How to re-educate so that people will understand about abortion?

[vz71]

Yes, my sloppy capitalization on a message board speaks as many volumes as does your lack of the possessive on the step-father’s soul on that same message board. Do not weigh to heavily on minutia of grammar on message boards it’s a dangerous road.

Hypocritice is the first word to come to mind here.

Earlier in this thread you were hanging people on the minutia of vocabulary.
Then you were insistant concerning the usage of pro-abortion instead of pro-choice.
Then you…

Your own argument towards the English language rather then the logic of the argument has been a common theme in this thread.

 

[Drawmack]

When you apologize for your personal attacks on the Church, I’ll think about it.

It is interesting that you make, even the consideration of, your apology for an unfounded attack on me contingent on my apology for an attack on a third party. Why is your guilt contingent on someone else’s?

I happen to believe that no matter what happens to anyone who is a member of His Church, that they don’t up and leave because they don’t agree, they work from within to change things.

I refuse to be affiliated with any organization which demonstrates that it believes when raping a 9 year old girl results in a pregnancy and the that pregnancy is terminated those who terminated the pregnancy deserve excommunication when the rapist, who is the root cause of the abortion, does not.

They pray about it, they unite their sufferings to the Lord for the salvation of the world, (as I pointed out above) and they continue to live a Sacramental life, trusting in HIM, no matter what!

I did pray about it, for countless hours. I spend countless hours in counsel with priests and bishops in person, on the phone, and via e-mail. I pray, endlessly, for the grace to accept this. Then one night, I prayed for God to show me what he wanted me to do. The next day a priest said to me, “There comes a point when one must ascent or leave.” and when I got home I found a flyer from another Church on my door.

I don’t think they ought to get all angry, leave and then go around throwing temper tantrams and telling everyone they encounter that the Church is wrong. What does that accomplish??

I didn’t get all angry. I didn’t throw a temper tantrum. I simply stated the facts of the situation. That those facts are unpalatable is not my fault. What is accomplishes is to get people to think about the Catholic Churches teachings and what those teachings actually mean.

 

[Drawmack]

Hypocritice is the first word to come to mind here.

Earlier in this thread you were hanging people on the minutia of vocabulary.
Then you were insistant concerning the usage of pro-abortion instead of pro-choice.
Then you…

Your own argument towards the English language rather then the logic of the argument has been a common theme in this thread.

You are talking about completely different word usages, I am talking about capitalization. One is an honest mistake the other is not. No logical person would content that they accidentally typed anti-life when they intended to type pro-choice.

 

[St_Francis]

…The step-father should have been given AT LEAST the same treatment as the mother and doctors. By the Catholic Church taking a graver action against the mother and doctors than they did against the step-father they are demonstrating that the step-father was in a less sinful state that the mother and the doctors. That is how I see it anyway, unless of course excommunication has nothing to do with how grave the sin is?

Pretty much.

Excommunication is for grave sins, but is not an indication of gravity of sinfulness. Some excommunicatable offenses are not as serious as certain non-excommunicatable mortal sins.

It’s kind of like this: if you are convicted of mass murder, the DMV will not move to revoke your driver’s license, but if you forget to pay a traffic ticket, they will. Doesn’t mean that the DMV thinks that mass murder is ok, but it doesn’t mean that every driving offense resulting in license revocation is unimportant either.

 

[Drawmack]

Pretty much.

Excommunication is for grave sins, but is not an indication of gravity of sinfulness. Some excommunicatable offenses are not as serious as certain non-excommunicatable mortal sins.

I do not understand how excommunication is not an indication of the gravity of the sin. If the Catholic Church states that a certain sin demands excommunication, but that another sin does not demand excommunication is the Catholic Church not stating that a certain sin demands one be removed from participating in the sacraments which the Catholic Church also teaches are necessary for salvation but that another sin does not demand this removal?

It’s kind of like this: if you are convicted of mass murder, the DMV will not move to revoke your driver’s license, but if you forget to pay a traffic ticket, they will. Doesn’t mean that the DMV thinks that mass murder is ok, but it doesn’t mean that every driving offense resulting in license revocation is unimportant either.

This analogy doesn’t really make any sense to me within the current context. I am talking about the Catholic Church excommunicating people for x and not excommunicating people for y. The entity at question remains the same here. You are talking about Criminal Courts and the DMV, the entity at question is changing here.

