How to handle estrangement from my mother when she sends cards to my children?

[TheRealJuliane]

None of us are experts, I am just starting off as a junior Doctor.

There are always two sides of a story and while I do appreciate you telling yours, I am mindful that I am not hearing the other persons version of events.

Has your mother been clinically diagnosed as a sociopath?

I do wonder why your mother is the way she is. Why does she behave as she does towards her children? There must be something underlying this behaviour, maybe something in her past or her childhood. I’m not excusing her behaviour but trying to understand where it stems from.

Sometimes the gap can be too wide to bridge and unfortunately that appears to be the case here. If her children are cutting off all contact with her, we would hope that she is taking a look at herself and seeking answers as to why she is repelling her children.

Like I said previously, there is no reason why you cannot supervise her access to the children, if it’s too much for you, maybe your husband can supervise that. I’m looking ahead to when your children grow up and wonder why they were deprived of that relationship, even if you thought it was the best for them, they may not view it the same way once they are adults. This is similar to feuding parents when one is kept from their children, the children grow up to be resentful of the parent who was present, genuinely trying to protect them and whose sole goal was their well-being.

**I am an optimist, I don’t think any relationship is irreparable with genuine goodwill, counselling and effort by both parties. **

Having been blessed with a wonderful, caring and present mother I could never imagine the hurt that you and your siblings have and continue to experience.

I am concerned that you are receiving and considering advice from others on CAF who have also had terrible relationships with their mothers. That advice may not be wise, professional, unbiased or neutral.

That’s where you’re out of your depth, my friend. There is no genuine goodwill or effort on the part of narcissists and sociopaths. You don’t understand because you’ve never had any experience with these types of people (it’s hard to even write “people” because they can be so inhuman).

No, she does not need to expose her children to her bio-mom. This is a DANGEROUS person! Why in the world would anyone KNOWINGLY allow their children contact with a dangerous person? Why in the world would the children resent being PROTECTED from someone like the OP’s bio-mom?

Why don’t you do a search for the OP’s previous posts about her mom? Read all of them and then come back to this thread and tell her to allow her mother access of any kind to her children. I would say that if she did allow contact, she doesn’t deserve to have her children and they should be removed and taken somewhere safe. She’s doing what she should be doing to protect her children.

When you’ve lived a little longer, your optimism will be tempered with real life experiences.

 

[LEMAITRE]

That’s where you’re out of your depth, my friend. There is no genuine goodwill or effort on the part of narcissists and sociopaths. You don’t understand because you’ve never had any experience with these types of people (it’s hard to even write “people” because they can be so inhuman).

No, she does not need to expose her children to her bio-mom. This is a DANGEROUS person! Why in the world would anyone KNOWINGLY allow their children contact with a dangerous person? Why in the world would the children resent being PROTECTED from someone like the OP’s bio-mom?

Why don’t you do a search for the OP’s previous posts about her mom? Read all of them and then come back to this thread and tell her to allow her mother access of any kind to her children. I would say that if she did allow contact, she doesn’t deserve to have her children and they should be removed and taken somewhere safe. She’s doing what she should be doing to protect her children.

When you’ve lived a little longer, your optimism will be tempered with real life experiences.

Really? Has the mother been clinically diagnosed as a narcissist or sociopath or are you speculating as well?

We are only getting one side of the story here.

How do you know that I have not had personal or professional experience with people like that? You do not know me.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Really? Has the mother been clinically diagnosed as a narcissist or sociopath or are you speculating as well?

We are only getting one side of the story here.

How do you know that I have not had personal or professional experience with people like that? You do not know me.

I can tell that you haven’t. Once you have, you wouldn’t be advising anyone to expose themselves or their children to that kind of pain. What is this to you? Why do you think you have to stand up for this bio-mom?

 

[LEMAITRE]

I can tell that you haven’t. Once you have, you wouldn’t be advising anyone to expose themselves or their children to that kind of pain. What is this to you? Why do you think you have to stand up for this bio-mom?

