How To Read and Understand The Bible

[EdOsiecki]

STEVE GC]

Forgive my intrusion on your discussion…

Hi SteveGC, you are forgiven! But next time spell my name correctly. i before e or is it e before the i after c? who cares! Osiecki It’s always good to hear from you. ED O.

 

[kepha1]

Hi again. Ed.

Hi NotWorthy, thanks for your reply. Your theology is wrong! The Holy Spirit does not go away, then come back in at confession, and go away again when you sin, and come back in at confession.

I agree.

Heb. 10:14-17, " because by one sacrifice He has made PERFECT FOREVER those who are being made holy.

Amen. “Being made holy” doesn’t sound like its instant to me, what’s your opinion?

15 “The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says: v16 “This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord, I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.” v17 Then he adds: " Their sins and LAWLESS ACTS I will remember no more.”

I like those verses too. But it refers to the ones predestined to grace, but not to glory.

*Heb. 9:12 - Christ’s sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God’s doing), salvation is not a certainty. While many Protestant churches believe in the theology of “once saved, always saved,” such a novel theory is not found in Scripture and has never been taught by the Church. *

Eph. 1:5 - Paul teaches that God “predestined” us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ. “Predestination” means that God knows what we will do before we do it (it does not mean that God determines what we do; otherwise, we would have no freewill). Predestination is taken from the Greek word “prooridzo” which means to know or declare in advance by God’s foreknowledge. See, for example, 1 Peter 1:2 where Peter writes about the “elect according to the foreknowledge of God.” The terms “predestination” and “the elect” always refer to God’s knowledge (not human knowledge) because God is outside of time (and humans cannot predict the future). There are two types of “predestination,” to grace and to glory. In this verse, Paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian.

*1 Pet. 1:1-2 – Paul teaches about being destined by God for obedience to Christ. This is another example of predestination to grace. But there is also predestination to glory. *
*Rom. 8:29-30 – Paul also writes that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Now Paul is writing about predestination to glory, which means not only becoming a faithful Christian during our lives, but persevering to the end by conforming our will to Christ’s will. *

*1 Cor. 15:49 – Paul writes that we are conformed in His image at the resurrection, when we shall bear the image of the man of heaven. These are the people who were predestined to glory. *

*Rev. 3:5 – Jesus warns that He can blot out the names that are in the book of life. This refers to those currently, not ultimately, justified (those who are predestined to grace, but not to glory). *

*Eph. 1:5; 1 Peter 1:2; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Cor. 15:49 - therefore, predestination is either to grace (which we could lose) or to glory (which we cannot lose). As alluded to above, some non-Catholics confuse the definition of “predestination” (which means God knows what we will do before we do it) and “predetermination” (the erroneous belief that God determines what we will do). But God does not author evil. We choose evil by our own freewill. *
*Ezek. 18:23-24, 32 - God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Our death is our freewill, failing to respond to His grace. God does not predetermine certain people to hell. God also does not predetermine certain “elect” people to heaven. We all, as God’s children, have been given the grace we need to be saved, but we can decide to reject God’s grace. *

If you want more ammo to refute OSAS, go here:
scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html#salvation-III

 

[SteveGC]

STEVE GC] Hi SteveGC, you are forgiven! But next time spell my name correctly. i before e or is it e before the i after c? who cares! Osiecki It’s always good to hear from you. ED O.

LOL. Sorry about the misspell.

One of my favorite comedians jokes about this rule. When asked what the “I before E rule” is, he jokingly responds “I before E…always?.” His teacher then corrects him with a rule that makes about as much sense as the real rule: “No, it’s i before e except after c, or when sounding like ay as in neighbor or weigh, and on weekends, and holidays, and all throughout May, and you’ll always be wrong, no matter what you say!” To which the comedian responds “Oh. That’s a hard rule.” --anyway, I always thought that was funny.

Thanks, Ed. Wondering if you’d still like to comment on NotWorthy’s statement, to which I added by stating the following…

You first say that the Spirit convicts all believers in their sin and moves them to repentance, which suggests that you are saying a believer will always repent because they are already saved…then you say that the believer can refuse to respond to this conviction of the Spirit and will “return to his vomit” which is a clear reference to the loss of salvation. NW is wondering what you actually believe…so am I.

I’m pretty sure you believe that believers are always saved, even if they sin, so can you clarify that position given your 2 Peter 2 quote? Thanks again.

 

[Ginger2]

Ed,

Have we talked about OSAS, before?

My feeling on this is:

As Catholics define it stating a person can be Baptized into the church and later turn away and worship satan, or money or nothing at all, OSAS is a false doctrine. I agree with RC on this.

But I have never heard a Protestant deny this fact.

Therefore, the doctrine of OSAS, which Catholics say is a Protestant doctrine, is a non-existent doctrine.

After researching the history to see where this idea came from, I am convinced Catholics either misunderstood a statement or intentionally distorted a statement by ML, thus creating the idea Protestants adhere to such a false doctrine.