 

[St_Francis]

I have reversed your comment as I think it will be easier to answer your questions that way.

This analogy doesn’t really make any sense to me within the current context. I am talking about the Catholic Church excommunicating people for x and not excommunicating people for y. The entity at question remains the same here. You are talking about Criminal Courts and the DMV, the entity at question is changing here.

True, they are separate, but they are both part of the state government, no? So… if I say that gee, the state of Alabama doesn’t revoke someone’s license automatically if they are convicted of mass murder, but they do if someone merely forgets to pay a ticket! How crazy is that? Does the state of Alabama think that not paying a ticket is worse than mass murder? Etc., etc.,

Now, let’s apply that to the situation with regard to excommunication in general. First of all, mortal sin is a “different department” from excommunication; it’s the Executive Branch, you might say Secondly, what you might call the department of deciding what constitutes grounds for automatic* excommunication is a minor branch of the Catholic Church, just as the DMV is not quite as important to the state as the Department of Law Enforcement.

*What we have been calling excommunication is actually *automatic *excommunication, so that rather short list of offenses which “call for excommunication” is actually only those things which call for *automatic *excommunication. Don’t freak out! The excommunication applies *only if the person knew that the action he was about to commit had that penalty. *So if a woman had an abortion but didn’t know it carried that penalty beforehand, then it would not apply to her.

Now, excommunication itself can also be applied to other actions, but in those cases, it is not *automatically *applied.

I do not understand how excommunication is not an indication of the gravity of the sin. If the Catholic Church states that a certain sin demands excommunication, but that another sin does not demand excommunication is the Catholic Church not stating that a certain sin demands one be removed from participating in the sacraments …but that another sin does not demand this removal?

No.

All mortal sin demands removal from participation in the sacraments. Those who are guilty of mortal sin are barred from all the sacraments except Confession (except in rare circumstances), after which they may again receive the sacraments.

Both rape and abortion are mortal sins. Both have the same effects of death of the soul, and all that entails, unless/until the sinner goes to Confession and the sins are absolved.

However, because it is quite clear to everyone that rape is a mortal sin, but not clear to everyone that abortion is, the Catholic Church brings that out through the means of automatic excommunication.

…which the Catholic Church also teaches are necessary for salvation …

Receiving the sacraments, except for Confession and Last Rites (under certain circumstances) while in a state of mortal sin has no beneficial effect on the recipient. Grace cannot enter the soul which is in a state of mortal sin. Moreover, receiving the Eucharist while in a state of mortal sin is *another *mortal sin.

The fact that the sacraments are necessary for salvation is not a sort of rule: don’t get the sacraments and you are out of luck. The sacraments are an outward sign that grace has been given. It is the *grace *which is necessary for salvation, and the only sure way that we know of to receive that grace is through receiving the sacraments. A person who cannot for some reason receive the sacraments can pray for the grace which he would otherwise receive (Spiritual Communions, etc); however, the grace imparted by the sacraments is blocked by mortal sin.

Excommunication doesn’t really *add *to the “penalty” for committing mortal sin, it merely announces in cases where it is not always known by people that that particular act is a mortal sin.

 

[Drawmack]

True, they are separate, but they are both part of the state government, no? So… if I say that gee, the state of Alabama doesn’t revoke someone’s license automatically if they are convicted of mass murder, but they do if someone merely forgets to pay a ticket! How crazy is that? Does the state of Alabama think that not paying a ticket is worse than mass murder? Etc., etc.,

I would look at you and say, the murderer is in jail and has lost all his freedoms, the guy who didn’t pay the ticket can’t drive for a while but is free to walk the streets. Then I would wonder what type of “medication” you were on to make such a blatantly ridiculous comparison.

Now, let’s apply that to the situation with regard to excommunication in general.[/qutoe]

Okay

First of all, mortal sin is a “different department” from excommunication; it’s the Executive Branch, you might say Secondly, what you might call the department of deciding what constitutes grounds for automatic* excommunication is a minor branch of the Catholic Church, just as the DMV is not quite as important to the state as the Department of Law Enforcement.

CCC 1463 - “Certain particularly grave sins incur excommunication, the most severe ecclesiastical penalty, which impedes the reception of the sacraments and the exercise of certain ecclesiastical acts, and for which absolution consequently cannot be granted, according to canon law, except by the Pope, the bishop of the place or priests authorized by them. In danger of death any priest, even if deprived of faculties for hearing confessions, can absolve from every sin and excommunication.”

