolishly demand that God save them according to merit.Rom 3:21 “But now apart from law (no definite article, i.e., apart from the principle of law) {the} righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law (definite article) and the Prophets, even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all sinned (in Adam) and (continually) fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;”

Rom 3:27-28 “Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law” (no definite article, i.e., the principle of law).The theological and psychological effort of man to blend grace and merit (works) has been man’s ever feeble attempt, in some way, even by trickery, to escape that total indebtedness he has to God, which pure, unadulterated divine grace exposes and expresses. Grace is never based on merit, nor can it be, not without ceasing to be grace.

So, you’ve referenced works of the law again. No one is arguing against that. Are you going to tell me that the law of faith doesn’t fall under grace either?

 

[moondweller]

Its unclear from Eph 2:8-9 that faith is not also the gift of God, as are grace and salvation.It’s not unclear at all. It doesn’t say the gifts of God, but “the GIFT (singular) of God,” referencing the aforementioned salvation. And quite explicitly Paul states that that salvation is “not as a result of works.” He expresses the same phrase in vs. 5 where he goes on to state just how eternally secure the believer’s salvation by grace is and the Divine reason for it:Eph 2:7 "…so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus."That salvation is gifted by God’s grace at the time of one’s faith in Christ is sooo explictly clear in those passages that only because of unbelief can one volitionally reject the lucidity of Paul’s teaching. It’s not that Paul is unclear but you simply reject it. And I do understand why.

So essence of the question remains MD: Is coming to faith in Christ something we actively participate in or is it something God does independent of our efforts? If it is not a gift, who is responsible for the faith that you have?

 

[moondweller]

Philthy:

Oh, but MD, this claim directly contradicts the message of the Gospel that you keep throwing at us. Salvation, according to you, has nothing to do with sins it has to do with grace and belief. For by Grace through faith we are saved, right? Not by works and not by living a good life and not by avoiding sin. If Paul’s message were merely that going to Heaven is by grace through faith alone, he would never distinguish the “believer” from the unbeliever by looking at their sins, since those sins dont separate them from Christ according to your theology. What separates them is unbelief. Your intended point makes absolutely no sense, unless Pauls goal was to thoroughly confuse them.

It is true, according to God’s Word, that no one is saved by works, no one is saved by living a good life or avoiding sins. One is saved by grace (God’s), through faith (in Jesus Christ). Upon faith in Christ the believer is gifted God’s righteousness (Rom. 3:24; 2 Cor. 5:21). The only righteousness God accepts (Phil. 3:9). Your reasoning is carnal, not spiritual.

What separates the believer from an unbeliever is not their sinlessness or piety, but their eternal identity (sheep vs. non-sheep). You’re under the erroneous teaching that it’s at the “final judgment” that your eternal destiny will be determined, where merit (works) will be a factor in that determination. But that is patently false. Divine judgments do not at all determine one’s eternal destiny - one’s identity does (such as “sheep” vs. “goats”, the “dead” vs. the “living”).2 Tim 2:19 “Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, "Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness.”

John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;"Those who truly believe in Christ are eternally identified as His “sheep.” He knows them, they hear His voice and follow Him. And for this reason He said:John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."One’s eternal identity is determined here on earth through faith in Christ. There will be none of Christ’s at the “final judgment.” That judgment is reserved for “the dead” who had not “passed out of death into life” by believing in Christ in this present life.

Yeah, so what? The fact that SOME of them were those things and that they were cleansed of that filth does not at all mean that they are not becoming those things AGAIN."

You have no idea what salvation is, much less regeneration and a new identity. Salvation IS having been “washed,” “sanctified” and “justified.” Such are Christ’s sheep. It’s God who does these things, not us. Ours is to BELIEVE, and upon belief HE SAVES (washes, sanctifies, justifies).

 

[mpjw2]

Hi all

I want to let you know i was brought up from infancy in the catholic church

I thank God for my parents who exposed me to God and the church

As I matured and gained a better understanding of the church and christianity, I was exposed to non catholic churches where christians also attend.

my first I will never forget was a baptist church where I attended a funeral for a friend of mine.

To my amazement, baptists funeral services are nothing like catholic funeral mass

in a catholic church family and friends follow behind the coffin and there is the usual sadness of loss written on all faces,

When I attended my friend funeral, yes there were tears when people first came and in the first part of service.

but by service end their was uplifting music, joyful singing, hands were lifted high praising our Lord Jesus.

at the time it felt strange to be in this environment.

today it feels strrange not to be in that type of environment.

in talking to the family after the service, there was an abundance of joy and reflection but most of all the assurity that they will meet with their loved one again in heaven.

at the time I did not quite understand, I do now.

