How To Get To Heaven

[Church_Militant]

That’s not the way I see it. I see the catholics keeping a very select few of the pieces 5% that they like best and then throwing away the other 95% of the pieces that don’t fit the puzzle the way they like.

Based upon the debate so far, I’d say that that is this allegation would better fit those who have taught you the things that you have preached to us so far.

You cannot make up a doctrine (in this case…of salvation) based on the man made interpretations of a few verses of scripture and then accuse Catholics of doing so when I have already shown you that Catholic soteriology is based upon the entire context of the New Testament as well as the historically verifiable documents of the early church and not some errant teachings of men that came into being a mere 500 years ago (or much much less.)

I’m sorry xFBx but so far you have failed to make a good scriptural case for the things that you say you believe. Just because you think the Bible teaches those things does not make it true. The important thing is to read the whole Word of God and to look to see what the early church, the men who were discipled by the apostles themselves, wrote and passed on as to what they learned. If what you currently believe does not align with their teachings concerning the Gospel then it is not the early church fathers that are wrong.

 

[Milliardo]

**

Jesus Christ is the boss, NOT the church. What He says, goes. The word of God supercedes anything a church, person, or an angel of heaven says.

**Yet isn’t this the very same power Christ gave to the Apostles, and the Apostles in turn gave to their successors? Read Matthew 16 on this; whatever Peter and the Apostles say, goes, as this was given to them by Christ.

Many have said the prayer to God from their hearts, nearly 50% of them.

Yet how sincerely do they say those prayers?

My goal is to preach the gospel, which many catholics can’t seem to separate from their church.

I have yet to see an Evangelical church separate the Gospel from their church as well…

The gospel has NOTHING to do with a church, baptism, good deeds, or ritual.

You keep repeating this, frodo, yet offer little in the way of actual logic. It’s as if you’ve run out of arguments, and just repeat the same tired refrain.

It is about accepting into your heart and turning to Jesus Christ and what He did already on the cross to pay for your sins.

Yet, as pointed out again, an acceptance of Christ should mean the willingness to follow Him, not merely make intellectual assent.

**

If we could be good enough on our own to get to heaven, then Christ Jesus died in vain.

**Ah, where is it taught in the Catholic Church that one can be good on his own? The Church believes that this goodness that we do is because of Christ, not inspite of Him.
**

Works of righteousness DO NOT save, they are merely a product OF salvation:

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

**Repeated, tired passage: the point of Titus is that God’s mercy compelled Him to save us. Nothing that we did–not by our deeds, nor by our faith–was God compelled to save us, but because of His love for us. This passage does not explain the inner workings of salvation, but merely shows us that God, in His love, was moved to save us.
**

Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

**Again, we are to repeat: works of the Law. Compare this with Romans 2:5-8, as well as Romans 13:10. It should be repeated, yet again, that Paul could not possibly contradict himself from Romans 2 and Romans 3.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

It’t not just works of the law, we are not saved by any works whatsoever. It’s by grace through faith alone.

Not by works of righteousness (the law isn’t meantioned here):

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Not by works of the law:
You like romans 3 better? Here you go?

Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Not by any works at all (the law isn’t meantioned here):

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Therefore we can conclude that again you are wrong in your false doctrine. It is not by works of righteousness, works of the law, or works in general that we are saved. It is by faith in Jesus Christ alone and His sacrifice for yours and my sins that saves us. Just as the sacrifices in the old testiment covered their sins, Jesus Christ was the ultimate sacrifice for our sins.

Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

He put away sins by His sacrifice, not by our good deeds, not by going to a church, not by our merits but by HIS.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

It’t not just works of the law, we are not saved by any works whatsoever. It’s by grace through faith alone.

Would you mind typing for us here, the verse in Scripture that says we’re “saved by faith alone” because I’m not finding it.

Not by works of righteousness (the law isn’t meantioned here):

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Not by works of the law:
You like romans 3 better? Here you go?

Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Where have you heard that Catholics think we need to keep the Jewish OT Laws to be justified? Do you have a source for this false information, because I can’t find it in the Bible or the Catechism. I’d have to conclude that you’re making things up because the Catholic Church does not teach that we’re saved by keeping the OT Law.

Not by any works at all (the law isn’t meantioned here):

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Therefore we can conclude that again you are wrong in your false doctrine.

I think you are wrong about our doctrine. If the Church taught what you say it does then I’d be just as angry about it as you are. Fortunately what you’re concluding about false doctrine isn’t even the same as the True teaching of the Church. Oh, and what does Ephesians 2:10 say?
Here, let me show you: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

It is not by works of righteousness, works of the law, or works in general that we are saved. It is by faith in Jesus Christ alone and His sacrifice for yours and my sins that saves us. Just as the sacrifices in the old testiment covered their sins, Jesus Christ was the ultimate sacrifice for our sins.

Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

He put away sins by His sacrifice, not by our good deeds, not by going to a church, not by our merits but by HIS.

Well it’s a darn good thing the Church doesn’t teach that we are saved by doing good deeds or going to Church or any thing we might try to merit on our own!

Now, where is that “faith in Jesus Christ alone” verse you keep mentioning? I’m not having much luck with BibleGateway. I do a search for “faith alone” and the only verse that comes up is James 2:17 - Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

 

[Gamera]

It’t not just works of the law, we are not saved by any works whatsoever. It’s by grace through faith alone.

“Alone” is your added word. No Scripture verse says we are saved by faith “alone.” You keep adding “alone” and hoping we won’t notice. We do notice.

Not by works of righteousness (the law isn’t meantioned here):

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Right. He didn’t die for us because of our righteousness; He died for us because of His mercy. How is that relevant?

Not by works of the law:
You like romans 3 better? Here you go?

Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Right, no flesh is justified by deeds of the law. We agree. Again, how is that relevant? Catholics don’t think we are justified by works of the law.

Not by any works at all (the law isn’t meantioned here):

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Right. We are saved by grace through faith, not by works. Catholics agree. Again, how is that relevant? Where do you jump from that to your claim of “faith alone?” It doesn’t say “faith alone.” That’s just your spin.

Therefore we can conclude that again you are wrong in your false doctrine. It is not by works of righteousness, works of the law, or works in general that we are saved. It is by faith in Jesus Christ alone and His sacrifice for yours and my sins that saves us.

None of the verses you quote support your “faith alone” claim! When are you going to quote a Scripture to support “faith alone?” Until you do, why should we “conclude that … [Catholics ] are wrong”?

Further, you’ve been told clearly that Catholics do NOT believe in any kind of “salvation by works.”

Just as the sacrifices in the old testiment covered their sins, Jesus Christ was the ultimate sacrifice for our sins.

Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

A-MEN! Catholic faith expressed quite well here.

He put away sins by His sacrifice, not by our good deeds, not by going to a church, not by our merits but by HIS.

Catholics agree. You’ve been told this over and over and over and over and over.

Now – when are you going to quote us a verse that says we are saved by “faith alone?”

 

[Church_Militant]

It’t not just works of the law, we are not saved by any works whatsoever. It’s by grace through faith alone.

Everybody’s already bagged you on this one. You can shout it from the rooftyops if it makes you feel better my friend, but you cannot support that from the Word of God. In fact the Word of God refutes it plainly in Matthew 25:31-46.

Not by works of righteousness (the law isn’t meantioned here):

Tit 3:5 Not by works of the law:
You like romans 3 better? Here you go?

Ro 3:20 not by any works at all (the law isn’t meantioned here):

Eph 2:8 Therefore we can conclude that again you are wrong in your false doctrine. It is not by works of righteousness, works of the law, or works in general that we are saved. It is by faith in Jesus Christ alone and His sacrifice for yours and my sins that saves us. Just as the sacrifices in the old testiment covered their sins, Jesus Christ was the ultimate sacrifice for our sins.