Please note that the CCC clearly states that “particularly grave sins incur excommunication”. The clear implication is that sins which incur excommunication are of a graver nature than sins which do not incur excommunication.

*What we have been calling excommunication is actually *automatic *

excommunication, so that rather short list of offenses which “call for excommunication” is actually only those things which call for *automatic *excommunication.

Yes, we have been using excommunication when we should have been more specific, but I think that all involved understood that. If excommunication is automatic that means that the megisterium understands the sin as so grave that the most severe sentence the Catholic Church can proclaim is automatically proclaimed against those who commit these sins. So, according to the CCC sins which incur excommunication (automatic or not) are “particularly grave”. Let’s look at what sins are so “particularly grave” that they incur automatic excommunication: schism, heresy, apostasy, sacrilege against the Blessed Sacrament, physically attacking the Holy Father, a priest who absolves his partner in a sexual sin, consecration of a bishop without papal mandate, violating the seal of confession, and murder (including abortion). – catholic.com/thisrock/2007/0711fea4.asp

So: pull the Pope’s hair get excommunicated, a priest absolving his sexual partner excommunicated, rape a 6 year old no excommunication. By the definition of excommunication, presented in the CCC as part of the ordinary teachings of the Catholic Church, those sins which incur excommunication are more grave than those sins which do not. From what I have read in my Bible I’m fairly certain that Jesus would have allowed himself to be physically abused before he allowed a 6 year old child to be raped, but you’re excommunicated for abusing Jesus’ Real Presence and not for raping a 6 year old. That just does not make any sense to me and I cannot accept that this is ordained by God.

Don’t freak out! The excommunication applies *only if the person knew that the action he was about to commit had that penalty. *

So if a woman had an abortion but didn’t know it carried that penalty beforehand, then it would not apply to her.

Yes, because of the teachings on what makes a sin a mortal sin.

Now, excommunication itself can also be applied to other actions, but in those cases, it is not *automatically *

applied.

Right – it requires something akin to a criminal hearing (I know it’s vastly different; I’m trying to be brief so please forgive the over simplification)

All mortal sin demands removal from participation in the sacraments.

Those who are guilty of mortal sin are barred from all the sacraments except Confession (except in rare circumstances), after which they may again receive the sacraments.

Okay, but excommunication carries special weight as is pointed out in the definition quoted above.

Both rape and abortion are mortal sins. Both have the same effects of death of the soul, and all that entails, unless/until the sinner goes to Confession and the sins are absolved.

But, excommunication (especially a public one) carries a stigma with it that ordinary mortal sin does not. And, it carries this stigma because excommunication is reserved for “particularly grave” sins. By the definition of excommunication it is for the most mortal of all mortal sins (I wish I could phrase that better).

However, because it is quite clear to everyone that rape is a mortal sin, but not clear to everyone that abortion is, the Catholic Church brings that out through the means of automatic excommunication.

The definition in the CCC never mentions anything about sins which are universally accepted as sins not incurring excommunication. It says that excommunication is for “particularly grave” sins not for “non-universally recognized sins”.

(to be continued …)

 

[Drawmack]

The fact that the sacraments are necessary for salvation is not a sort of rule: don’t get the sacraments and you are out of luck. The sacraments are an outward sign that grace has been given. It is the *grace *which is necessary for salvation, and the only sure way that we know of to receive that grace is through receiving the sacraments. A person who cannot for some reason receive the sacraments can pray for the grace which he would otherwise receive (Spiritual Communions, etc); however, the grace imparted by the sacraments is blocked by mortal sin.

CCC 1129 – “The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation”

This looks very much like a rule to me.

CCC1084 – “The sacraments are perceptible signs (words and actions) accessible to our human nature . By the action of Christ and the Holy Spirit they make present efficaciously the grace they signify”

The sacraments are not “an outward sign” that grace has been given. According to the CCC The sacraments “make present efficaciously the grace they signify”. According to the ordinary teachings of the Catholic Church the sacraments provide the grace, they are not a sign of it – that’s the difference between a sacrament and a sacramental.

Excommunication doesn’t really *add *to the “penalty” for committing mortal sin, it merely announces in cases where it is not always known by people that that particular act is a mortal sin.

I keep getting told this, but let me just point something out and see if you can clarify it for me (with documentation from Catholic teachings).

