If it is so well documented that the church teaches as you have said, then you should have no trouble coming up with the proper documentation concerning the church teaching.
Your credibility is at stake here.
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How to re-educate so that people will understand about abortion?
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Your credibility is at stake here.
For one who thinks through things, you certainly have a hard time producing documentation of your accusations.These are, quite simply, a restatement of the actions taken. Maybe you’re right maybe I shouldn’t be teaching children anything; God forbid someone who actually thinks about things and doesn’t just follow a man made institution like a sheep should teach children.
Here, this may help you out…
scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm
It is a link to the Catechism online.
The first step is taken for you.
Now please, provide the documentation showing the church to teach as you have said.
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St_Francis
Guest
The return is in the Church which you have left.**But what about your dues and fees? Would you get them back? The time, the effort, the money, the people-pleasing exercises with the nuns - where’s the return, St. Francis?
L**
The insult is held in maintaining the belief that man has no control of his passions.Deep insult? Let’s see:
"Abstinence is the best way to avoid pregnancy, but it is an unrealistic and incomplete approach to educating young people about their sexuality."
How is this observation a “deep insult”? Whom do you contend is insulted by this? Have you made a dime yet?
Limerick
This is inherent in the argument that abstinence is unrealistic.
You really should research a little before making statements on a topic you know little to nothing about.If excommunication is final, it’s Final.
If it is not final, it has lost all power and legitimacy and has relegated itself to a game.
What you have written about excommunication is laughably incorrect.
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limerick
Guest
**OK. Much like the Lotto. Put in a little, hope to get a lot, wind up with nothing.The return is in the Church which you have left.
L**
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limerick
Guest
**And you’re going to try to convince a rape victim with that line of thinking? Fail.The insult is held in maintaining the belief that man has no control of his passions.
This is inherent in the argument that abstinence is unrealistic.
Limerick**
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limerick
Guest
I suppose … I don’t really care. And all I know, or care to know, about it is what Church reps told me. If God’s messengers are wrong, who is right? God’s other messengers??You really should research a little before making statements on a topic you know little to nothing about.
What you have written about excommunication is laughably incorrect.
Limerick
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St_Francis
Guest
Do you know of one single person who thinks that it was *all right *for that jerk to rape his step-daughters?Allhers,
Yes I do. I spent countless hours consulting with an army of priests and bishops about my issues with this before I decided that I could no longer call myself a Catholic in good conscious.
To be in communication (in this sense) means to be in communion. To be excommunicated means to no longer be in communion. If these people incurred latae sententiae excommunication then so be it, they can go to confession, perform their penance and be recommunicated. However, these three people were publicly excommunicated. While the step-father who raped a girl from the age of 6 to 9 was not publicly, or privately, excommunicated.
I’m not even going to get into the breach of do not cause scandal here. However, the implication is clear to everyone who isn’t blind or stupid.
It’s really pretty simple. Abortion = Excommunication; Raping a 6 year old does not.
You can tell me I’m wrong all you want. You can attempt to sugar coat this in any way you want. You can do any verbal gymnastics you need to do in order to support a corrupt institution that would use Jesus words to teach this that you like. But, do not expect me to turn a blind eye to this travesty.
The man who did that is in a state of mortal sin. He is barred from receiving Communion. And everyone, not just Catholics, agree that he committed a heinous act. The Brazilian government will prosecute him and throw him in prison, where even the prisoners will hate him.
Are you thinking that the fact that the Church did not excommunicate him means that he is somehow in a better position than those who killed the two unborn babies? Because if so, that is where your misunderstanding lies.
Another area we all need to keep educated on is the ability of others in the debate to toss in a red herring. This is actually an attempt to distract from the argument at hand and to avoid the uncomfortable topic of abortion.
In this instance… bashing the church.
Sorry guys, but I see the tactic for what it is.
Spewing forth hatred of the church may work as a distraction, but it is a little more then that.
The hatred taints your words and ideas. Whatever audience there is to your wrath will be turned off by this hatred. And you will have lost your debate without even addressing the topic.
In this instance… bashing the church.
Sorry guys, but I see the tactic for what it is.
Spewing forth hatred of the church may work as a distraction, but it is a little more then that.
The hatred taints your words and ideas. Whatever audience there is to your wrath will be turned off by this hatred. And you will have lost your debate without even addressing the topic.
S
St_Francis
Guest
Depends on whether you look to people in the Church to to give you what you need or whether you look to Christ, Whose Body the Church is. We people are members of that Body, but we are not the Body. The Body is Christ.**OK. Much like the Lotto. Put in a little, hope to get a lot, wind up with nothing.
L**
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WillieWonka
Guest
"Archbishop Sobrinho defended his action. Asked why he did not excommunicate the 23-year-old stepfather, he said: “He committed an extremely serious crime. But that crime, according to canon law, is not punished with automatic excommunication.”
telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/brazil/4968239/Brazils-president-attacks-Vatican-for-condemning-nine-year-old-rape-victims-abortion.html
telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/brazil/4968239/Brazils-president-attacks-Vatican-for-condemning-nine-year-old-rape-victims-abortion.html
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limerick
Guest
**So if one has Christ, what does one need with all the extraneous folks?Depends on whether you look to people in the Church to to give you what you need or whether you look to Christ, Whose Body the Church is. We people are members of that Body, but we are not the Body. The Body is Christ.
