How to re-educate so that people will understand about abortion?

[limerick]

I explain each week of gestation. In this process I explain exactly what stage of development the child is at (Before you ask I use the scientific terms to refer to the blastocyst, embryo, fetus, etc) and what type of abortive procedures are used. I stated this in my first post and then you asked a question that this statement answers. Limerick, I like you – I really do – but please read my posts before responding to them.

If you have a 13w 5d pregnancy in your workshop do you tell her right away about the timeframe for surgical vs medical abortion? I read your posts all the way through before I respond - maybe I didn’t completely absorb what you wrote.

Ummm, this isn’t how it works in PA right now. The girls who are at my workshops have decided to come to the workshops for a number of different reasons – I don’t know them all – I don’t ask why they are there beyond the fact that they are pregnant. I assume they are there because they decided to make an educated decision about abortion.

In other words, PA has no 24-hour cooling-off period? A girl can just make an appointment and show up that day for a procedure?

The girls in my workshops are not from a different state and if they are underage (which is 14 for these purposes in PA) they are there with parental consent. Therefore, this question is irrelevant to my workshops.

If you don’t know all the girls, how can you be sure some of them are not from out of state? What if one is considering applying for Judicial Bypass?

I do not overlook any of the things that you mentioned. I present a fair and balanced education. The question is printed on a piece of paper. They are handed the paper at the beginning of the workshop and they drop it in a box (anonymously) on their way out the door. I do not lead them in any way, I simply present the truth to them.

What does the tally of answers indicate to you? Do you believe this is a reflection of your unbiased approach to tutoring them on pregnancy and options?

I really do not understand why you’re attacking me in this way. In earlier posts you asked me not to ask you to defend our entire legal system. I am not a lawyer. I am not responsible for the informed consent laws being on the books. However, they are laws and they should be upheld, period.

**Just because I am asking pointed questions or challenging you does not paint me as a vengeful adversary. I’ve been taking a lot of heat here the past couple of weeks but I don’t intend to wither under it. **

You have stated that abortion is legal and that it is a matter of privacy for the women to decide whether or not they wanted to procure an abortion. Well, isn’t it also a matter of their privacy if they choose to attend a workshop series which informs them about what abortion is and the alternatives to it?

Absolutely.

You have also stated that you support abortion because it is legal, but informed consent laws are the law and you’re saying that those laws should be broken in the case of abortion.

I am not in any way saying the informed consent laws should be broken, abandoned, or swept under the rug. They must be presented to any woman considering abortion OR adopting out OR carrying to term. My concern is that they be presented to every pregnant woman in a timely fashion, so that all options are still available to them - whenever and wherever possible.

… There is no follow up to my workshops. The percentage that choose not to abort is based on those who contacted me or the center and told us that they choose not to abort. We did not send them a mailing, phone them, e-mail them, or contact them in any way. 80% of the girls who go through my workshop have, without any incentive, contacted me or the center and told us that they did not abort their baby.

So you don’t have any workshop statistics on the percentage of abortions, spontaneous abortions, ectopics, live births and adoptions out, is this correct?

Why do you instantly assume that I am incapable of presenting fair and truthful information to people?

Primarily because you are disclosing this effort on a Roman Catholic forum, and the way you have worded some of your disclosure, particularly the “fill in the blanks” portion, is easy to misinterpret, as if you are looking for accolades for persuading these young women that abortion is “murder”. What do they say on these little slips of paper? How do they actually respond? And why do they respond that way? Do you even consider the power you have to advise or influence them? They are probably vulnerable and fearful. They might even want to please you, perhaps by giving you the “correct” answer to your question as opposed to the honest answer.

Haven’t I spent this entire thread saying that this is what everyone involved in the debate should be doing? Why are you opposed to people being educated about abortion?

**I may be a lot of things, but I am not opposed to people being educated about abortion. My argument has always been for complete, honest, accurate education with regard to sex and sexuality, pregnancy, childbirth, relationships, and the quest for genuine maturity. Many on this board are opposed to or fearful of that. They cling to the idea that sex education breeds promiscuity. I don’t believe that for a second. Ignorance is the enemy here. And I believe that people who hold children and adolescents and young adults in ignorance are the biggest sinners of all. This is where you will find the root cause of abortion.