According to the definition of mortal sin, if one does not know it is a mortal sin that fact, in and of itself, makes the action not a mortal sin. According to the definition, quoted above, excommunication is for “particularly grave” mortal sins. These two statements seem to contradict what you have said above.

 

[WillieWonka]

St. Francis: However, because it is quite clear to everyone that rape is a mortal sin, but not clear to everyone that abortion is, the Catholic Church brings that out through the means of automatic excommunication.

If it is not clear that abortion is a mortal sin, is it clear artificial birth control is a mortal sin? If that were the rational, wouldn’t ABC fall into the same class?

 

[allhers]

Drawmack,

Having read through all of your posts since the last time I responded, up until I started writing this anyway… I am truly sorry for the horror that you’ve had to live through, that you may still be living through, in ways mentally, emotionally and spiritually. But, I, and many others are not unaware.

Apparently we all handle what happens to us in the way that we understand best. I do
understand more of your plight, however, I do not believe that excuses your attacks here on the Church for what you perceive to be a horrible injustice. In all truth it is probably just
that you don’t understand something correctly, for whatever reason, perhaps you are
incapable of understanding since from what you said yourself in an earlier post, you quit praying years ago. Perhaps you are just angry with God, perhaps as a child you blamed Him for not answering your prayers and now you turned your back on His Church.

While I am certainly not God, never claimed to be and have no idea in this, but I would
guess that in perhaps in your case, the one who abused you may be the one that God holds responsible for you ultimately leaving the Church, not praying, etc…I don’t know.
Like I said, I’m not God, I believe in His everlasting mercy though. I believe He awaits your return.

I also understand now better why that Priest would have suggested to you that eventually
you get to the point where you either agree with the Church or leave. You constantly battle one thing after another, I suggest it isn’t us that you are trying to convince, but rather yourself for the decision you made, and at that time, for the decision you were trying to make.

There have been many times in my life when I have come home from either Mass, praying at Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, at a chapel for the Rosary, from a Shrine,
the Cathedral, whatever…and have found invitations from denominations in the area, either in my mail box, on my porch or hanging off the handle to my door, yet still I’m Catholic and go to the Catholic Church. Never once did I take that as a sign from God that He wanted me to go to some other denomination, and if I did, well, I’d still have quite a choice to make since there were so many different ones, from different denominations.

Decisions,decisions, I wonder which one He really wants me at? (Seems rather ridiclous when put that way doesn’t it? There are so many to choose from aren’t there? Especially when one has so many left at their feet.

Discernment comes through prayer. When you pray for discernment you find out one of three things,

1. Is this MY will. 2. Is this GOD’s will. or 3. Is this from the evil one.

I suggest that neither you or the one who chooses mortal sin prayed at all. You both
therefore ended up lost.

Earlier you said that you quit praying years ago and then you say you came home from
praying and found the ad for another denomination at your feet. Which is it? You quit praying or you didn’t quit praying? Make up your mind.

In either case, giving you the benefit of the doubt yet again, lets say it was after you finally, from years of not praying, finally deceided to start praying again and then came home and found that from that denomination you are now in. You ought to have gone back to prayer, that is discernment, after, not before you make a decision.

We could battle back on forth on this endlessly, but why bother? You’ve made your decison, and I hope you are finally happy now, but it doesn’t sound like it.

I on the other hand, have a completely different story, which I may share at some point, it is one of prayer, Sacraments, sticking with Jesus through it all and I still am happy I did that and I can pray and offer sacrifices and sufferings for the salvation of souls that are in dire need of prayer.

I will keep you in my prayers as you work through your volunteer time helping people to
know and understand just what abortion is, and I do hope that you suggest lots of prayer and that you yourself offer prayers for them. I know I will.

 

[St_Francis]

…
CCC 1463 - “**Certain **particularly grave sins incur excommunication, the most severe ecclesiastical penalty,…”

Please note that the CCC clearly states that “particularly grave sins incur excommunication”. The clear implication is that sins which incur excommunication are of a graver nature than sins which do not incur excommunication.

Note the construction of this sentence which you have quoted: Certain particularly grave sins…

What this means is that of the numerous particularly grave sins which exist, *certain *ones of them were put on the list for automatic excommunication. I will not address those of your comments which rely on this misunderstanding, but will add that exommunication is made public only when necessary, so stigma does not necessarily attach.