My christian brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ…

I firmly believe that … whether you are catholic or not catholic, had prior exposure to the catholic church or never set foot in a catholic church … Salvation is for all mankind, no exceptions.

According to the bible, God makes it clear that salvaton is a personal choice
and all can go to heaven should they choose too.

Here is how…

If you are like me, hasn’t everyone sinned at one time or another? Broken at least one of the 10 commandments? i.e. (telling a lie, stealing something, lusting over another person or cursed against God)?

from the above example I am a lying adulterer thief who takes the Lord’s name in vain.

I do not believe there is a perfect sinless human living today or will ever be.
There was only one perfect person…His name Jesus Christ.

I believe all christians …catholic, baptists, protestant, lutheran, pentecostal, presbyterian etc… all believe the following facts regarding God, Jesus Christ, sin and salvation.

The fact that we all belong to an imperfect sinful world population… is bad news because the bible states, we are all doomed to hell … we must be punished for our sin.

We can not enter heaven with sin …agree?

The good news is…God, because He loves you and I, provided the ONE AND ONLY WAY for us to be with Him in heaven …

2000 years ago God made Himself human and walked the earth in the name of Jesus Christ.
Jesus spent a lot of time teaching and healing which caused a lot of people to believe in
him.

However, there were many who did not believe who Jesus claimed to be (the Messiah, the Son of God) and saw Him as a threat because they were not willing to accept the truth about who Jesus said He was. Thereby, they shouted out for Jesus to be crucified and for Pontius Pilate to release a criminal.

agree?

Before being crucified, Jesus was beaten, tortured and flogged.
In Jesus’s death on the cross He, being a sinless man, took upon Himself all the sins you and I ever committed or will commit.

agree?

So instead of us having to pay the punishment (hell) for our sin,
Jesus took our place and died for us so we would not have to be punished forever.

agree?

…the bible comfirms this…

**For God so loved **the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Belief is the first step, however just believing God does not forgive your sin.
the bible also says you must confess your sin.

agree?

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

also…you will need to repent
agree?

But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.” Matthew 9:13

The one and only way to be forgiven of our sins is by the blood and sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross.

agree?

Jesus said … “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father
except through Me John 14:6

In summary…If we want to go to heaven and be forgiven of all your sin, there is only ONE way…

Ist … Admit that we are sinners
2nd… Believe, Trust in the promise of God and in the sacrifice of the blood of Jesus Christ
3rd… Confess and repent our sin with sincerity from the bottom of our hearts
4th… Trust Jesus, who now reigns in heaven, to be Lord and saviour of our lives
5th … be in continuing prayer and confession to God, unfortunately we are not perfect and will always stumble (sin) until the day we die on earth

Agree?

Thank God for His loving grace that He is willing to give us 2nd, 3rd, 100, 10 x 10,000 and more chances in life so that we do not have to die a 2nd death and spend eternity in hell for our sin.

The following guidelines are not necessary for salvation. However I believe will help our spiritual growth and relationship with God.

we need to…

Get baptized
Spend some time each day praying and worshipping God.
Daily read the Bible
Begin to develop friendships with sincere Christians
Tell other people about your relationship with God.

I pray and hope I will see you all in paradise.

God bless you all

Thank you for your time

mpjw

 

[bona_fides_1]

What you say is correct, but Christ’s Kingdom is future and earthly. Those prophecies tell of a literal, earthly, political Kingdom when the Son of David has ascended His rightful throne.All you’ve done here is spiritualize/allegorize the prophetic Scriptures. Certainly there are spiritual realities in the faith (all the aspects of salvation by grace through faith have spiritual realities), but the O.T. prophecies regarding the Messianic Kingdom should be interpreted in their literal sense (still recognizing allegories, metaphors and figure of speech, of course), which would call for a literal, earthly Kingdom over which Jesus Christ, the Son of David, will set up and rule in Jerusalem at His second advent.

There is no millennial reign You are thinking like an unbelieving Jew; This was the exact pattern of thinking that lead to Jesus being persecuted and turned over for crucifixion. Judas betrayed because he wanted a conquering Messiah and tried to force Jesus to show His hand in that role.