Feel better now that you’ve got that rant out of your system? I don’t think you’ll find a faithful Catholic teaching anywhere that has ever said that we are saved by our works, though I’m pretty sure that you wish there was one so that your whole sermonette would have a leg to stand on, but sadly you won’t find that anywhere in Catholic teaching.

What you will find is that works do play a scripturally important role in our salvation based on the passage (and others like Matthew 5:1-8 & 16, 7:21 must do the will of the Father], 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works.], John 5:29 And they that have done good things, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; but they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.]. There’s a lot more, but these are just some from the mouth of Our Lord Himself.

Your opinion, (or your denomination’s opinion) notwithstanding, the Catholic Church has a far more scriptural teaching on this, and always has.

Heb 9:26 He put away sins by His sacrifice, not by our good deeds, not by going to a church, not by our merits but by HIS

.Too bad that that is precisely what the Catholic Church teaches.

Moreover, your statement is not supported by the verse from Hebrews that you have cited. Here it is again…
26 For then he ought to have suffered often from the beginning of the world: but now once at the end of ages, he hath appeared for the destruction of sin, by the sacrifice of himself.It’s pretty clear that that verse is speaking of sin…not good works. You sort of concoct a whole interpretation out of something that the verse doesn’t even say, and most Christians find that distressing.

 

[KathleenElsie]

What our friend forgets is that the versions of the bible that he tends to use were not complete and were written after the Holy Spirit worked to bring the Catholic Bible into existence. This arguement has been tried by many people many many times. But, I do enjoy reading everyones answers.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

“Alone” is your added word. No Scripture verse says we are saved by faith “alone.” You keep adding “alone” and hoping we won’t notice. We do notice.

**I keep saying faith alone, BECAUSE that’s what the bible says.

Logic?

Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

In this sentence only faith** and the deeds of the law are mentioned. If it’s NOT by the deeds of the law, which is left?

Faith. Do you see anything else written in that verse that saves? No.

Right. He didn’t die for us because of our righteousness; He died for us because of His mercy. How is that relevant?

What He is saying is that we are not saved by our works of righteousness (e.g. baptism, good deeds, going to church, taking communion, ect.) We ARE saved by HIS righteousness, without works. It already obvious that we aren’t righteous, so it would make no sense for God to say that He didn’t die because of our righteousness when He died for our sins.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Right, no flesh is justified by deeds of the law. We agree. Again, how is that relevant? Catholics don’t think we are justified by works of the law.

The point is that we are not justified by any type of works, wheather of the law, righteousness or works in general.

Right. We are saved by grace through faith, not by works. Catholics agree. Again, how is that relevant? Where do you jump from that to your claim of “faith alone?” It doesn’t say “faith alone.” That’s just your spin.

If you have faith and not works, what else could possibly be involved? Baptism is a work of righteousness, good deeds are works of righteousness, going to church is a work of righteousness, communion is a work of righteousness…ect.

Therefore it is by faith alone…

None of the verses you quote support your “faith alone” claim! When are you going to quote a Scripture to support “faith alone?” Until you do, why should we “conclude that … [Catholics ] are wrong”?

**That’s like not seeing the nose on your face. **

Further, you’ve been told clearly that Catholics do NOT believe in any kind of “salvation by works.”

…yet you add works to your salvation, such as baptism, communion, good deeds…you can’t have it both ways.

A-MEN! Catholic faith expressed quite well here.

I don’t need catholic faith. I need faith in Jesus Christ.

Catholics agree. You’ve been told this over and over and over and over and over.

Now – when are you going to quote us a verse that says we are saved by "faith alone?

I have just quoted you three and you couldn’t see it plain as the nose on your face.

 

[guanophore]

I keep saying faith alone, BECAUSE that’s what the bible says.

No, frodo, it does not say that. You have been taught to think and believe that it says that, but this is not the teaching we have received from the Apostles.

Logic?

Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

In this sentence only faith and the deeds of the law are mentioned. If it’s NOT by the deeds of the law, which is left?