Limerick**

 

[allhers]

I may be a lot of things, but I am not opposed to people being educated about abortion. My argument has always been for complete, honest, accurate education with regard to sex and sexuality, pregnancy, childbirth, relationships, and the quest for genuine maturity. Many on this board are opposed to or fearful of that. They cling to the idea that sex education breeds promiscuity. I don’t believe that for a second. Ignorance is the enemy here. And I believe that people who hold children and adolescents and young adults in ignorance are the biggest sinners of all. This is where you will find the root cause of abortion.

Limerick

I was taught absistence, I was not told how to properly put a condom on someone, I was not taught that I needed to protect myself from sperm, I was not told that I had to know how to properly take artificial birth control, I was not told that sex was a right that I was
entitled to. I was taught to remain pure and that when I was Married it would be a beautiful
experience. I was taught to remain open to life, I was taught that sex between one man and one woman in the Sacrament of Marriage was Sacred.

I was taught a lot of beautiful things when I was growing up, by my parents, Nuns and Priests and not once did I feel the need to listen to the “world” instead. I didn’t ever go into a planned parenthood building, or think that perhaps my parents and teachers were wrong and that maybe I ought to consider having sex before marriage because afterall, what was wrong with that?

I was told it was sinful, I was told it was an offense to God, I was told the truth, not lies.

When I was a teenager, I never worried every month if I was late, I never had a V.D., I
never had multiple partners, I never felt like maybe I was misinformed, I didn’t think that
the culture that I found myself living in was a good one. I grew up in the drug and free sex
era where it seemed like most people were not living the Sacramental life that I was.

Looking back, I would do it all over again. But…people that I know who didn’t listen
and instead deceided to listen to the “world” and p.p. and all the other evils have told me that if they had to do it all over again, they would have remained pure.
They would have stayed a virgin until they Married and they would have never had sex with so many people and that they would have never taken birth control, or aborted their babies or adopted their babies out. They would instead have done what I did.

There is no ignorance, sin or abortion going on in absistence education.

 

[Drawmack]

Limerick,

When you’re parsing a post please close the quote tag before you type your response and then open a new quote tag before the other person’s words restart. The quote tag is the word quote inside of square brackets. The close quote tag is the same thing but proceed the q in quote with a /. This will make responding to your posts easier.

If you have a 13w 5d pregnancy in your workshop do you tell her right away about the timeframe for surgical vs medical abortion? I read your posts all the way through before I respond - maybe I didn’t completely absorb what you wrote.

The first time I see any of these girls is at the first workshop. The first workshop covers the weeks of gestation and all the information I have detailed twice now. I do not ask the girls their gestation, it isn’t pertinent to the information I am providing them because I cover every week of gestation in the first presentation. So, within two hours of the first time I have seen them they have this information. How much more immediate would you like it to be?

In other words, PA has no 24-hour cooling-off period? A girl can just make an appointment and show up that day for a procedure?

I wasn’t aware that was what you were talking about. I believe that in PA all appointments must be made for 24 hours in the future be they walk-ins or by phone unless there is a medical reason for the abortion.

If you don’t know all the girls, how can you be sure some of them are not from out of state? What if one is considering applying for Judicial Bypass?

I do not provide information about Judicial Bypass because I do not have the time to cover legal issues like that. I know they are not from out of state because the place that fills the seats for me only assists people who are residents of the county I live in and the entire county is within the state.

What does the tally of answers indicate to you? Do you believe this is a reflection of your unbiased approach to tutoring them on pregnancy and options?

Most of them say negative things. Many of them say murder – a word that never leaves my lips. I never mention killing anything. I always use the PC terms. I talk about terminating the pregnancy. I talk about aborting the fetus. I do not use pro-life rhetoric, because I do not have to. If someone is truly informed about what abortion is I can describe it in the nicest possible language and the truth will come through.

Just because I am asking pointed questions or challenging you does not paint me as a vengeful adversary. I’ve been taking a lot of heat here the past couple of weeks but I don’t intend to wither under it.

The pointed questions paint you as vengeful. If you want information about what I do I will gladly provide it. But, there is no need to do so in a confrontational manner.

Absolutely.

