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Church_Militant
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Then by that definition the Catholic Church has been teaching and preaching the gospel faithfully for 2,000 years.
You say, “It has nothing to do with sacriments, it has to to with hope.” yet you deny the Catholic his sacramental expression (which is based upon the Word of God in every instance!) of that very faith-full hope while at the same time denying and contradicting the Word of God when it says that baptism washes away sins (Acts 2:38 and 22:16) and ignore the examples of faith expressed by works in the very examples in the Word of God itself.
As I have pointed out before xFBx, these are the errant modern (Copyright © 1999-2007, Southern Baptist Convention.) teachings of men and as I have pointed out contrast with what the Word of God actually says as well as what the early church wrote that they believed. Since the early church received their discipling from Our Lord through the very men who were themselves discipled by the Lord, who do you suppose knows best xFBX?
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Michael_Francis
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CatholicChick
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Amen…Like Saint Paul said we are saved but also working out our salvation in fear and trembling! OSAS is not scriptural.
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savedsinner
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Well, I just prayed the prayer to cover my bases just in case frodo is correct.
Plus I am also going to join a few other faiths.
You never know.
Plus I am also going to join a few other faiths.
You never know.
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xfrodobagginsx
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OSAS is not only scriptural, your view of salvation based upon works is unscriptural. It runs contrary to the word of God. You are relying upon yourself for salvation, instead of Jesus Christ.
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Gamera
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We don’t believe in a salvation based on works. We believe in salvation based on Jesus’ shed blood.
The poster you quote mentioned working OUT salvation. That is what St Paul wrote. “… work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,” Php 2:12. Work OUT, not work FOR.
OSAS is totally blown out of the water by this one verse alone. If OSAS were true, then why would St Paul caution the Philippians to “work out your own salvation in fear and trembling?”
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savedsinner
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OSAS is not scriptural, and the Catholic church does not teach and has never taught we are saved by our works.
We are saved by God’s Grace alone.
Our response to that grace is faith working in love.
We can not do these works of love on our own power, it by the grace of God that we accomplish them.
OSAS?
I think your stumbling block in understanding how faith and works work together in salvation is that you are taking an either/or view.
It is a both/and issue here.
Our faith needs to be a saving faith, it has to be a faith working in love. This is what St. Paul and St. James both teach.
Catholics believe that we are saved by faith, because that is what the bible teaches.
But we don’t believe that we are saved by faith alone, because the bible doesn’t teach that.
St. Paul uses the word “faith” or other equivalent words 250 times in his epistles, and he uses the word “alone” more than any other New Testament writer. But the Holy Spirit prohibited him from using the words “faith alone” together, but at the same time, the Holy Spirit allowed James to use the words “faith alone” together when he wrote “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”
Why do you think that St. Paul didn’t use the words “saved by faith alone” if that is what he meant?
He is very clear and precise in his writings, and it seems to me that if he had meant that we are saved by faith alone, he would have written that.
Our initial salvation can come from faith alone, but it must be accompanied by charity if we are to persevere to the end.
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Philthy
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Now let’s hear you respond in a thoughtful, complete, clear manner specifically addressing the issues I have taken the time to carefully comment on in posts 317 and 318.
Your good buddy,
Philthy
Your good buddy,
Philthy
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Bigwill
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It never ceases to amaze me how much more confident those who profess OSAS are in their own salvation than St. Paul was in his. Yet, somehow, they don’t see the irony . . .
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Philthy
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Stop getting distracted with off-topic discussions and get back to unfinished business! :yup:
You had asked me “what does not of works mean?” and I responded to you in posts 317 and 318. But I have yet to hear back from you as to your thoughts on what “not of works” means and where, exactly you agree/disagree with my position. It’s important to the discussion of How to Get To Heaven…
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Church_Militant
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Really? I don’t think so.
Look at the notes of this Bible study.
You can download and listen to the MP3 of it here.
And yet we have shown you again and again the scriptures upon which our beliefs are based and you ignore them and counter with statements like this based upon the modern day teachings of men.
Not even all Christians believe in OSAS, only certain sects and denominations.
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Zooey
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You know, OSAS is the thing that relies on yourself, rather than on Jesus Christ. The whole premise is built on the idea, that…How can I say this??