This is not logic, it is black and white thinking, all or nothing. It is inappropriate to take this verse, or any verse in the Bible in isolation, without relating the content to other verses. Yes, only two concepts are mentioned here, but it does not rule out what is mentioned elsewhere.

Faith. Do you see anything else written in that verse that saves? No.

True, but in other verses we see other things, like that we are saved by Grace, and we are saved by Baptism, and we are saved by Blood, etc. etc.

What He is saying is that we are not saved by our works of righteousness (e.g. baptism, good deeds, going to church, taking communion, ect.)

You are confusing following the commandments of God with “works of righteousness”. Salvation by grace through faith does not mean we are to disregard the moral teachings of Jesus.

We ARE saved by HIS righteousness, without works.

You are confusing works of the flesh with the Sacred Works of God which were prepared beforehand for us to walk in therm. These works are not to be separated from the salvific grace from which they spring.

It already obvious that we aren’t righteous

No, but by Grace we are to become the righteousness of God in Christ. This happens by cooperating with His grace, bearing fruit, and completing the good works for which we have been saved.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Sacred works are those which spring from grace through faith. News flash! “washing of rejeneration” here refers to baptism, at which time we are renewed by the HS, and receive the grace that enables us to follow God’s commmandments.

The point is that we are not justified by any type of works, wheather of the law, righteousness or works in general.

This is a very myopic view of scripture. We are justified by works, but only those works that proceed from saving faith. Scripture teaches us that we will be justified or condemned based on our actions.

If you have faith and not works, what else could possibly be involved? Baptism is a work of righteousness, good deeds are works of righteousness, going to church is a work of righteousness, communion is a work of righteousness…ect.

You are in error here in your conclusions, frodo. Baptism is a sacrament, a joyful experience of God’s saving grace, and an act of obedience to Jesus, who teaches us that, if we love Him, we will follow His commandments. The same is true of attending Mass, and receiving communion. All these things are commanded to us by Jesus. However, I agree with you that these things, if they do not proceed from faith, are a sin.

Therefore it is by faith alone…

There is only one place in the Bible where it says the words “faith alone” together. Do you know which verse it is?

You have several errors here. One is that salvation is something that occurs at one point in time, which is rarely the case for most people. Another is that doing the things commanded by God are “works of the flesh”. When Jesus did the works of His father, was He doing “works of the flesh”?

I don’t need catholic faith. I need faith in Jesus Christ.

Since the two are one in the same thing, how does it feel to realize that you are Catholic?

[/QUOTE]

 

[EHRAM]

Frodo,

You persist in saying “faith alone” because that’s what the Bible says, but we emphasize that faith must be expressed by word and deed because we believe in the truth of the second chapter of James.

And here’s another few verses to ponder, in the KJV which you seem to prefer:

Matt 10: 22And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Notice that once must perservere, not just say a prayer once and presume that one is going to heaven. (By the way, isn’t saying the prayer a work, too, by your definition?)

And following Jesus’s conversation with the rich young man, to whom he said that one must keep the commandments, and, to be perfect, give up everything, he said to the disciples:

“29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.”

So our love for Jesus must be stronger than our attachment to any thing of the world. And how do we demonstrate that love? By the obedience of faith, e.g. John 14:15 [Jesus said,] “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” and 1 John 5:3 “For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.”

And in the judgment of the nations in Matt 25:31-46, the sheep had expressed their faith in love, but the goats had not. Note that the goats called Jesus “Lord, Lord” too. This is consistent with Matthew 7:21 “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” Simply calling Jesus Lord is not enough. Faith and obedience go together. The demons believe but do not obey (James 2). Surely you do not think they would be saved just because they believe?

And regarding the importance of Holy Communion, how do you explain John 6:22-59, particularly vs. 54 and 57?

And regarding the importance of baptism, how do you explain Mark 16:16?

Please note that we are NOT saying that we are saved by Baptism or Communion. We are saved by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ.

 

[Gamera]

…yet you add works to your salvation, such as baptism, communion, good deeds…you can’t have it both ways.