 

[allhers]

St. Francis: However, because it is quite clear to everyone that rape is a mortal sin, but not clear to everyone that abortion is, the Catholic Church brings that out through the means of automatic excommunication.

If it is not clear that abortion is a mortal sin, is it clear artificial birth control is a mortal sin? If that were the rational, wouldn’t ABC fall into the same class?

Well, if they can read your post and mine, they can just as easily go to sites like this to
learn the truth.

These are the usual experts that I turn to, just for starters - (besides this site of
course, that we are on: www.catholic.com):

www.vatican.va -The official Vatican web site
www.usccb.org/nab/bible -Online Catholic Bible
www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm -Cathechism of the Catholic Church
www.all.org -Judie Brown
www.priestsforlife.org -Fr. Frank Pavone
www.hli.org -Fr. Thomas Euteneuer (International Priest for life)
www.fathercorapi.com -Fr. John Corapi (see my signature below)
www.ewtn.com -Eternal Word Television Network, founded by Mother Angelica, a Franciscian
www.omsoul.com -One more soul (for God)
www.cogforlife.org -Children of God for life
www.lifesitenews.com -Up to date daily news that helps understand what is going on in our world and what we can do to help.
www.zenit.org -The world seen from Rome…and last but not least
www.thepillkills.org

If you seriously want to know the truth, those sites, and I believe they all have search engines, ought to help.

 

[Drawmack]

allhers,

Perhaps somethings about my story got muddled through it coming out piecemeal in posts.

I quit praying many, many years ago – as a very small youth. (Crying on pictures books of Jesus while your father beats your siblings bloody can have a seriously detrimental effect on the spiritual growth of a 5 year old.) Then I began again about five years ago. In this praying I was led to Christianity and to the Catholic Church. Through the case in Brazil, which I have been talking about here, and many other (much less consequential) problems I had accepting teachings of the magisterium I began to pray for the grace to accept them. Then I prayed for God to show me where he wanted me to go, but I didn’t mean that in a way of which denomination do you want me to attend. I intended that more as show me where it is your will for me to be that I may understand you to the best of my ability. I did not intended for this to lead me from Catholicism when I said it, I was thinking something along the lines of putting a different priest or some different Catholics in my path. Instead I had a priest suggest I leave the Catholic Church and I was presented with an alternative (I’ve been living in this apartment for 2 years and it was the first time I’ve seen such a flyer in the neighborhood). I took that alternative and yes I am happier where I am now. But, I get very angry when people assume that if I was flippant in this decision, this decision cost me more than I care to go into here – but the spiritual dividends far outweigh those costs.

I still struggle with some things. One of those things I struggle with happens to be the Real Presence that you accused me of not believing in – which I would still like an apology for. I do believe that teaching, recently I learned that the Catholic Church is not the only denomination that believes in the Real Presence. That is a topic for another thread.

Thank you for keeping me in your prayers, you are also in mine.

Drawmack

 

[Drawmack]

Note the construction of this sentence which you have quoted: Certain particularly grave sins…

What this means is that of the numerous particularly grave sins which exist, *certain *ones of them were put on the list for automatic excommunication. I will not address those of your comments which rely on this misunderstanding, but will add that exommunication is made public only when necessary, so stigma does not necessarily attach.

One is left to question why pulling a man’s hair is on the list while raping a 6 year old is not.

 

[St_Francis]

CCC 1129 – “The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation”

This looks very much like a rule to me.

Does the fact that people say that food is necessary for life make that a “rule”?

CCC1084 – “The sacraments are perceptible signs (words and actions) accessible to our human nature . By the action of Christ and the Holy Spirit they make present efficaciously the grace they signify”

The sacraments are not “an outward sign” that grace has been given. According to the CCC The sacraments “make present efficaciously the grace they signify”. According to the ordinary teachings of the Catholic Church the sacraments provide the grace, they are not a sign of it – that’s the difference between a sacrament and a sacramental.

“An outward sign” means a “perceptible sign (words and actions) accessible to our human nature.” Notice that the part of the CCC which you quoted also uses the word “sign.”

I assume that your second sentence (According to…) refers to the second sentence from the CCC. The sacraments are not the only way to receive grace, and the sacraments “signify” the grace–the grace is provided by Christ and the Holy Spirit.

I keep getting told this, but let me just point something out and see if you can clarify it for me (with documentation from Catholic teachings).

According to the definition of mortal sin, if one does not know it is a mortal sin that fact, in and of itself, makes the action not a mortal sin.

