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Stephen_C
Guest
Well instead of just copy and pasting bible quotes to fit you…maybe you should use the whole Bible. And yes baptism mentioned here.
drbo.org/
As well since the Bible is a Catholic book. To better understand what it all means. And what the Catholic Church really teaches…what we Catholic’s really believe (since you do not seem to take our word on this) I suggest you go here.
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
Hope this helps.
Oh one more little thing…Catholic’s are both/and thinkers/believers not either/or…
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Philthy
Guest
Well, actually, you did. Here is your quote:
I am not saying that genuine faith MUST result in works…
I said you could be saved, yet not execute things such as baptism, communion, ect. You are doing the same thing with my posts that you do with the bible. You ignore the 99% and focus on the 1% that fits what YOU WANT to be true. This is how cain was. Cain tried to please God CAIN’S way, not God’s way. God did NOT accept Cain’s sacrifice, because it wasn’t what God asked for.
Thanks frodo, the Cain analogy is very powerful - especially coming from you.
You now say that your claim is that “you can be saved without baptism, communion, etc” Fine. I’ll give you the same response: Can you show me one person who was saved without any of these things? Please refrain from any OT or pre-crucifixion events as they are irrelevent to the topic at hand. You will again be silenced. Like you were from the works approach, which you carefully dodged, again.
And for the record - I dont ignore what you say - I carefully scrutinize it and recognize much of it for what it is: intellectually sloppy, Scripturally incomplete, historically unsupportable and logically erroneous. This thread has gone on long enough without someone being perfectly honest with you.
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Wildgraywolf
Guest
Just out of curosity then how would you intrepret these verses?
Mat 13:18 “Listen, then, and learn what the parable of the sower means.
Mat 13:19 Those who hear the message about the Kingdom but do not understand it are like the seeds that fell along the path. The Evil One comes and snatches away what was sown in them.
Mat 13:20 The seeds that fell on rocky ground stand for those who receive the message gladly as soon as they hear it.
Mat 13:21 But it does not sink deep into them, and they don’t last long. So when trouble or persecution comes because of the message, they give up at once.
Mat 13:22 The seeds that fell among thorn bushes stand for those who hear the message; but the worries about this life and the love for riches choke the message, and they don’t bear fruit.
Mat 13:23 And the seeds sown in the good soil stand for those who hear the message and understand it: they bear fruit, some as much as one hundred, others sixty, and others thirty.”
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Philthy
Guest
Where is faith mentioned there? Confessing? Believing?
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
It says it is by grace through faith, not baptism.
Baptism is an act of faith frodo. How many times do we need to say this? Baptism is a part of faith in Jesus.
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Wildgraywolf
Guest
If what you say is true, then what does St. Paul mean by:
Php 2:12 So then, dear friends, as you always obeyed me when I was with you, it is even more important that you obey me now while I am away from you. Keep on working with fear and trembling to complete your salvation
Why did the Philippians obey St. Paul?
Why should they continue to?
Why should they “Keep on working with fear and trembling to complete your (their) salvation”?
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xfrodobagginsx
Guest
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Gamera
Guest
Everyone here agrees that works cannot save us. Nobody can do enough good deeds to wash away even one mortal sin. Only Jesus’ shed blood does that. If we’re in a state of sin, we cannot work our way to a state of grace. But once in a state of grace, we can choose to disobey God and return to the state of sin. Your notion that we are saved by a “state of mind” regardless of our actions is a hair’s breadth away from occultic gnosticism, a belief that we are saved by receiving some kind of mystical knowledge. That rules out salvation for babies, toddlers, mentally inform and senile people. It also contradicts Jesus’ warning that not everyone who says to Him “Lord, Lord” shall be saved, but he who DOES the will of His Father.
Sacraments are received gifts. Jesus is the only one Who “works” in a sacrament. We receive His free, undeserved grace in every sacrament. That’s the whole point — free, undeserved grace. Our efforts have nothing to do with it.
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Odell
Guest
**There is plenty of verses in the bible that say we are saved by faith but not faith alone.
we dont deny that we are saved by faith the bible does say we are saved by faith but the bible also says that only faith working threw love counts for anything
(Gal 5:6) “Only faith working through love counts for anything.” That is how we put faith in action, WORKING through love. Faith has to work to count for anything; it cannot be by itself.
You realize the JWs use passage like you they quote all the passages about Jesus being true man. And use those to prove Jessu was not God. Why cant they take those passages that say he is man as well as God why cant he be both as scripture says?
YOU take passages that say we are saved by faith but dismiss the passages that say works count.
so I have to ask you why cant it be both?
also you have a real problem with a verse you like to egnore
so I have to ask again do you think you have any credibiblity comeing here when you deliberatly skip passages that contradict you?
What are you doing here when you know you deliberatly skip passages that I ask you to explain you cant honestly think you have any credibility do you? Do you like hearing yourself talk?
all I can do is ask agin**
Frodo are those in Heb Ch 10 sanctified or not?
YOU say no scripture says yes
Read Hebrews 10:29 again. It says that the person was “sanctified” (NIV, RSV, KJV) or “consecrated” (NAB) by the blood of the [new] covenant.