The 2nd coming is just to proclaim the “end” and to judge human history and pronounce the last word then usher in a new Creation. There will be a new physical creation and of that we can not speak with any authority or certainty other than it will be utterly good and devoid of all eveil since its beyond human time and space and wickedness and evil are sent to hell for all eternity.

Heaven is not the Kingdom described by the ancient Hebrew prophets. Their descriptions of the Kingdom are not at all heavenly, but truly earthly in every respect. As their prophecies regarding the first coming of Messiah, which spoke of His birth, sacrificial death and subsequent bodily resurrection, were understood in their literal sense, so their prophecies concerning the the future Messianic, Davidic Kingdom are also to be interpreted and understood in their literal sense. You don’t change horses in the middle of the stream. If the Kingdom were not literal, political and earthly, there would be no real reason for Christ to have to return to this earth.Not if you allow those prophecies to speak for themselves. They say nothing of the sort. You must allow them to remain the product of Divine Revelation, not a product of man’s imagination.Christ already proclaimed “it is finished” on the cross. This was in respect to His work of redemption, reconciliation and propitiation. Christ, resurrected, functioning as the believer’s High Priest in Heaven, is now building His church, made up of ALL who have believed the good news (gospel) message of His “finished” work on the cross 2000 years ago. But His Kingdom will not begin until His second advent to this earth, and it will endure for a thousand years.People need to be concerned about being “saved by grace.” They need to turn from their unbelief to personal belief in the Person and “finished” work of Jesus Christ on their behalf.The rapture of Christ’s church is certainly no myth. It is Divine Revelation. It is the blessed hope of us who have believed and we are commanded to comfort one another with the words of it:1 Thess 4:13-18 “But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of {the} archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.” Therefore comfort one another with these words" (cf. Jn. 14:3; 1 Cor. 15:51)

This is all specious reasoning that is vacated from reason. There is no millennial reign. To have it your way would require the Lord returning 3 times as well as other issues that would make scripture contradict itself. There is no secret rapture - this is myth.

BF

 

[moondweller]

This is all specious reasoning that is vacated from reason. There is no millennial reign. To have it your way would require the Lord returning 3 times as well as other issues that would make scripture contradict itself. There is no secret rapture - this is myth.

BF

Nope, no contradictions. He physically sets foot on this earth at His second advent, but first He meets His church/bride in the air.

How does the believer of this church age get to heaven BODILY? Via the rapture. When the dead in Christ will rise first and we who remain will not experience death but be changed in the twinkling of an eye; and this perishable (body) will put on the imperishable, and this mortal (body) will put on immortality. And in glorified bodies we will return with Him and rule with Him for a thousand years. The O.T. prophets didn’t describe heaven in their prophecies, they described a glorious kingdom right here on this earth when Messiah rules in righteousness from Jerusalem. :extrahappy:

 

[moondweller]

THOSE WORKS are a fruit of the Spirit. What you fail to realize is good works are just as much a grace as faith is. They are not the same works you keep highlighting in blue.

If you realize the law of Christ is operative in grace why do you exclude good works?

Make no mistake: God is not mocked, for a person will reap only what he sows, because the one who sows for his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows for the spirit will reap eternal life from the spirit. Let us not grow tired of doing good, for in due time we shall reap our harvest, if we do not give up. (Gal 6:7-9)

And he is referring to the law of Christ (Gal 6:2).

Of course no one is saved by works of the law. Paul uses the Greek “ergon nomou” which refers to the legal and ceremonial works of the Mosaic law. Paul does not include the law of Christ. He makes a clear distinction.

We, who are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles, (yet) who know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. (Gal 2:15-16)

Paul is emphasizing that works must be done in faith, not outside of faith.

Please tell me which law Paul is refering to? The law of Christ of the Mosaic law?

For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified. (Rom 2:13)

So, you’ve referenced works of the law again. No one is arguing against that. Are you going to tell me that the law of faith doesn’t fall under grace either?

You need to RE-READ my post, Ryan. I pointed out that in the Greek Paul most often uses “law” without the definite article, meaning “the principle of law” (works/merit), not the Law of Moses. Only when he uses the definite article is he referring to the Law of Moses, which INCLUDES the Decalogue, which he calls a ministry of death and condemnation in 1 Cor. 3.

No law, whether the Law of Moses (with its condemning Decalogue), or the law of Christ, or the law of liberty, or the law of faith has the power to save anyone. Men are not saved by the principle of law, PERIOD.Gal 3:18 "For if the inheritance is based on law (the principle of law), it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise."