L**
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Drawmack
Guest
How about the other thread on these boards which links to a priest’s blog where he writes about not toning down the rhetoric?Could you please point me to the appropriate document which shows this?
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Drawmack
Guest
The Church publicly excommunicated the two doctors and the mother. The Church did not take any public or private action against the step-father. It does not matter what civil action each will or will not face. It does not matter what type of communal shame each will or will not face outside the Church. The simple fact is the woman and the two doctors were excommunicated but the child molester was not. People keep asking for documentation, look up the articles on this case! It’s all there in black and white.Do you know of one single person who thinks that it was *all right *for that jerk to rape his step-daughters?
The man who did that is in a state of mortal sin. He is barred from receiving Communion. And everyone, not just Catholics, agree that he committed a heinous act. The Brazilian government will prosecute him and throw him in prison, where even the prisoners will hate him.
Are you thinking that the fact that the Church did not excommunicate him means that he is somehow in a better position than those who killed the two unborn babies? Because if so, that is where your misunderstanding lies.
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St_Francis
Guest
If a person has Christ, he wants to attain Heaven so as to be with Him for all eternity. However, this person is not the only person who has Christ and wants to attain Heaven, and many of those other people are those “extraneous folks.”**So if one has Christ, what does one need with all the extraneous folks?
L**
Additionally, God created us as social beings, which is not to say that all of us are extroverts who want to be constantly surrounded by people, but that we do not live in isolation, nor are we meant to. Part of our road to salvation is dealing with people around us. You may say that you want to isolate yourself, but what do you do when your electricity goes out? Do you go out and try to fix the transformer or electric lines yourself or do you rely on the employees of the company to fix them? Do you raise your own food or do you get some from the grocery store?
All that aside, we are a part of the communion of saints. On a spiritual level, we pray for each other, help each other, perform works of mercy for each other. We need others if only to obtain the sacraments: even priests need other priests for confession.
You look at every bad thing which some Catholic has done to you and you blame the Church. It is not the fault of the Church–people who do bad things, people who do not exercise proper oversight and allow bad things to happen, these are the faults of people in the Church, these are actions contrary to what the Church teaches and is supposed to be.
If instead you meditate on Christ and what He did for us, and why He did it, and what He did it for, then you can begin to glimpse a beautiful vision. Consider how things would be if everyone was a perfect Catholic–that is what God’s will is for us. The fact that people mess this up is not the fault of the Church but the fault of the people as individuals.
If I were trying to make a tapestry and the threads were messed up, weak and easily broken, improperly dyed and so losing their color, and so on, would I blame the tapestry? No, the problem would lie with the threads.
As long as you do not correctly define the source of the problem, you will search for the wrong solution. I am a sinner, you are a sinner, we are all sinners. If we cannot each see how sin is what damages, and how each of us has contributed some damage, then we will focus on the wrong thing and direct our efforts in the wrong direction.
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St_Francis
Guest
It is true that the rapist was not excommunicated. The Church reserves excommunication for a few situations, one of which is abortion.The Church publicly excommunicated the two doctors and the mother. The Church did not take any public or private action against the step-father. It does not matter what civil action each will or will not face. It does not matter what type of communal shame each will or will not face outside the Church. The simple fact is the woman and the two doctors were excommunicated but the child molester was not. People keep asking for documentation, look up the articles on this case! It’s all there in black and white.
Which would be worse: for the stepfather to rape his step-daughters or to kill them?
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limerick
Guest
**When one’s spirit is killed, one is dead. Those girls will never be right. He should be in lock-up.It is true that the rapist was not excommunicated. The Church reserves excommunication for a few situations, one of which is abortion.
Which would be worse: for the stepfather to rape his step-daughters or to kill them?
Limerick**
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Drawmack
Guest
And, the provided list of excommunicable offenses (posted earlier in the thread) includes abortion but does not include raping children. Therefore, those who keep telling me I’m wrong should really study the rules of the Catholic Church a little bit more thoroughly.It is true that the rapist was not excommunicated. The Church reserves excommunication for a few situations, one of which is abortion.
Which would be worse: for the stepfather to rape his step-daughters or to kill them?
You want my honest opinion. The six year old would be better off murdered than raped, especially being raped for 3 years. Do you have any idea the life long damage and suffering sexual abuse unleashes on an innocent child. They would be better off dead.
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St_Francis
Guest
You wrote: Yeah well, I’m not the only one who’s left the Church over the it.How about the other thread on these boards which links to a priest’s blog where he writes about not toning down the rhetoric?
I wrote: Has the Church been teaching that those arguing against abortion should compare abortion with the US institution of slavery?
Your wrote: Members of the teaching magistrium have been doing that.
I asked for documentation. Your reply is above.
When a priest or other person expresses his own opinion on a matter about which the Church has not spoken, he is not speaking *as *a member of the teaching magisterium but as a private person. His opinion is not in agreement with yours. I personally think that the argument about slavery is a very good argument. I also personally think that there are times when we ought to keep the rhetoric racheted up. Will you now leave any organization of which I am a member?
And yet you say you left the Church over this issue? And that you are not the only one? That makes no sense.
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