Why cant you answer the question?
:coffeeread: :juggle: :coffeeread: :juggle: :coffeeread: :juggle:
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Church_Militant
Guest
“For **by grace **are ye saved through FAITH…”
By grace through faith, by grace through faith…can you say that with me and think about what it says?
We are saved BY GRACE and access it THROUGH FAITH…Nothing else is added here.
Eph 2:8 For **by grace **are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.So…then why is it that you cannot see the sacraments for exactly what they are, expressions of the very faith that you make such an issue of?
Consider:“Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” (Romans 4:3, Galatians 3:6, & James 2:23) Yet, just exactly how was Abraham’s faith expressed?
Genesis 22:[1] After these things God tested Abraham, and said to him, “Abraham!” And he said, “Here am I.”
[2] He said, “Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Mori’ah, and offer him there as a burnt offering upon one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.”…
[9] When they came to the place of which God had told him, Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar, upon the wood.
[10] Then Abraham put forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
Rahab the prostitute: How was her faith expressed?
Hebrews 11:31 By faith Rahab the harlot perished not with the unbelievers, receiving the spies with peace.
James 2:25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way?
Even though it was their faith that saved them, what was the expression of that faith? Go ahead, say it…The Word of God does. It was what they did.
, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But** if it be of works, then is it no more grace**: otherwise work is no more work.
Communion is works. Good deeds are works. Baptism is works. The only thing is says to do is trust Him for salvation by FAITH.So then, why do you deny what the apostle St. James clearly writes about, and what Our Lord plainly tells us about how we will all be judged in Matthew 25:31-46?
You are propounding the errant teachings of men, and in fact that constitutes a different gospel.
The fact is that the very Word of God that you tell us is your sole authority teaches that faith that doesn’t express itself by works is not saving faith at all.
Can a person confess Christ with their mouth (as you harp upon from the scriptures) and still not be saved? Oh wait! You tell me that I must confess with my mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in my heart that God has raised Him from the dead in order to be saved, (to which a faithful Catholic will say AMEN! ALLELUIA! but confessing Him like that is a work isn’t it? And my participation in the sacraments, what is that? A faith induced work that merits the more grace to feed the “breeder reactor” of love for Our Lord that is me.
No xFBx, your gospel is different from the one I find in the Bible and the one the Catholic Church preaches lines up perfectly with both the Bible and the writings of the early church all down through the 2,000 years of Christian history.
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Church_Militant
Guest
** Ga 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.**Here… lemme be sure that you see that passage so that it stays in your mind and heart. I’ve been praying for you and trying to make sure that you see this warning because of the different gospel of men that you keep putting forth.
Remember…you’ve seen it. That means that you no longer have an excuse doesn’t it?
And every faithful Catholic cries out AMEN! ALLELUIA!
But as I have shown you several times and you have now posted the specific passage that I was driving at (under the direction and guidance the Holy Spirit), that different gospel of men may be very dangerous.
1Co 1:17 ¶ For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. {words: or, speech}So then the apostles preached a different gospel on the day of Pentecost under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit when St. Peter preached, "[38] And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 2)
And then St. Paul was led astray when he was preached the following by the man sent to him by the Holy Spirit? “[16] And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.” (Acts 22)
How can that be?
It cannot, can it? Therefore, in a contradiction between any given interpretation of men and the Word of God, that makes the men in error, correct?
Does it? I think we’ve shown many times over that this is only a errant teaching of men and that what you have been taught and continue to teach is just more of that same error.
If you cannot resolve that then perhaps you need to prayerfully begin to carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. (2nd Timothy 2:15)
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Church_Militant
Guest
Is confession not a work?
You have told us that it is when we talk of the sacrament of confession, but this is even more simple. This confession os better known as a profession of faith.
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Church_Militant
Guest
Well instead of just copy and pasting bible quotes to fit you…maybe you should use the whole Bible. And yes baptism mentioned here.
drbo.org/
As well since the Bible is a Catholic book. To better understand what it all means. And what the Catholic Church really teaches…what we Catholic’s really believe (since you do not seem to take our word on this) I suggest you go here.
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
Hope this helps.
Oh one more little thing…Catholic’s are both/and thinkers/believers not either/or…
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xfrodobagginsx
Guest
Let’s let the bible define faith.
Heb 11:1 ¶ Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
It has nothing to do with sacriments, it has to to with hope. According to this passage, faith is hope, saving faith is placing your hope in Jesus Christ as what HE DID on the cross alone to pay for your sins.
Heb 11:1 ¶ Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
It has nothing to do with sacriments, it has to to with hope. According to this passage, faith is hope, saving faith is placing your hope in Jesus Christ as what HE DID on the cross alone to pay for your sins.
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xfrodobagginsx
Guest
This link to the southern baptist statement of faith will help you clearly understand how I beleve:
sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp#iv
sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp#iv
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guanophore
Guest
One of the problems with this is that the Bible does not contain the whole deposit of faith from Jesus.