Frodo, I am an old lady, but when I was a little girl, there was a TV program we used to watch, Groucho Marx. He had this little gameshow, & every time someone came on, he would tell them, “Say the secret word, and the duck will come down & pay you $100”. And if you said the secret word, the magic word, a stuffed duck came down on a rope with a $100 bill in its mouth for the person who said it…
OSAS, I think, is a lot like that. You say the “magic words”–which are a little prayer that was made up by Dwight Moody in the 19th Century, and, hey! presto!! --You are going to go to Heaven, even if you
murder your whole family & run off with your secretary, because you won the
Free Ticket to Heaven… Even though you have up and slapped our Blessed Lord in the face…It is all built on man, following a secret formula (which nobody ever heard of for 1800+ years of Christianity), and that trumps the whole of the life & teachings of Jesus Christ… NOT!!
Sorry, Frodo. It won’t do. It just won’t do. “We must needs go home by the way of the Cross”, it says in the old song, and the way of the Cross is the way of following in the footsteps of Jesus. Not the footsteps of a 19th Century preacher, however holy & well-intentioned he may have been (and I believe he was both).
No, the way of Jesus Christ is the way of obedience to Him.No secret words, no ducks coming down, no magical formulas. It’s not an easy road…but it leads Home. Home, by the Narrow Way. Not the other road which leads only to
destruction…
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Milliardo
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Zooey, well said.You know, OSAS is the thing that relies on yourself, rather than on Jesus Christ. The whole premise is built on the idea, that…How can I say this??
Frodo, I am an old lady, but when I was a little girl, there was a TV program we used to watch, Groucho Marx. He had this little gameshow, & every time someone came on, he would tell them, “Say the secret word, and the duck will come down & pay you $100”. And if you said the secret word, the magic word, a stuffed duck came down on a rope with a $100 bill in its mouth for the person who said it…
OSAS, I think, is a lot like that. You say the “magic words”–which are a little prayer that was made up by Dwight Moody in the 19th Century, and, hey! presto!! --You are going to go to Heaven, even if you
It is all built on man, following a secret formula (which nobody ever heard of for 1800+ years of Christianity), and that trumps the whole of the life & teachings of Jesus Christ… NOT!!
Sorry, Frodo. It won’t do. It just won’t do. “We must needs go home by the way of the Cross”, it says in the old song, and the way of the Cross is the way of following in the footsteps of Jesus. Not the footsteps of a 19th Century preacher, however holy & well-intentioned he may have been (and I believe he was both).
No, the way of Jesus Christ is the way of obedience to Him.No secret words, no ducks coming down, no magical formulas. It’s not an easy road…but it leads Home. Home, by the Narrow Way. Not the other road which leads only to
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xfrodobagginsx
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You’re wrong. Ask most of the catholics here. They think it’s about works.
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Milliardo
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Where did you get that notion, frodo? 2 threads about this and still you don’t get it…
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Church_Militant
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In your opinion, which is obviously in error. No one that I have seen so far has made any such assertion, but have offered scripture to give a balanced context of what the New Testament actually teaches.
The fact is that we have sought to explain to you how your different and deficient gospel leaves out important aspects of the scriptural way of salvation. I personally, and many others here, have provided you with supporting scripture to this effect and yet you cling to the modern teachings of men.
Please don’t misrepresent what we have shown you the Word of God says or what the Catholic Church teaches.
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foundthelight
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Frodo,
Jesus shed His blood on the cross to redeem all mankind from slavery to sin. He then created a new covenent with mankind. That new covenent is in His blood. All we need to do is believe and obey.
When God gave Abraham a covenent all Abraham had to do was believe and obey. What was involved in that obedience? Circumcision. Abraham and his descendents did this without question til this very day. If they did not circumcise they were no longer a part of this covenent.
The Mosaic covenent demand not just faith but action. That action being adherance to the Law.
What is it that Jesus told us to do in our obedience? Just a few little things. Let me list some (which I have already done). Baptism, partaking of the Body and Blood, and doing good deeds. All these things have been shown to you with the words of Christ Himself.
There are many in this world that deny clear scripture. Zwingli in particular came up with some very fanciful ways to deny the words of Christ. Calvin when commenting on John 3:5 said: “I cannot believe…”
Frodo,
Just as the prior covenents demanded not just faith but action, the covenent of Christ’s blood demands not just faith but action. Can you show any that didn’t require something on our part?
Are you ready to take that action in obedience to God? Are you willing to admit that faith alone is not enough?
The peace of Christ to you.
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Pixie_Dust
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Would you mind quoting here a Catholic on this board who has said that they think that their works alone will save them? A link to the original post you quote would be nice too. Thanks.
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guanophore
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I believe this is a slanderous statement that bears false witness, and as such, is a violation of the forum rules.
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