Then why do you assume that my workshops are a bad thing?

I am not in any way saying the informed consent laws should be broken, abandoned, or swept under the rug. They must be presented to any woman considering abortion OR adopting out OR carrying to term. My concern is that they be presented to every pregnant woman in a timely fashion, so that all options are still available to them - whenever and wherever possible.

It is not anyone’s fault, except the mother’s, if she did not take the responsibility for her condition early enough to get an abortion. You have talked, at length, in this thread about how parental rights and responsibilities begin when the pants are undone. Well, if she waited too long to get an abortion that’s not my fault and it’s not the fault of the people who made the informed consent laws and it’s not the fault of how long the informed consent takes. She should have been quicker in recognizing her situation.

to be continued…

 

[Drawmack]

So you don’t have any workshop statistics on the percentage of abortions, spontaneous abortions, ectopics, live births and adoptions out, is this correct?

No ectopics are in the workshop to begin with, only viable pregnancies. As for the other things you mention, no hard statistics are kept. We do keep track of those who call or write of their own volition to inform us of their choice – be we in no way solicit that information. I conduct my workshops to educate ONLY! Do I hope they choose birth – absolutely. But my intent is simply to educate.

Primarily because you are disclosing this effort on a Roman Catholic forum,

Have you read what I’ve been writting in this thread? How much of this thread have I spent arguing against the way that other pro-lifers attempt to educate people? Do you think I’m arguing against that because I do it myself?

and the way you have worded some of your disclosure, particularly the “fill in the blanks” portion, is easy to misinterpret, as if you are looking for accolades for persuading these young women that abortion is “murder”. What do they say on these little slips of paper?

Most of them say negative things. I get the gammut from murder to choice to bubble gum. Yes, I did actually have someone write bubble gum on the slip.

Do you even consider the power you have to advise or influence them? They are probably vulnerable and fearful. They might even want to please you, perhaps by giving you the “correct” answer to your question as opposed to the honest answer.

Hello, allow me to introduce myself. I am a teacher by trade. Yes, I know these things and I know how to avoid them.

I may be a lot of things, but I am not opposed to people being educated about abortion. My argument has always been for complete, honest, accurate education with regard to sex and sexuality, pregnancy, childbirth, relationships, and the quest for genuine maturity. Many on this board are opposed to or fearful of that. They cling to the idea that sex education breeds promiscuity. I don’t believe that for a second. Ignorance is the enemy here. And I believe that people who hold children and adolescents and young adults in ignorance are the biggest sinners of all. This is where you will find the root cause of abortion.

Mine is as well. We differ on some things. For example: I think that abortion should be illegal and you don’t. However, when I educate that is what I do. I am not out to convince anyone of anything. I am out to provide the facts and let people make their own decisions. It took me over two years, after my workshops were developed, to find a place that would let me present them. The pro-life places wanted me to put more emphasis on the “wrongness” of abortion. The pro-choice places wanted me to tone down the graphic content. I refused to do either. I’ve been told before that if it’s a hot button issue and you upset both sides you’re probably presenting the truth.

(Due to time constraints this post has not been proof read)

 

[limerick]

limerick,

when you’re parsing a post please close the quote tag before you type your response and then open a new quote tag before the other person’s words restart. The quote tag is the word quote inside of square brackets. The close quote tag is the same thing but proceed the q in quote with a /. This will make responding to your posts easier.

The first time I see any of these girls is at the first workshop. The first workshop covers the weeks of gestation and all the information i have detailed twice now. I do not ask the girls their gestation, it isn’t pertinent to the information i am providing them because i cover every week of gestation in the first presentation. So, within two hours of the first time i have seen them they have this information. How much more immediate would you like it to be?

**At the risk of appearing like ee cummings in print, I ask you to understand that when I edit my posts on this computer and repost, almost all capital letters have been reduced to lower-case letters. Proceed with awareness that I did not intend to have my post read this way.

You have all the cards here. I’m just the doof asking the questions. Don’t be so testy. I’ll practice your formatting when I get around to it. (I can’t follow your directions.)