It is spelled sacrament. Sacraments have EVERYTHING to do with faith and hope. Sacraments are methods that are used to assist people in placing their faith and hope in Jesus Christ, and what he did on the cross. He was not alone, though. His mother and his beloved disciple remained with Him through the end. The sacraments enable us to enter into His death and resurrection.
Statements like you made above make it clear that you don’t understand sacraments.
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Milliardo
Guest
According to this passage? Just to make sure we’re on the same page, I read the whole of Hebrews 11 and there’s nothing in that passage, implicitly or explicitly, that even alludes to what you say. In short, you only come to that conclusion inspite of what’s written there.
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Gamera
Guest
Next post:
See the problem here? The Southern Baptist statement of faith isn’t the Bible. It’s a man-made interpretation of the Bible. You start a point by claiming we should turn to the Bible, then promptly argue things that aren’t in the Bible but are taught to you by preachers or fellow Baptists. You then conclude that Catholics disagree with the Bible, when really Catholics just disagree with Southern Baptists.
We know what faith is. “Alone” is where we disagree. Nowhere does the Bible say we are saved by “faith alone.” James 2:24 says, “So you see a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”
Some Scripture verses say we need faith. Some Scripture verses say we need baptism. Some Scripture verses say we need works. You can’t just choose the verses which mention faith and say, “Look, this one doesn’t mention baptism or works!” Not everything the Bible has to say is contained in each individual sentence.
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Philthy
Guest
Hello frodo-
Before I address your next series of objections flowing from yet another demonstration of your insufficient grasp of analytical reasoning and basic logic I will point out what you missed from my post.
You had attempted to demonstrate that baptism and other elements of faith (what you are calling works) were not part of salvation by listing a number of verses which discuss salvation without mentioning baptism, communion, etc. Yet some of those very same verses fail to mention the things that you preach as being singularly salvific: confessing Jesus, believing, etc. If we are to accept that our position is wrong by your demonstration (and we dont, of course) then logic would compell us to reject your position as well because the very standard which you hold us accountable to(absense of the term in a verse describing salvation) condemns you as well. For example, Romans 10:13 says that calling on the name of the Lord results salvation; no need to “confess” Jesus as Lord and no requirement to “believe”. And so the standard you attempt to use for us condemns you as well. This is very, very basic logic. I dont expect you to understand but this may help others see what is happening on this thread.
BTW - you would do well to actively develop your vocabulary; your inability to articulate accurately reflects an inability to think critically and accurately as well. And please dont respond that you are posting too much - such an excuse is simply a result of your inability to focus the discussion which should flow from carefully expressed, focused thoughts. That hasnt happened yet on this thread. Just my 2 cents.
Before I address your next series of objections flowing from yet another demonstration of your insufficient grasp of analytical reasoning and basic logic I will point out what you missed from my post.
You had attempted to demonstrate that baptism and other elements of faith (what you are calling works) were not part of salvation by listing a number of verses which discuss salvation without mentioning baptism, communion, etc. Yet some of those very same verses fail to mention the things that you preach as being singularly salvific: confessing Jesus, believing, etc. If we are to accept that our position is wrong by your demonstration (and we dont, of course) then logic would compell us to reject your position as well because the very standard which you hold us accountable to(absense of the term in a verse describing salvation) condemns you as well. For example, Romans 10:13 says that calling on the name of the Lord results salvation; no need to “confess” Jesus as Lord and no requirement to “believe”. And so the standard you attempt to use for us condemns you as well. This is very, very basic logic. I dont expect you to understand but this may help others see what is happening on this thread.
BTW - you would do well to actively develop your vocabulary; your inability to articulate accurately reflects an inability to think critically and accurately as well. And please dont respond that you are posting too much - such an excuse is simply a result of your inability to focus the discussion which should flow from carefully expressed, focused thoughts. That hasnt happened yet on this thread. Just my 2 cents.
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Philthy
Guest
“NOT of works” means, quite simply, anything that is “of ourselves” from the very same verse. Anything we do apart from God’s grace. In this particular verse Paul is commenting on what prompted God to save us; what moved Him to provide a means for our salvation. And he is specifically excluding anything that anyone had done (ie not of yourselves) up to that point as having prompted God to save us; as having obligated God in any way; as having earned salvation in any way. That is what “not of works” means in that context. To the audience hearing it from a former Jew, it most likely carried the distinct notion of the Works of the Law. Please note, that the discussion of “How we get to Heaven” or how we become saved is a fundamentally different discussion than the discussion of what prompted God to save us in the first place (Mercy). Paul was discussing the latter. If you fail to recognize the two separate concepts, and then attempt to blend the two issues (what prompted God vs how we are saved) - as you do - it results in error, confusion and apparent biblical inconsistency - all of which has been profusely demonstrated.
Taking all of this in, hopefully it is easy to see that although Baptism is something we act upon, it is not “of ourselves”. It is something that God has provided to us that we cooperate with *in faith. *It is faith in action as required by God. That is not, in the strictest sense(certainly not in the sense Paul was intending) a “work”.
Not let’s hear you respond in a thoughtful, complete, clear manner specifically addressing the issues I have taken the time to carefully comment on.
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