You can tell can you. From a couple of posts? You have no idea which is why you are becoming emotional.

I am not standing up for the OP’s mum, why would I, I don’t have a horse in this race. If you read my posts you would know that I said we are only getting one side of the story. I am wondering why the mother behaves this way. Something is not right with the mother, she is also hurting which is why she lashes out at her children.

I am not into writing people off, no matter how self-destructive they are. I don’t turn my back on people and yes I have had a self-destructive person in my family with mental and emotional issues who the extended family supported back to the fold.

I am still waiting for evidence that this mother has been clinically diagnosed as a sociopath other than from ‘internet analysts’.

 

[EasterJoy]

You can tell can you. From a couple of posts? You have no idea which is why you are becoming emotional.

I am not standing up for the OP’s mum, why would I, I don’t have a horse in this race. If you read my posts you would know that I said we are only getting one side of the story. I am wondering why the mother behaves this way. Something is not right with the mother, she is also hurting which is why she lashes out at her children.

I am not into writing people off, no matter how self-destructive they are. I don’t turn my back on people and yes I have had a self-destructive person in my family with mental and emotional issues who the extended family supported back to the fold.

I am still waiting for evidence that this mother has been clinically diagnosed as a sociopath other than from ‘internet analysts’.

You’ve missed a lot of entire threads on the OP’s situation with her mom. She has agonized for a long time about her relationship with her, since before you joined the forum.

To bring you up to speed, it does not take a clinical diagnosis to conclude that a person in your social circle, even your mom, is habitually destructive of your dignity and self-admittedly oblivious to your reasonable personal boundaries. The OP doesn’t need a clinician to tell her what kind of treatment she is not going to tolerate from other people, even her mom. There was a long history of drawing boundaries and discussing them, only to have the boundaries wantonly violated. So it doesn’t matter what the mother’s therapist told her. That is not unimportant information in the big picture, but it isn’t needed here.

If you have a self-destructive person back into the fold of your family, then you know that while forgiveness can take place without repentance and amendment, the process of reconciliation and rebuilding of the relationship cannot. Again, this does not take a clinician to diagnose. That diagnosis is for the mother in this story to choose to pursue or not to pursue. The people over whom she has run rough-shod only need to know they’ve had enough. That is where the OP is, and it is not a conclusion she reached lightly or without very good reason.

We don’t do clinical diagnoses here. We only say, “if the person is treating you as a sociopath treats people, then learn the strategies that people being treated like that must eventually use.” Those are two very different things.

 

[CakeState]

I am so sorry you are dealing with this. My family has a similar situation going on, and it’s worth mentioning that manipulative, cruel people can be dangerous to your children when they grow up if they are not warned about what they can do. Don’t assume that your mom won’t hurt your children someday and that letting them get to know her and bond with her, even through cards, is the best thing for them. When they grow into adults, she could end up treating them the same way she treated you, and their ignorance about what she is capable of coupled with a loving bond that even occasional contact can create between grandchildren and grandparents could be a dangerous combination. My parents did not tell me of the terrible things my dad’s ex-wife had been doing to members of our family (such as showing up to their places of work to try and get them fired, or hunting down and contacting our friends to try and turn them against us) because they didn’t think it was appropriate for me to know about it, and they wanted me to bond with my step-sisters. However, this bond with my step sisters was a medium that could be used by his ex-wife to try and get money from me by threatening to do the same terrible things to me that she did to others.

Cruel people do exist, and they can wreck your lives. In some cases, having no contact with a family member is the safest thing. Don’t let anyone guilt you into putting your children in harm’s way. You know better than anyone what your mom can do.

 

[Litcrit]

Do you know if her mother is a clinically diagnosed sociopath or are you just speculating?

…

It’s interesting to me that you also have stated above that you have a toxic relationship with your mother, hardly a person to be giving neutral or professional advice.

Personality disorders are lists of behaviors. A diagnosis made by a hurting family member based on the available criteria really means: “This person consistently behaves like a sociopath/narcissist/etc. does”.