How do these girls happen to come to you and your workshop? Is this a government or community-sponsored workshop? Where does the funding come from? This has bearing on my answer to your immediacy remark.**

I wasn’t aware that was what you were talking about. I believe that in PA all appointments must be made for 24 hours in the future be they walk-ins or by phone unless there is a medical reason for the abortion.

****In Pennsylvania, the following restrictions on abortion were in effect as of January 2008:

* the parent of a minor must consent before an abortion is provided.
* a woman must receive state-directed counseling that includes information designed to discourage her from having an abortion and then wait 24 hours before the procedure is provided.
* public funding is available for abortion only in cases of life endangerment, rape or incest.
* abortion is covered in insurance policies for public employees only in cases of life endangerment, rape or incest.****

I do not provide information about judicial bypass because I do not have the time to cover legal issues like that. I know they are not from out of state because the place that fills the seats for me only assists people who are residents of the county I live in and the entire county is within the state.

Judicial Bypass is not merely a legal issue. It is an option that every minor has a right to be aware of. Or don’t you counsel minors?

Most of them say negative things. Many of them say murder – a word that never leaves my lips. I never mention killing anything. I always use the PC terms. I talk about terminating the pregnancy. I talk about aborting the fetus. I do not use pro-life rhetoric, because I do not have to. If someone is truly informed about what abortion is I can describe it in the nicest possible language and the truth will come through.

Brava.

The pointed questions paint you as vengeful. If you want information about what I do I will gladly provide it. But, there is no need to do so in a confrontational manner.

It’s a shame you view it in that light.

Then why do you assume that my workshops are a bad thing?

I do not. I’m the only one on this thread who has asked you anything about your workshops, or am I full of mistake again?

It is not anyone’s fault, except the mother’s, if she did not take the responsibility for her condition early enough to get an abortion. You have talked, at length, in this thread about how parental rights and responsibilities begin when the pants are undone. Well, if she waited too long to get an abortion that’s not my fault and it’s not the fault of the people who made the informed consent laws and it’s not the fault of how long the informed consent takes. She should have been quicker in recognizing her situation.

I have talked about how parental rights and responsibilities begin before the pants are unzipped: This comes under the heading of “teaching” - parents teaching their children. Not children teaching themselves. If a woman gets pregnant at all, it’s not your fault, nor is it mine: the absolute cornerstone of my argument for personal responsibility and accountability. The rest of this portion of your post is addressed by my sentiments as explained above. Do you teach them anything about birth control?
**
limerick**

 

[St_Francis]

**At the risk of appearing like ee cummings in print, I ask you to understand that when I edit my posts on this computer and repost, almost all capital letters have been reduced to lower-case letters. Proceed with awareness that I did not intend to have my post read this way.

You have all the cards here. I’m just the doof asking the questions. Don’t be so testy. I’ll practice your formatting when I get around to it. (I can’t follow your directions.)**

OK. You have hit the quote button, and are in the text box. This is what you see:
postername:

The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.

Before you write your comment, you can put this in, without the asterix (which I need to put in to disable the command), and you don’t need capital letters, even tho the automatic ones come out in caps:

Your comment here. Then, again ignoring the asterix:

Quoted comments continue here

The reason for all this is that when we try to quote you, your comments don’t come out, and we have to got back and forth copying and pasting.

So:

postername:

Comments comments

Comments comments comments

comments comments comments

Your reply here, whatever you want to say.

Resumption of quoted poster’s comments until final

 

[St_Francis]

…Third, I think that people should become active (I don’t care what side you’re on become active in educating people). I already do this. I do this by holding workshops, provided free of charge, to pregnant teenage girls at risk of getting an abortion. It is a series of four workshops…

I think that your workshops are a great idea. I am wondering, however, if the young women who go to them are required to go or not?

I am also wondering if maybe a similar set of workshops, or maybe one one-day workshops could be formatted for giving to people who are not pregnant? I know that in some places, abortionists are allowed to come into the schools and give a speech to the students; your workshop could certainly be given in those schools, and perhaps in churches when the schools wouldn’t permit this. (In which case, one could add a part about pregnancy prevention, perhaps focusing on the *best *means available).

 

[vz71]

Quoting another definition does not invalidate the definition I quoted it simply shows that you lack the ability to effectively utilize the accepted tool of linguistic acuity. And, that other dictionary you quoted still has a definition that supports this usage of the term. Thanks for linking to the original!