That’s like saying we shouldn’t read the Bible because then we’re adding to Jesus’ finished work on the cross. Nonsense. Just because something has religious significance doesn’t make it a “work.” Baptism is not a work we perform, it’s a gift we receive. Communion isn’t a work we perform, it’s a gift we receive. Good deeds don’t “earn” anyone a place in heaven, nor are they performed for that purpose, but rather they are acts of obedience.

I keep saying faith alone, BECAUSE that’s what the bible says.

Logic? …

I have just quoted you three and you couldn’t see it plain as the nose on your face.

No verse quoted by you uses the two words “faith alone” in conjunction. Not three verses, not two, not one. Zero. The word “faith” and the word “alone” aren’t used together in any of those verses. You can hide behind insults all you want but you can’t avoid the fact that none of the verses you quoted above use the term “faith alone.” We aren’t blind and we aren’t stupid. We see exactly what Scripture says. Nowhere does Scripture contain the expression “faith alone.” (except James 2:24 which says “So you see a man is justified by works and NOT by faith alone”, which refutes your position).

You think those three quoted verses “really mean” faith alone, but none of them actually SAY “faith alone,” and your personal interpretation of what Scripture “really means” holds little weight with us – especially since you showed your lack of Bible knowledge when you pronounced holy water “unBiblical” even though holy water is mentioned by name in Numbers 5:17.

 

[sodak]

Actually, I consider faith to be a “work”. God saves us through his grace. Those of us who have heard and believe (and obey) have the grace channeled through faith, but plenty of other people don’t have that luxury. Many people haven’t heard of Jesus, many babies die in the womb.

Are they also damned because they didn’t utter “Jesus, I accept you as my Lord and Savior”? The Catholic church does NOT teach that. What does your church teach, Frodo? Or do you conveniently skip those types of issues?

More succinctly, if you don’t believe in purgatory, then everyone who dies either goes to heaven or hell. Small children have never accepted Christ. Do they go to heaven or hell? Most evangelicals choose heaven, but that is a counter example to their core belief which they cannot reconcile - someone is saved without accepting Christ!

God can save whoever he wants. I think that’s part of the job description of being God!

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Frodo,

You persist in saying “faith alone” because that’s what the Bible says, but we emphasize that faith must be expressed by word and deed because we believe in the truth of the second chapter of James.

Now you are talking about the RESULTS of faith, not faith. I have been telling you about faith. The RESULTS of faith are that you have a desire to do God’s will, good deeds, baptism, communion, ect. But they don’t save you. You do them BECAUSE you already ARE saved as I have said many, many, times.

And here’s another few verses to ponder, in the KJV which you seem to prefer:

**Matt 10: 22And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

A true believer WILL endure to the end, not because of himself, but because of the Holy Spirit that dwells within him.**

Notice that once must perservere, not just say a prayer once and presume that one is going to heaven. (By the way, isn’t saying the prayer a work, too, by your definition?)

The prayer is just a way of starting a relationship with Jesus Christ. If said sincerely to God from the heart, the person certainly will be saved. First of all, you don’t HAVE to say the prayer. What you must do is believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross and rose from the dead for your sins. Admit that you are a sinner. Confess Him as your Savior and Lord. The prayer just sums this all up.

Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

And following Jesus’s conversation with the rich young man, to whom he said that one must keep the commandments, and, to be perfect, give up everything, he said to the disciples:

He told him that to prove to him that he wasn’t perfect as he claimed. The man didn’t wasn’t WILLING to give up his lifestyle for the Lord.

“29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.”

No arguement.

So our love for Jesus must be stronger than our attachment to any thing of the world. And how do we demonstrate that love? By the obedience of faith, e.g. John 14:15 [Jesus said,] “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” and 1 John 5:3 “For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.”

No arguement. It’s just that you believe that the works save, I say that you are saved BEFORE you even do the works because of the FAITH.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

And in the judgment of the nations in Matt 25:31-46, the sheep had expressed their faith in love, but the goats had not. Note that the goats called Jesus “Lord, Lord” too. This is consistent with Matthew 7:21 “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” Simply calling Jesus Lord is not enough. Faith and obedience go together. The demons believe but do not obey (James 2). Surely you do not think they would be saved just because they believe?