People who deal with the personality disordered can give advice based on experience. “Neutral” advice usually entails someone who had a normal family and loving parents invalidating the sufferer’s truth once again.

That’s where you’re out of your depth, my friend. There is no genuine goodwill or effort on the part of narcissists and sociopaths. You don’t understand because you’ve never had any experience with these types of people (it’s hard to even write “people” because they can be so inhuman).

No, she does not need to expose her children to her bio-mom. This is a DANGEROUS person! Why in the world would anyone KNOWINGLY allow their children contact with a dangerous person? Why in the world would the children resent being PROTECTED from someone like the OP’s bio-mom?

I can tell that you haven’t. Once you have, you wouldn’t be advising anyone to expose themselves or their children to that kind of pain.

We don’t do clinical diagnoses here. We only say, “if the person is treating you as a sociopath treats people, then learn the strategies that people being treated like that must eventually use.” Those are two very different things.

Precisely!

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

It’s interesting to me that you also have stated above that you have a toxic relationship with your mother, hardly a person to be giving neutral or professional advice.

No offense, but in order to really understand something like this, you have to experience it. Really. I bet that those people who have unfortunately grown up with a toxic parent have better advice to give to the OP than a trained professional who has no clue what the OP is talking about.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

You can tell can you. From a couple of posts? You have no idea which is why you are becoming emotional.

I am not standing up for the OP’s mum, why would I, I don’t have a horse in this race. If you read my posts you would know that I said we are only getting one side of the story. I am wondering why the mother behaves this way. Something is not right with the mother, she is also hurting which is why she lashes out at her children.

I am not into writing people off, no matter how self-destructive they are. I don’t turn my back on people and yes I have had a self-destructive person in my family with mental and emotional issues who the extended family supported back to the fold.

I am still waiting for evidence that this mother has been clinically diagnosed as a sociopath other than from ‘internet analysts’.

I am not 'becoming emotional." And no one is writing the OP’s bio-mom off, whatever that means. If the bio-mom had an epiphany and decided to change, and demonstrated true remorse for her previous actions, I am pretty sure the OP would then at least consider some sort of relationship. But perhaps not. And that would be her prerogative. There comes a time when enough pain has been felt, that the hope of reconciliation is lost. One can forgive, yet still not desire that person’s presence in her life.

Your relative with mental and emotional issues must not have been a sociopath or even a narcissist, because people like that NEVER admit any fault in themselves. They will blame everyone around them for everything they do, so if there’s any supporting them “back to the fold,” it’s going to mean the family and friends swallowing their criticism and just putting up with destructive behavior. Not a good way to live, IMO.

Anyway, I think the OP made her decision, so this discussion is unproductive. I’m done.

 

[mommamaree]

Personality disorders are lists of behaviors. A diagnosis made by a hurting family member based on the available criteria really means: “This person consistently behaves like a sociopath/narcissist/etc. does”.

People who deal with the personality disordered can give advice based on experience. “Neutral” advice usually entails someone who had a normal family and loving parents invalidating the sufferer’s truth once again.

!

You are so right, Litcrit. That is EXACTLY what happened when I sought professional counseling. My counselour gave me the worst advice which set me up for an immediate whammy. I went back again one more time to discuss what happened and she still didn’t get it. I live in a small town and this counselour is THE BEST. She is great. But she has NO experience with the personality-disordered. I felt like I was imagining things and my sense of reality was slipping BECAUSE my counselour was unprepared to help me. The best help has come from other people like me, from self-help books written by Christian counselours who deal with this, and from a few confidantes who have been whammied by my mother.

 

[mommamaree]

And no one is writing the OP’s bio-mom off, whatever that means. If the bio-mom had an epiphany and decided to change, and demonstrated true remorse for her previous actions, I am pretty sure the OP would then at least consider some sort of relationship.