Gal 3:21 “…For if a law (not THE Law) had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law” (the principle of law).The Law of Moses (with its 10 Commandments) was to lead men to Christ that they might be "justified by faith:"Gal 3:24 "Therefore the Law has become our tutor {to lead us} to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor."The SAVED are under the law of Christ (His commandment for the brethren to love one another), and they (the saved) operate under the law of liberty. But neither of these “laws” SAVED them. The SAVED operate here on earth under them. Men are saved by grace (God’s) through faith. And the saved walk/live by faith.Rom 3:27-28 “Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law” (no definite article, meaning a man is justified apart from the principle of law).

 

[QuickCat]

ALL of OT prophecy and scripture is directed toward the NT and much of it is foreshadowing topology and metaphor for what is to be in Christ’s Kingdom. The entire story of rescue from Egypt bondage is simple metaphor for God rescuing His people from sin and delivering them from bondage. The journey through the parting seas is baptism. The wandering in the desert for 40 years is an imagery of 40 weeks of gestation in the womb necessary for God to create a new child. The manna in the dessert is a metaphor for the living word of God that would come down to earth like rain on God’s field as Jesus Son of God. That same living bread of God becomes literal Eucharist - the divine body, blood, sould and divinity that is offered up to God as the new pascal lamb offering (the unblemished lamb - no broken bones, no sin etc.) The promised land is heaven. The imagery is so crystal clear that every Jewish child should convert to Catholicism. God told us for over a 1,000 years what he was going to do - right down to the sacrifice of Issiah of Abraham’s only free son which portends of what God will do with His only son.

The new earthly kingdom is the Kingdom of Christ - it is His Church - the Catholic Church. We are being perfected and when the end of days comes the new Kingdom will be completed and Christ will simply proclaim by divine judgement “it is finished”. The elect are revealed and the damned are sent to hell. This old creation will be incinerated and God will make a new Creation and Christ turns over His kingdom to God and then we have one single Kingdom of God on heaven and earth but all humans will be perfected in Christ and in glorified and transfigured bodies that can no longer suffer or be corrupted. We will be as the angels but having both a physical and spiritual nature - a divine-human nature in the image of Christ.

You need to remember that the Catholic church was started from a remnant of Jews who put it all together and understood. All of our church fathers are Jewish. More will be added at the end when God removes their veil - but first the Gentiles must be completed in measure (the last shall be first and the first last). For the great majority of all human souls, the “return of the Lord” is at the time of their natural death. People need only be concerned with staying in grace and not worry about when “that day” is. Fixation on “end times” and tribulation and the myth of a “secret rapture” are all signs that one is not in a confident and good grace since this is a time we should be looking forward to since our delivery is then at hand.

BF

You must turn to massive “spiritualization” of Scripture in order to come up with the scheme you proffer. Paul writes in Ephesians 3 that there is now a Body made up of Jews and Gentiles and that this Body was NOT revealed in ages past. No where in the O.T. is it foretold that Jews and Gentiles would be joint heirs in a joint body with a joint promise - The Body of Christ. Paul is the ONLY Biblical writer to name the church of this dispensation as the Body of Christ. He is the ONLY Biblical writer to reveal that we shall be “caught up” to meet the Lord Jesus Christ in the air, yes, as the rapture of the Body of Christ - 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. He tells us to “comfort one another with these words.”
As far as my assurance, I can say with Paul: I know in whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep me to that day. I am so sorry that you don’t have this assurance. As for the 1,000 years: Six times in the 20th chapter of Revelation is this time frame mentioned. Now I will accept God’s Word on this matter that He will set up a kingdom on this earth as promised to Israel and that He will rule and reign over this kingdom [on earth] for 1,000 years. You can stick to your spiritualization of Scripture. Question: Once you began the spiritualization process where do you stop?

 

[moondweller]

It is no lie if you do not know better but its a lie with respect to objective truth and so we can subscribe it more to Satanic deception and error. You are teaching a new gospel never before preached till the 16th century.

ALL sin was NOT imputed to Christ on the Cross.

“Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!” (Jn. 1:29b).

1 Pet 2:24 “…and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.”

2 Cor 5:21 "He made Him who knew no sin {to be} sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."In 2 Cor 5:21 we see that our sins were imputed to Christ, and upon belief in Him God’s righteousness is imputed to us.

If that were true everyone would go to heaven.

Salvation is “by grace through faith” - but not everyone believes.