Simply calling on Jesus isn’t enough. What He means is that it must be GENUINE. There are people who call on Jesus, but don’t really mean it. The obedience doesn’t save, it’s the faith. Faith RESULTS in works, no arguement there,but the FAITH saves.

What it means is that lip service isn’t enough, there must be genuine faith in Him from the heart. That will automatically result in works, but it’s not the works that save.

And regarding the importance of Holy Communion, how do you explain John 6:22-59, particularly vs. 54 and 57?

You forgot verse 63 where He said:

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

He doesn’t mean literally eating Him. It is something Spiritual that happens when we are saved. It’s not about the ritual communion, it’s about salvation that comes when we place our faith in Him alone for salvation.

**And regarding the importance of baptism, how do you explain Mark 16:16?

Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.**

Easy. Let’s look at this passage. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved…

If you believe and are baptize you will be saved, but it’s not the baptism that saved you. It is something that we do AFTER we are already saved.

READ ON…

but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Tell me, who does it say shall be damned here?

Please note that we are NOT saying that we are saved by Baptism or Communion. We are saved by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ.

**You just absolutely contradicted what MANY prominent catholics have said on here. They say that you ARE saved by baptism, good works and communion. Watch. Ask them.

But I do agree with that last statement, which is what I have been screaming all along.**

We are saved by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ.

Totally correct as I have said time and time again, but it is through exercising FAITH in that grace and His merits.

 

[Milliardo]

It’t not just works of the law, we are not saved by any works whatsoever. It’s by grace through faith alone.

We are, of course, still waiting what you read into the passages concerning Judgment; so far, we haven’t heard anything from you about them. It seems you’d rather ignore them than acknowledge them. Not saved by works? As I keep asking, frodo, why would God judge us by our works if we are not saved, or condemned, by the works we do.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

As I have to repeat (perhaps for the nth time), the point of this passage is that God was moved by His love for us, that he saved us because of that love. Going by that then, you don’t see either that God was compelled to save us because of our faith; you cannot see that in the passage, either implicitly or explicitly. To say that this proves sola fide is to force an interpretation that’s not in the passage.

Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Again, works of the law. As I mentioned, if the point of Paul is good works, then he would be contradicting himself, as he said in Romans 2:7–

eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,

So, what does this mean, frodo? If eternal life is for those wo persevere in good works, what can you conclude by this then? Remember, this is in Romans, before chapter 3. Do you think Paul contradicted himself later in chapter 3? But then, as even Evangelicals admit, the Bible does not contradict itself.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Again, you miss the point of Paul here–salvation is not of ourselves, but rather it is a grace given by God through faith. Now, before you begin to say, 'I told you so", look again at the passage in Romans 2–perseverance in good works. Does this tie up with Ephesians 2? Of course–the faithful perseverance in good works is a mark of faith. We see this tied up in verse 10, which you left out. Does that sound like what Jesus taught? Indeed, it does–Jesus taught of a faith that perseveres in doing good in obedience to Him. It isn’t just faith for the sake of knowing Him–an intellectual assent.

Therefore we can conclude that again you are wrong in your false doctrine.

I am sorry, frodo, but as you can see, the Bible must be taken as a whole; you cannot conveniently ignore passages that do not conform to your own notions, and then present such notions as if it was what was taught by Jesus, or Paul for that matter. Paul referred to eternal life as the crowning glory for doing good works. In Romans 13:10, he would affirm that love is the fulfillment of the Law–and again affirm that love is the greatest virtue of them all, greater even than faith. It doesn’t sound like Paul is teaching sola fide at all. So given that, is salvation through faith and works false then, as we can see even by a few select passages from Paul himself?

 

[Church_Militant]

I keep saying faith alone, BECAUSE that’s what the bible says

.Indeed it does say “faith alone”, but look at the only place in the Bible where it says it.
**James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. **

Logic?