Yes, you are right, TRJ.
The Lord can and does work miracles in people’s lives every day. I am putting my faith in Him. But I have learned that I cannot trust my mother. I have also learned I cannot assume anyone will believe me, as evidenced by LeMaitre’s concern for neutrality and for my mother’s side of the story. Most people would react like LeMaitre has. I knew that my thread might attract such attention. It is okay. I am learning how to take the best and leave the rest.
But if my mother ever did have a genuine change of heart and behavior, that would be a cause for celebration and joy. That may not happen this side of heaven, but even if I must wait patiently until this life gives way to eternity, I will still try my best to love her from a distance and pray for her, and with end-of-life issues, make sure she is looked after.

 

[mommamaree]

No offense, but in order to really understand something like this, you have to experience it. Really. I bet that those people who have unfortunately grown up with a toxic parent have better advice to give to the OP than a trained professional who has no clue what the OP is talking about.

Yes, unfortunate but true. Especially here at CAF, people have helped me to learn that I am not crazy, but that I am experiencing emotional abuse.

 

[mommamaree]

LeMaitre,
I understand you are in training as a physician. I understand you really want to help. But, please understand I do not want to be your guinea pig. Nor am I required to provide a forum for my mother to give you her side of the story. I am a faithful Catholic, a loving daughter, and kind person. People who know me personally know that I do not walk away from people or treat them badly. If you want to participate in threads like this, it really would help to take a quick look back at personal histories people share that give a wider perspective of a situation. I left those details out here, because I had a very specific question about estrangement and unsolicited communication to my kids. I wasn’t asking for permission. There are several people here, like EasterJoy, TRJ, Litcrit, and others, who have helped me through all of this step-by-step. But they respect my choices and thankfully, do not accuse me of lying or exaggerating. That is the kind of support emotionally-abused people desperately need, especially as they begin their journey toward healing.
God bless and Merry Christmas.

 

[Irishmom2]

I am still waiting for evidence that this mother has been clinically diagnosed as a sociopath other than from ‘internet analysts’.

I am afraid that you will just have to keep waiting then.

When people post a thread here, there is never evidence or the story from “the other side.” We have only to go by what they tell us, and decide for ourselves whrther what they are saying is believable or not.

The OP did not come here asking if her mom is a sociopath. She asked how to handle the estrangement. She did not ask how to get back together with her mom either. She merely asked for help from people whose judgement she has come to trust over time. If you do not feel comfortable answering because you don’t know if the mother has been clinically diagnosed as a sociopath, by all means, feel free to not offer any comments. But there is no need to argue with others and derail the thread.

 

[Allegra]

Really? Has the mother been clinically diagnosed as a narcissist or sociopath or are you speculating as well?

We are only getting one side of the story here.

How do you know that I have not had personal or professional experience with people like that? You do not know me.

Even if the OP’s side of the story is completely wrong and the mom is a saint and the OP is making it all up (which is highly unlikley) it’s not relevant to the thread. The OP has made the decision to keep away from her mother because they have a toxic relationship. It doesn’t matter who’s fault that is. She was asking for advice of where to draw the boundary. Regardless of who is to blame for the pain and anxiety this relationship has caused, it is not a good idea for the OP to be inconsistant with boundaries as far as her children are concerned. One should not be dragging their children in and out of their grandparent’s lives on a whim or a hope that things will “be better”. It’s just not good for the kids emotionally.

 

[Listener]

Don’t you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar? I have been trying to get my head around this thread, and it is not easy. Maybe it is because I came from a family of nice people.

The person who started this thread would like to send something to her niece. She is afraid that her mother will not give it to her niece. She says that her mother behaves in a toxic manner. I agree that if someone sends a gift, and someone else intercepts the gift and refuses to give it to the person that it’s intended for, this is toxic behavior. Isn’t there a Federal law against stealing someone else’s mail?

Yet, she says that her mother sent her children a gift, and she will not give the gift to her children. To me, this is also toxic behavior that she probably learned from her mother. Unless her mother is a serial killer or something like that, I can’t imagine why someone would withhold a gift given to children by their grandmother. As a grandmother myself, I would be very hurt if I sent my grandchildren a gift and my children refused to give it to them.