Not at all.
What it shows is that your claim that I am not using the word correctly was entirely incorrect.
While you successfully quoted a single definition that does not fit the usage I utilized, you failed to mention that nearly every other definition there did.

That is often referred to as cherry picking.
And it errodes credibility.

 

[vz71]

It absolutely is a red herring to compare abortion to slavery.

Correct.
And that is why it is important to listen to what is being said.
The comparison is not between abortion and slavery.
The comparison is between those that refused to see the humanity of others centuries ago and those that refuse to see the humanity in others today.

 

[vz71]

The moderator says this issue is off topic, so I won’t be participating in this thread any further. Good luck.

Actually, I thought that Walt was talking about the election comparisons going around. Walt, could you clarify what was off topic please?

I believe it was as well.
But some wish to use the confusion to duck the argument.

 

[fix]

It absolutely is a red herring to compare abortion to slavery. It is, in no way, an apt analogy. Are you forgetting that slavery was ended by Lincoln to get the blacks to stop fighting for the south. There was no moral high ground about the abolition of slavery, it was outlawed to win a war. The 3/5 rule wasn’t even repealed for many years after that.

Pro slavery folks think it is moral to own a slave. They can easily say do not own one if you do not want to but do not interfer with my “choice”. That is a fair analogy.

No, the pro-abortionist who offers such quotes would simply be pointing out the ever present hypocrisy that exists within the Catholic Church. Take the teaching on causing scandal and people protesting in a scandalous manner.

No, that is your incorrect interpretation being substituted for what She actually teaches. The usual agitprop.

 

[fix]

Correct.
And that is why it is important to listen to what is being said.
The comparison is not between abortion and slavery.
The comparison is between those that refused to see the humanity of others centuries ago and those that refuse to see the humanity in others today.

As I said the only “incorrect” aspect of the analogy is that in some ways abortion is much worse.

 

[Drawmack]

You have all the cards here. I’m just the doof asking the questions. Don’t be so testy. I’ll practice your formatting when I get around to it. (I can’t follow your directions.)

I will be more patient. I’m sorry if that last post sounded testy. I was typing it quickly because I had company coming over.

How do these girls happen to come to you and your workshop? Is this a government or community-sponsored workshop? Where does the funding come from? This has bearing on my answer to your immediacy remark.

The workshop is held in a conference room that is provided for my use free of charge by a local non-profit pro-life agency. The girls are scheduled for attendance by the organization that provides me with the room. There is almost no funding needed for my workshops. I do not get paid. I provide all the materials for the workshops out of my pocket. The only resources I utilize are a projector – which is already in the room and the room – which is already in their building and the secretary and counselors – who are already on staff – to sign people up. The girls are not charged, I am not paid, all material costs come out of my pocket. I guess it costs the organization about $3.00 in electricity every time I conduct it (4 times a year). I’m not sure where that $3.00 comes from.

Judicial Bypass is not merely a legal issue. It is an option that every minor has a right to be aware of. Or don’t you counsel minors?

I, to this point, have not been covering that. I will look into it and try to find a place to put it in. That might be something worth talking about in the services provided by the government workshop. Thank you for the (name removed by moderator)ut.

I do not. I’m the only one on this thread who has asked you anything about your workshops, or am I full of mistake again?

I didn’t mean to say you were full of mistake. The tone of your posts seemed confrontational. I’m sorry if I read a demeanor into them that was not intended. I am glad you’re asking about, I am happy to provide information on them. I just do not want to do so in a way that I am defending them.

I have talked about how parental rights and responsibilities begin before the pants are unzipped: This comes under the heading of “teaching” - parents teaching their children. Not children teaching themselves. If a woman gets pregnant at all, it’s not your fault, nor is it mine: the absolute cornerstone of my argument for personal responsibility and accountability. The rest of this portion of your post is addressed by my sentiments as explained above. Do you teach them anything about birth control?

I only have 8 hours. Birth control and preventing future pregnancies is outside the scope of my workshops. I do not talk, in any way, about sex education. I talk about the options they have available to them for dealing with their current pregnancy. Sorry, if you view this as wrong. But sex education is not the intent or scope of the workshops. The intent and scope of the workshops it to teach pregnant teenage girls about every option available to them in dealing with their current pregnancy only.