Got some?

Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

In this sentence only faith and the deeds of the law are mentioned. If it’s NOT by the deeds of the law, which is left?

Too bad Catholics don’t believe that we are saved by deeds of the law, though it’s clear that you wish we did.

Faith. Do you see anything else written in that verse that saves? No.

:yawn: 1st Peter 3:21 Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

What He is saying is that we are not saved by our works of righteousness (e.g. baptism, good deeds, going to church, taking communion, ect.)

We ARE saved by HIS righteousness, without works.Gosh…Anyone here know of anything in faithful Catholic teaching that says what he arguing that we believe? I seem to have missed that memo…

The point is that we are not justified by any type of works, wheather of the law, righteousness or works in general.

Really? James 2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

I don’t need catholic faith. I need faith in Jesus Christ.

Apparently you do, since it has been exposed several times now that your gospel is different than that of the New Testament and the catholic Gospel is actually the Biblically correct one.

 

[Church_Militant]

Originally Posted by xfrodobagginsx

**
Now you are talking about the RESULTS of faith, not faith. I have been telling you about faith. The RESULTS of faith are that you have a desire to do God’s will, good deeds, baptism, communion, ect. But they don’t save you. You do them BECAUSE you already ARE saved as I have said many, many, times.**

Again…Faithful Catholics don’t believe that we are saved by our works.

I defy you to provide a single faithful Catholic source that teaches that we do. If you cannot find one then I suggest you find something else to argue against.

A true believer WILL endure to the end, not because of himself, but because of the Holy Spirit that dwells within him.

Really? But the Word of God says, 13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved. It doesn’t say “is saved” or even “has already been saved”. So then, according to the Word of God, if we persevere to the end, we are saved.

The prayer is just a way of starting a relationship with Jesus Christ. If said sincerely to God from the heart, the person certainly will be saved. First of all, you don’t HAVE to say the prayer. What you must do is believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross and rose from the dead for your sins. Admit that you are a sinner. Confess Him as your Savior and Lord. The prayer just sums this all up.

***Ro 10:9 ***Well then perhaps you need to ease up off Catholics, since that is precisely what Catholics have believed for 2,000 years.

No arguement. It’s just that you believe that the works save, I say that you are saved BEFORE you even do the works because of the FAITH.

No… that is your misinterpretation of what we believe, fueled by grossly inaccurate information fed to you by your particular denomination, (as displayed by many of your earlier posts. Do you still believe that “Trail of Blood” is accurate with regard to what it says about the Catholic faith?)

 

[Church_Militant]

Simply calling on Jesus isn’t enough. What He means is that it must be GENUINE. There are people who call on Jesus, but don’t really mean it. The obedience doesn’t save, it’s the faith. Faith RESULTS in works, no arguement there,but the FAITH saves.

**What it means is that lip service isn’t enough, there must be genuine faith in Him from the heart. That will automatically result in works, but it’s not the works that save.**Faith alone. (Sola Fide) is an errant doctrine that was concocted about 500 years ago. It is part of a different and deficient, over simplified gospel that does not reflect what the New Testament says.

xFBx is arguing that we must have genuine faith in Christ. Does the Catholic Church teach anything contrary to that? No they do not.

xFBx is arguing that “lip service isn’t enough”. Does the Catholic Church teach anything contrary to that? No, it does not.

At this point he’s apparently just arguing to seek to save face…

You forgot verse 63 where He said:

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

**He doesn’t mean literally eating Him. It is something Spiritual that happens when we are saved. It’s not about the ritual communion, it’s about salvation that comes when we place our faith in Him alone for salvation.**Really? You have a serious problem here, since Paul obviously disagrees with you.

Look here at 1st Corinthians 10:16-17 and 11:23-30
16] The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?
17] Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread.

23] For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread,
24] and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”
25] In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
26] For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.
27] Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.
28] Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
29] For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself.
30] That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.