I would disagree. The fact that a person does not know it is a mortal sin, per se, a person not well-versed in Catholic moral theology, etc. does not make the sin committed not a mortal sin, because in that case, non-Catholics would not be able to commit mortal sins.

Certain actions simply are mortal sins. People commit them. The culpability or guilt for having committed that sin *may *be reduced by certain factors.

Mortal sin involves 1. grave matter, 2. full knowledge, and 3. full consent. A person can, without ever having heard the exact term mortal sin, commit and be fully culpable for a mortal sin. Remember that this is written on our hearts. So, a person can contemplate and act and understand that it is serious, that it is wrong, and still decide freely to do it. Knowledge or lack thereof of the *term *does not affect the guilt.

 

[St_Francis]

… Instead I had a priest suggest I leave the Catholic Church…

This was totally the wrong thing for that priest to do!!! I know that many priests are extremely busy, but he is responsible for your soul (to a certain extent). I am very sad that what you took as answers to your prayers have led you out of the Catholic Church, which seems to have happened fairly recently as the Brazil case happened not long ago.

 

[Drawmack]

This was totally the wrong thing for that priest to do!!! I know that many priests are extremely busy, but he is responsible for your soul (to a certain extent). I am very sad that what you took as answers to your prayers have led you out of the Catholic Church, which seems to have happened fairly recently as the Brazil case happened not long ago.

This week will be my fifth week attending a different Church.

 

[St_Francis]

This week will be my fifth week attending a different Church.

And your problems stem from the handling of the case in Brazil?

 

[WillieWonka]

Well, if they can read your post and mine, they can just as easily go to sites like this to
learn the truth.

These are the usual experts that I turn to, just for starters - (besides this site of
course, that we are on: www.catholic.com):

www.vatican.va -The official Vatican web site
www.usccb.org/nab/bible -Online Catholic Bible
www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm -Cathechism of the Catholic Church
www.all.org -Judie Brown
www.priestsforlife.org -Fr. Frank Pavone
www.hli.org -Fr. Thomas Euteneuer (International Priest for life)
www.fathercorapi.com -Fr. John Corapi (see my signature below)
www.ewtn.com -Eternal Word Television Network, founded by Mother Angelica, a Franciscian
www.omsoul.com -One more soul (for God)
www.cogforlife.org -Children of God for life
www.lifesitenews.com -Up to date daily news that helps understand what is going on in our world and what we can do to help.
www.zenit.org -The world seen from Rome…and last but not least
www.thepillkills.org

If you seriously want to know the truth, those sites, and I believe they all have search engines, ought to help.

Sure they could go to those sites. But Francis said, “it is quite clear to everyone that rape is a mortal sin, but not clear to everyone that abortion is,” [My boldface.]

So, if ignorance of the gavity of abortion can survive the internet, it seems similar ignorance about artificial birth control could also survive.

 

[Drawmack]

I would disagree. The fact that a person does not know it is a mortal sin, per se, a person not well-versed in Catholic moral theology, etc. does not make the sin committed not a mortal sin, because in that case, non-Catholics would not be able to commit mortal sins.

The CCC seems to disagree in paragraph 1859 – “Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.”

If one is truly unaware that something is a mortal sin, then it does not place them into a state of mortal sin to commit the act. However, is also states that feigned ignorance and hardness of heart are not an unawareness. I would interpret this to mean that one cannot say “I’m not Catholic so I didn’t know rape was a sin” – because everyone knows that rape is wrong – this is universally accepted by secular society. However, on finer points of mortal sin one might be able to truly, in their heart, not know something was a mortal sin. (I don’t want to venture a guess at an example on this one.) So your contention that non-Catholics cannot commit mortal sin is erroneous.

Certain actions simply are mortal sins. People commit them. The culpability or guilt for having committed that sin *may *be reduced by certain factors.

See the requirements above.

Mortal sin involves 1. grave matter, 2. full knowledge, and 3. full consent. A person can, without ever having heard the exact term mortal sin, commit and be fully culpable for a mortal sin. Remember that this is written on our hearts. So, a person can contemplate and act and understand that it is serious, that it is wrong, and still decide freely to do it. Knowledge or lack thereof of the *term *does not affect the guilt.

Yes, someone can commit a mortal sin without having heard the term mortal sin. But, it does require full knowledge and someone might not possess that – which means that it is not a mortal sin for them to do it.