 

[Drawmack]

I think that your workshops are a great idea. I am wondering, however, if the young women who go to them are required to go or not?

Some of them are probably forced to attend by parents or whatever. I do not ask the girls why they are there and neither does anyone else. I present the workshops as if they are there simply to get educated about the options with their pregnancy: nothing more – nothing less.

I am also wondering if maybe a similar set of workshops, or maybe one one-day workshops could be formatted for giving to people who are not pregnant? I know that in some places, abortionists are allowed to come into the schools and give a speech to the students; your workshop could certainly be given in those schools, and perhaps in churches when the schools wouldn’t permit this. (In which case, one could add a part about pregnancy prevention, perhaps focusing on the *best *means available).

I haven’t tried that because I doubt that any school would let me present my workshops to the students. Most pro-life organizations do not like my workshops because I do not focus enough on the “wrongness” of abortion. Most pro-choice organizations do not like my workshops because I am too graphic when I describe gestation and how abortions are performed. I figure that’s probably a good thing. If I’m upsetting both sides, I’m probably doing a good job of toeing the line and providing fair and balanced information.

 

[Drawmack]

Correct.
And that is why it is important to listen to what is being said.
The comparison is not between abortion and slavery.
The comparison is between those that refused to see the humanity of others centuries ago and those that refuse to see the humanity in others today.

Those who we are attempting to re-educate (which is what this thread is about) will most likely not make such a distinction. They will simply use such an analogy to rip your argument apart. Why give them the opportunity?

 

[Drawmack]

No, that is your incorrect interpretation being substituted for what She actually teaches. The usual agitprop.

Yeah well, I’m not the only one who’s left the Church over the it.

 

[vz71]

Those who we are attempting to re-educate (which is what this thread is about) will most likely not make such a distinction. They will simply use such an analogy to rip your argument apart. Why give them the opportunity?

A common debate tactic I have seen used is to place a weak sounding argument out there. See if the opposition takes it and runs. Then snap the fact that the argument is not at all what they assumed it to be.

Go ahead…take it…run with it.
Once the assumption is revealed, their credibility takes a hit.

If used properly, it can be very effective.
If not, it can hurt your own argument.

In educating others to defend the pro-life position, I would urge caution.

 

[Drawmack]

A common debate tactic I have seen used is to place a weak sounding argument out there. See if the opposition takes it and runs. Then snap the fact that the argument is not at all what they assumed it to be.

Yes, it’s called leading the herring.

Go ahead…take it…run with it.
Once the assumption is revealed, their credibility takes a hit.

If used properly, it can be very effective.
If not, it can hurt your own argument.

There are two problems with using such a technique. First, it relies on who is the better debater rather than who has the better case. Secondly, if the person is a skilled debater they will call you on it instead of running with it and then you look like the jerk.

In educating others to defend the pro-life position, I would urge caution.

The majority of the arguments I see for using the type of rhetoric I’m urging against using rest, entirely, on these types of tactics which can be turned around on the one using them. The facts, both medical and scientific, support pro-life intrinsically so why use language and tactics which can just as easily hurt as help you?

 

[limerick]

I think that your workshops are a great idea. I am wondering, however, if the young women who go to them are required to go or not?

I am also wondering if maybe a similar set of workshops, or maybe one one-day workshops could be formatted for giving to people who are not pregnant? I know that in some places, abortionists are allowed to come into the schools and give a speech to the students; your workshop could certainly be given in those schools, and perhaps in churches when the schools wouldn’t permit this. (In which case, one could add a part about pregnancy prevention, **perhaps focusing on the *best ***means available).

**You are suggesting bias here. Drawmack specifically stated there is absolutely no bias in the presentations in her workshops.

Limerick**

 

[St_Francis]

**You are suggesting bias here. Drawmack specifically stated there is absolutely no bias in the presentations in her workshops.

Limerick**

I wrote: …and perhaps in churches when the schools wouldn’t permit this. (In which case, one could add a part about pregnancy prevention, perhaps focusing on the best means available).

In which case: ie, if given in churches.

(And do you deny that abstinence is the best way to avoid pregnancy?)