How to prove the supernatural?

[Michaelangelo]

How do you know this? Some say “I saw it” and report clothes instantly drying, being able to look at the sun without hurting their eyes, and non natural occurrences. Others say “I didn’t see anything”. You conclude it was an optical illusion. I don’t know myself, however I think it was likely a miracle with that many people and witnesses, including some miles away.

Why did not bother to include the rest of my response in which I explain this? Are you deliberately omitting parts of my response that falsifies your claim or is it just an accident?

You drew conclusions also based on secondary effects. Saying that the gravitational shift “Would have had a dramatic effect on the orbit of mercury at least”. If God was capable of creating a miracle such as the sun moving in the sky could he not do so without gravitational effects. Further were a lack of gravitational effects observed at the time of the event? Were astronomers observing mercury and have instruments accurate enough to measure any gravitational shifts?

The planetary orbit would not just be momentarily effected. But the effect would last a long time. I also pointed out that the rest of the planet having daylight and a clear sky should have seen the jitterbug if it actually took place in space.

This is the challenge with a completely skeptic mindset. If something miraculous does occur those who don’t believe have chosen not to prebiasing the experiment. If there are scientifically inconsistent points, in this case no observed gravitational shift, then it can’t be a miracle because it isn’t consistent with scientific understanding. In a complete skeptics eyes …If it’s a miracle it can’t be a miracle… That doesn’t represent an openness to observational truth either, just as a believer who believes everything just because it was stated.

I pointed out several other inconsistencies, but you for some reson decided to omit those…

 

[Michaelangelo]

Observation takes place by the experimenter by reading the results. And bias is always present potentially in any experiment by interpreting them.

The experimentalist reading the spectroscopic analysis printed on a paper or performing a melting point analysis of a crystal from experiment #17 of 40 during those two weeks the adaptive setup was running, does hardly have an effect of that experiment #17. The chemical reaction took place and came to an end. So no Schrödinger cat effect that you was talking about happens with experiment #17.

 

[Abrosz]

What about for example Fatima? The sun did some miraculous things in the sky…? Many people were there to see it.

I have seen something like it. It was a strange sight of duplicate Suns. And if the Sun would have really danced around, it would have catastrophic results on the whole Earth.

But let’s take a view from quantum mechanics… If your not familiar with it I would recommend looking at the Schrodingers Cat interpretation.

The quantum reality is fundamentally different from the macro reality. The equations WORK, and there is no need for any interpretation.

Just stay with the hypothetical event presented in the OP, and later. The point is multi-fold:

1. There is no special equipment, which needs to be interpreted in any way.
2. There are no special observers, who could be fooled.
3. Even if the stars would move randomly around, that would be contradicted by the known laws of the universe - speed of light, conservation laws, etc…
4. Displaying some text would be absolutely impossible. That would be a true miracle.
5. But the text displayed would present some auxiliary problems. What about the Koran? What about the Kama Sutra? How about the Odyssey? Or the Communist Manifesto? These would all be undeniably miraculous events… but what what would they prove?

 

[ReaderT]

And if the Sun would have really danced around, it would have catastrophic results on the whole Earth.

I think the same can be said about all the stars in the sky (i.e. distant suns) shifting positions to spell out a Bible verse!

 

[Abrosz]

I think the same can be said about all the stars in the sky (i.e. distant suns) shifting positions to spell out a Bible verse!

It would not have ANY physical effects. NONE! Even if it would spell out the Odessey - using Klingon language.

 

[ReaderT]

It would not have ANY physical effects. NONE! Even if it would spell out the Odessey - using Klingon language.

If there are no physical effects, how can we determine that it actually happened? If the star apparently moved lightyears across the universe - but has zero of the effects of having moved lightyears (according to “the laws of physics and astronomy that are established beyond any doubt”) - then the scientist will say “it couldn’t have happened. That’s not how physics works. Must have been an optical illusion. If the sun really did move, it would’ve [effects here].”

People could say they are drones, not stars. There was a Superbowl gimmick a few years ago - those are thousands of drones making images in sky:

 

[Servant31]

Why did not bother to include the rest of my response in which I explain this? Are you deliberately omitting parts of my response that falsifies your claim or is it just an accident?

I try to respond to as much as I can.
What Claim are you referring? Im not seeing anything which falsifies my claims.

The planetary orbit would not just be momentarily effected. But the effect would last a long time. I also pointed out that the rest of the planet having daylight and a clear sky should have seen the jitterbug if it actually took place in space.

If there was truly a miracle Is this a requirement. Why? If God could create a miracle, why couldn’t He do it without changing planetary orbits?

 

[Servant31]

I have seen something like it. It was a strange sight of duplicate Suns. And if the Sun would have really danced around, it would have catastrophic results on the whole Earth.

Since you have seen something like it…it couldn’t have been a miracle? I’m not following your reasoning?

 

[Abrosz]

If there are no physical effects, how can we determine that it actually happened? If the star apparently moved lightyears across the universe - but has zero of the effects of having moved lightyears (according to “the laws of physics and astronomy that are established beyond any doubt”) - then the scientist will say “it couldn’t have happened. That’s not how physics works. Must have been an optical illusion.”

Or a mass hypnosis which affected everyone on Earth. But to display legible texts on the night sky is so unlikely to happen by some non-miraculous means that it is not worth to take it seriously.

Since you have seen something like it…it couldn’t have been a miracle? I’m not following your reasoning?