We are told to honor our parents. That doesn’t mean we have to like them. It is perfectly acceptable to move to another state to get away from them or to let the message machine pick up if they call too often. It is okay, too, if they start behaving in an unacceptable manner, to leave the room and maybe gather up the kids and say it’s time to go home. You can also explain to the children that Grandma has a mental kind of sickness, in case she upsets them.

I think we need to be polite and simply refuse to get into any kind of disagreement, but I can’t imagine why anyone would want to withhold a birthday card and gift from their children.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

I have been trying to get my head around this thread, and it is not easy. Maybe it is because I came from a family of nice people.

I think we need to be polite and simply refuse to get into any kind of disagreement, but I can’t imagine why anyone would want to withhold a birthday card and gift from their children.

Well…you come from a family of nice people. Sometimes people are not nice believe it or not, in fact they are toxic. When that is the case you may decide you need to protect yourself and your family from that toxic person because damage they case is very bad. A card is not just a card when it comes to such people. Emotional abuse does not leave bruises and broken bones as evidence that abuse happened. For that reason many people, yourself included, don’t understand why a person may want to hide Christmas cards from children. The OP is not a monster or a weirdo. Maybe you could open up to the possibility that her mother is the problem and that the only solution is to shut the door, lock it, and even throw away the key. Some people are simply not very nice.

 

[Eleanor61]

To the latest person who “can’t understand” why you would withhold a card and gift fom Grandma, or Auntie, or any other relative, and to all the others like her:

Because the birthday card may contain nasty comments about their mom…,or even suggest the children run away.

I have experienced the above, just as I have experienced almost all of the O.P.'s experiences with her mother, detailed in another thread.

As someone already said, if you haven’t been through this sort of toxic relationship with your mother, you really cannot understand it. At all. Thank God that you have a “nice” family and stop trying to make mommamaree feel guilty.

At a certain point, and all of us continue trying to salvage these relationships far beyond this point due to a mistaken sense of Christian obligation, time spent with, near, or thinking about our mothers is time taken from our lives. Their presence is a black hole of despair and self-loathing. The only way to protect what is left of ourselves and our families is complete avoidance. Never, ever allow yourself to feel guilty about that. Well meaning people on here who counsel forbearance are abuse naive. They are blessed, but hardly in a position to give advice.

 

[arcangel49]

If I where you. I would fight fire with fire. I know this may not be the most catholic advice, but call, or even better write, your mother saying "I refuse to let you into my life or my daughters life because you are an abusive negligent sociopath, and I will not let you ruin my daughters like you ruined me and my sister. Just let it all out. Also, set up strict no-contact boundaries in place, and don’t let her forget why those boundaries are in place. She can not control you anymore. Not talking to her makes her think she won. And continuing to send her these notes will slowly make her see that her abuse does not phase you. Even encourage your sister, if she feels the same, to also start writing. If she replies back, don’t even read it, and let her know that you did so. sometimes this is what it takes for someone to see what

 

[TheRealJuliane]

If I where you. I would fight fire with fire. I know this may not be the most catholic advice, but call, or even better write, your mother saying "I refuse to let you into my life or my daughters life because you are an abusive negligent sociopath, and I will not let you ruin my daughters like you ruined me and my sister. Just let it all out. Also, set up strict no-contact boundaries in place, and don’t let her forget why those boundaries are in place. She can not control you anymore. Not talking to her makes her think she won. And continuing to send her these notes will slowly make her see that her abuse does not phase you. Even encourage your sister, if she feels the same, to also start writing. If she replies back, don’t even read it, and let her know that you did so. sometimes this is what it takes for someone to see what

Perhaps this might make the OP feel better, in a harsh way. It is most certainly NOT going to result in the bio-mom changing her behavior for the better. Teaching someone a lesson is also not Christian charity. And a sociopath cannot learn that sort of lesson anyway. What you will be telling them is that they were right about you all along, and YOU are obviously the problem. They have been totally justified in any behavior they have been doing and they will feel justified in stepping up their abuse if you give them a chance.

Not a good plan. Distance is the best plan.