If you believe and are baptize you will be saved, but it’s not the baptism that saved you

. It is something that we do AFTER we are already saved.That contradicts the Gospel that was preached by the apostles on the day of Pentecost and the one preached to Paul.

Acts 2:38 and 22:16. 38] And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

16] And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

 

[EHRAM]

So, Frodo, you are now agreeing that genuine faith must result in good works, and that the two must go together?

We are not saved BY faith, we are saved THROUGH faith. We are saved BY God’s grace, which we receive THROUGH faith and the sacraments. We express our faith by obedience to God. And faith itself is a gift, which we are free to accept or reject.

The deeds of obedience do not save. It is God who saves. But if we do not respond to his gift of faith by obedience, then we do not really believe.

I did not intend to imply that the sacraments of Baptism and Eucharist are not necessary for salvation. In fact I pointed out passages that point to their necessity (e.g. Mark 16:16, John 6). One must be born anew/again/from above by water and spirit. (John 3:3-8). Baptism is the sacrament of faith. Baptism, whether by water, blood or of desire, is necessary.

But the sacraments, though necessary, do not, in themselves, save; It is God who saves. “God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.”

The sacraments confer God’s grace when they are celebrated in faith. They are efficacious, because of God’s power.

It would be dangerous to the soul of an unbeliever to receive the Body and Blood of Christ (1 Cor 11). That is why the Church does not practice open communion.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

So, Frodo, you are now agreeing that genuine faith must result in good works, and that the two must go together?

I am not saying that genuine faith MUST result in works. What I am saying is that genuine faith DOES result in works. The faith in Him saves. The works are a result of that salvation.

We are not saved BY faith, we are saved THROUGH faith. We are saved BY God’s grace, which we receive THROUGH faith and the sacraments. We express our faith by obedience to God. And faith itself is a gift, which we are free to accept or reject.

Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is** justified by faith **without the deeds of the law.

Ro 5:1 ¶ Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Ro 5:2 By whom also **we have access by faith into this grace **wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Not faith and sacriments, but by faith alone. You keep trying to add to it.

Not AND the sacriments. Just by FAITH. The faith gives access to grace, which means unearned favor, meaning deeds such as taking sacriments don’t save. You are getting closer to understanding though.

The deeds of obedience do not save. It is God who saves. But if we do not respond to his gift of faith by obedience, then we do not really believe.

I can agree on that, but that’s not what people have been saying. Also, the REASON that there will be good works is because when you are born again, God produces in you a natural ESIRE to serve Him. The others have been saying that works save and they certainly do NOT. It is important because these people are putting their FAITH in their good deeds and not Jesus Christ and you can’t be saved that way. Jesus Christ is the way, not the works.

I did not intend to imply that the sacraments of Baptism and Eucharist are not necessary for salvation. In fact I pointed out passages that point to their necessity (e.g. Mark 16:16, John 6). One must be born anew/again/from above by water and spirit. (John 3:3-8). Baptism is the sacrament of faith. Baptism, whether by water, blood or of desire, is necessary.

I totally disagree here. Now you are flip flopping. Works don’t save…period. They are a natural result of being born again. If we fail to do these works for some reason, we are STILL saved.

But the sacraments, though necessary, do not, in themselves, save; It is God who saves. “God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.”

So, let me get this straight. You believe that God saves through the sacriments? That’s unbiblical and false. No where does it say that sacriments save. When He says to eat His body and blood, He goes on to say that His words are Spirit, not physical.

The sacraments confer God’s grace when they are celebrated in faith. They are efficacious, because of God’s power.

No, the Lord’s supper is eaten in rememberance of Jesus Christ and what He did on the cross to pay for our sins. The cross pays for our sins, not sacriments. You are missing it.

It would be dangerous to the soul of an unbeliever to receive the Body and Blood of Christ (1 Cor 11). That is why the Church does not practice open communion.

That’s not true. I went to a catholic church and anyone and everyone was invited to my knowledge. I did NOT partake because I have too many issues with the catholic church. I do take communion at my church.