You can never prove a universal negative. If there is simple and plausible natural explanation: “meteorological effect”, then by Occam’s razor it should be accepted as a null-hypothesis.

 

[ReaderT]

But to display legible texts on the night sky is so unlikely to happen by some non-miraculous means that it is not worth to take it seriously.

If you look at the link in my last post, you can see we can already make images with hundreds of drones in a night sky. Here was Lady Gaga at Superbowl 2017 - the American Flag behind her is hundreds of drones with red/light/blue lights:



Edit: The drones also made the Pepsi logo!

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Abrosz]

If you look at the link in my last post, you can see we can already make images with hundreds of drones in a night sky.

And how long did it take to discover the trick? Which telescopes and astronomers were fooled? Astronomy is pretty good at separating tricks from the reality. True, that some people can be fooled, but that is a common phenomenon.

The fun thing is that believers accept at face value even the most ridiculous claims.

 

[ReaderT]

Astronomy is pretty good at separating tricks from the reality.

Right, and that is why an astronomer who sees a star in a different galaxy - but without the physical effects it should cause (you said “It would not have ANY physical effects. NONE!”) - that astronomer will conclude what he’s seeing is astronomically impossible and must be a glitch in his data, because the science wouldn’t possibly allow such a thing to be reality.

 

[Pattylt]

Why is it that sun miracles are only believed by believers? Maybe one or two people converted to a religion…was it yours? Are these illusions for the benefit of believers only?

If the sun miracle did not produce any physical effects then it was a mass hallucination, not a physical miracle by definition. This one was predicted in advance, was it not. Don’t you think most of those there were expecting it thus got exactly what their expectations were. Those there to debunk it, saw nothing…exactly as they expected, too. Is a mass hallucination a miracle? Not to me. And mass hallucinations do really happen. There are documented cases of them. If no physics were actually violated, then it’s not a miracle, plain and simple.

 

[EssentialBeing]

It seems like the question is how to use the natural to prove the supernatural. I posit that it’s impossible for something lower to prove something greater.

Not sure its impossible but we certainly lack the biology. If I could add that the human eye & retina is responsible for blocking our vision of spiritual beings.

 

[Michaelangelo]

It’s not a theory. It’s a hypothesis. No sample needs to be taken from the cloth to make a preliminary test. Any analytical chemist worth his/her salt would know this. This professor devising this hypothesis (which has serious plot holes) should also know this. Which makes the expertise somewhat questionable in my eyes.

 

[Bruce_Killian]

From this it follows that the position of the stars cannot be doubted. However, a supernatural entity, let’s call it God, is not limited this way - at least according to the believers. God could rearrange the stars at will, and could make them display any message he desires.

In fact there are at least several cases where God did arrange the stars to communicate a message. I have worked on a manuscript of signs in the heaven related to Jesus’ star (Venus). When the text of the scripture links directly to a picture in the sky on the day and time of the events like the sign of the straight highway in the heaven http://www.scripturescholar.com/StarBook.pdf see chapter 8 pg 64.
I think these signs should help to convince even an atheist that God/Jesus/Catholic Church are real.
Grace and peace, Bruce

 

[MPat]

However, I’ve found that it’s absolutely useless on these forums (and in digital communications in general), because 1) people will simply ignore your questions rather than actively engage with them, and 2) proper application of the method often involves reading a lot of nonverbal cues from the participants, which is absolutely impossible to do on the Internet.

Then observe and be amazed:

Let’s say there really was such a miracle, that you would accept.

And…? Then what…?

Would you fall on your knees, loudly sing praises to God for having mercy on you, telling everyone around that you were a dishonest and prideful fool?

Or would you do something else?

I’m not a drama person so I doubt I’d fall on my knees as I rarely ever prayed that way…

Well, would a miracle like that make you believe that you were a dishonest and prideful fool? That there was something very wrong about you, that kept you an atheist?

Or would you say that everything about you was mostly fine, you just didn’t have evidence that was good enough?

I would obviously realize I was wrong and that my pride might have been in the way. But, I don’t think I was a fool.

And what if this “loss of face” is actually highly desirable? What if there is something very wrong with you, and you have to face this fact?

In such case, wouldn’t a miracle of the kind that allows you to “save face” be counterproductive, wasting a good opportunity to achieve that goal for little benefit?

But, of course, it is a very short line of questioning.

people will simply ignore your questions rather than actively engage with them

Sometimes (as on another thread) it is possible to deal with that problem by repeating the question, pointing out that it was not answered, and saying nothing else (giving no distractions).

 

[Abrosz]

In fact there are at least several cases where God did arrange the stars to communicate a message.

Visible and comprehensible for anyone looking up at the night sly? Repeating the same text in every possible language, for everyone to understand? Changing from day to day? Did something like that happen? The astronomers (both professional and amateur) would have a field day with such a phenomenon.

 

[Bruce_Killian]

Visible and comprehensible for anyone looking up at the night sly? Repeating the same text in every possible language, for everyone to understand? Changing from day to day? Did something like that happen? The astronomers (both professional and amateur) would have a field day with such a phenomenon.

God doesn’t communicate with words. Few can read. He tells stories with star pictures. He reveals what He will say. Then He says it once. But since He uses the most visible wandering stars so programs we can go back and see the stories He told. The link I gave reveals how He does it. How we can know. The signs clearly reveal Jesus as the one who opened heaven and it is way to get there.
grace and peace, Bruce

 

[Abrosz]

God doesn’t communicate with words.

That is not my problem. And these days pretty much everyone has access to any modern device to translate the text to speech.