One must allocate the grace of the cross to themselves initially through baptism then AGAIN for each and every grave post-baptismal sin committed after one becomes a believer. The only sure way we know to do that is through the gifts Christ gave us - apostolic absolution (or last rites) after repenting each and every time.

I don’t see where the Scriptures teach of “allocated graces” (installments) for the forgiveness of sins and salvation. Only that ALL of our sins are forgiven at the time of personal faith in Jesus Christ (Acts 10:43; 13:38; Col. 1:14) because He bore them ALL on the cross, and there He died TO them (our sins), “once for all.” And now “for His sake” the believers sins are forgiven (1 Jn. 2:12). God is now free, and just, to forgive us ALL our sins at the time of personal belief in Christ. Paul writes:Rom 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."Christ, our Substitute, paid the wages of our sins through His own death after becoming sin (our sins), on our behalf, when God imputed them to Him on the cross. Prefigured by the two goats on the “Day of Atonement” prescribed in the Mosaic Law. Christ is its fulfillment and through the shedding of His blood our sins are forgiven and taken away forever; He being the fulfillment of both the sacrificial goat and the scapegoat, the ultimate Substitute (see Lev. 16:7-10). And now “the free gift of God is eternal life” for all who believe in Him, i.e., belief in what He has DONE - according to the Scriptures.

All I’m doing is sharing with you what our Scriptures communicate to us.

 

[bona_fides_1]

You need to RE-READ my post, Ryan. I pointed out that in the Greek Paul most often uses “law” without the definite article, meaning “the principle of law” (works/merit), not the Law of Moses. Only when he uses the definite article is he referring to the Law of Moses, which INCLUDES the Decalogue, which he calls a ministry of death and condemnation in 1 Cor. 3.

No law, whether the Law of Moses (with its condemning Decalogue), or the law of Christ, or the law of liberty, or the law of faith has the power to save anyone. Men are not saved by the principle of law, PERIOD.Gal 3:18 "For if the inheritance is based on law (the principle of law), it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise."

Gal 3:21 “…For if a law (not THE Law) had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law” (the principle of law).The Law of Moses (with its 10 Commandments) was to lead men to Christ that they might be "justified by faith:"Gal 3:24 "Therefore the Law has become our tutor {to lead us} to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor."The SAVED are under the law of Christ (His commandment for the brethren to love one another), and they (the saved) operate under the law of liberty. But neither of these “laws” SAVED them. The SAVED operate here on earth under them. Men are saved by grace (God’s) through faith. And the saved walk/live by faith.Rom 3:27-28 “Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law” (no definite article, meaning a man is justified apart from the principle of law).

Can you please get past the strawman presumptions? Catholics do not believe the law saves for goodness sakes. So why do you keep harping these silly tag lines of yours? Where are you coming from?

But you are extremely deceived if you think you get a free pass for the law. The Law is more intense now than it ever was. You don’t understand that Jesus was the fulfillment of the law. He added over 200 new commandments. We are under Christian Law and are not in the least exempt from even a passing lustful thought whereas under the old law a man could lust and not break the law unless he acted on that lust. It’s time to toss out all the reformed theory you have digested since its all wrong.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

BF

 

[bona_fides_1]

Nope, no contradictions. He physically sets foot on this earth at His second advent, but first He meets His church/bride in the air.

How does the believer of this church age get to heaven BODILY? Via the rapture. When the dead in Christ will rise first and we who remain will not experience death but be changed in the twinkling of an eye; and this perishable (body) will put on the imperishable, and this mortal (body) will put on immortality. And in glorified bodies we will return with Him and rule with Him for a thousand years. The O.T. prophets didn’t describe heaven in their prophecies, they described a glorious kingdom right here on this earth when Messiah rules in righteousness from Jerusalem. :extrahappy:

Of course Jesus sets foot on earth and of course we are given imperishable bodies. But there is NO millennial reign and there is no pre-tribulation secret rapture. The rapture or “catching up” is simply the elect being given the honor to meet Jesus in the air in His triumphant procession to earth to claim his victory. Victory comes by divine judgement. He separates the wicked and proclaims His final word, sends the wicked to hell and then all of Creation is destroyed and remade. End of story, end of age and end of human history. What happens in the new age is an eternity of celebration and glory and wonderful things to good too even contemplate. The 1000 year reign in metaphorical for an endless period of time.

BF

 

[Mr_Sun]

I find it sad that one of my best friends who happens to be atheist will go to hell.
Shes such a beautiful person too, inside and outside.
I guess its just the way things are…