The result of this false claim being made repeatedly over hundreds of years is Protestants believing it must be a real doctrine taught by ML. This has led Protestants to try to define it, thereby creating a doctrine consistent with Scriptures and affirming the impression to Catholics that it is a real doctrine created by ML.

We are debating too different ideas with Catholics as tho we are talking about the same thing. We can never come to any understanding this way, and the Catholics will not accept our definitions and explanations of OSAS, because they are stuck in there own false belief of what it means - which is contrary to Scriptures.

John 10:27-28
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

OSAS to to me refers to God’s Omniscience. God has perfect foreknowledge and understanding of the person’s heart.

Example:

Let’s suppose two men, brothers, are Baptized today and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior. The brothers drive away and are in a fatal crash killing them both instantly.

As human being we will all believe on faith that the two brothers went to heaven, correct?

What Catholics seem to miss is that God knows what is in their hearts. God would know if the brothers had lived and ended up paralyzed, if one or both would have turned away.

So are they saved because the died before the turned? Or are they saved because God knows that they would have remain faithful if they had lived?

Once you are saved you are saved forever. But we can’t tell the saved from the unsaved - only God can.

Ginger

 

[Ginger2]

I’m pretty sure you believe that believers are always saved, even if they sin, so can you clarify that position given your 2 Peter 2 quote? Thanks again.

I know this question is directed toward Ed, but I have to say…

Yes. Absolutely.

I am not saved one minute and damned to hell the next if I smash my hand with a hammer and curse and then instantly die from a drive by shooting.

If I was saved before I swore I am still saved after - even if I die before I have a chance to ask God for forgiveness because God knows my heart and my salvation is not dependent upon me, but Christ Jesus.

Ginger

 

[Ginger2]

Then you have to explain John 15, where Jesus admonished the Apostles to abide in Him. He who doesn’t abide in him will be pruned away and thrown into the fire. It seems like someone can lose their salvation.

I love this example!!!

First it talks about the saved:
Jhn 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. “Taken away” means “lifted up”

If you understood about vineyards you would know that sometimes branches fall down in the mud and they won’t bare fruit. That vine keeper doesn’t cut them off and throw them away - one branch is much too valuable to him. Instead he lifts it up, washes it off and reties it so that it can bare fruit. Sometimes he prunes it to improve it.

The second part talks about the unsaved: Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

So you see, this is not talking about someone losing his salvation. It is talking about what happens to those who are not in Jesus.

The saved Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he lifts up:

He cares for us even when we fall short.

 

[Ginger2]

Then you have to explain John 15, where Jesus admonished the Apostles to abide in Him. He who doesn’t abide in him will be pruned away and thrown into the fire. It seems like someone can lose their salvation.

I love this example!!!

First it talks about the saved:

15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away,

“takes away” is a misleading translation. A better translation would be “lifts up”.
]If you understood about vineyards you would know that sometimes branches fall down in the mud and they won’t bare fruit. The vine keeper doesn’t cut them off and throw them away - one branch is much too valuable to him. Instead, he lifts it up, washes it off and reties it so that it can bare fruit.

and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

that part is pretty much self-explanatory.

3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

Jesus is talking about wanting the Apostles to bear fruit for the kingdom of God and explaining this cannot be done on their own , but only through God can they bear good fruit.

Now we see Jesus turn from discussing the Apostles to those who are not saved:

6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. 9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.

There is nothing here that indicates the Apostles could lose their salvation but rather, this talks about how they can be successful in fulfilling their mission in Christ.

Ginger

 

[NotWorthy]

] .

/QUOTE] Hi NotWorthy, When I got saved by believing the gospel and sometime later was baptized, I received the Holy Spirit that doesn’t come and goes as you say yours does. Eph1:13, “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the Word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in Him with a SEAL the promised Holy Spirit. v14 who is a deposit QUARANTEEING our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s POSSESSION to the praise of His glory.” You see! I’m God’s possession! As the saying goes," it’s over Jesus’ dead body that He’ll ever let the devil have me." Jesus paid a very dear price to purchase/reedem me by HIs BLOOD. ED O.

But, Ed. We are not guaranteed our inheritance, unless we participate!

As you referred, no one can snatch me from the hand of God. I believe that, AMEN!

… But nowhere in Scripture does it say we can’t walk away from the Hand of God. We willingly leave Him when we mortally sin. That’s why we go to confession, my brother. THAT’S why God gave the Apostles the authority to forgive our sins in His Name.

On a side note: Yesterday, I was blessed to go to Confession. The joy I received when the priest says, “I absolve you of your sins in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”… Those words are like music to my ears. And the counseling I got from Fr. Peter.

Ed, you have no idea what you are missing. As I dwell on that sacrament yesterday, your words seem like little more than the musings of a child.

 

[NotWorthy]

I love this example!!!

First it talks about the saved:

15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away,

“takes away” is a misleading translation. A better translation would be “lifts up”.
]If you understood about vineyards you would know that sometimes branches fall down in the mud and they won’t bare fruit. The vine keeper doesn’t cut them off and throw them away - one branch is much too valuable to him. Instead, he lifts it up, washes it off and reties it so that it can bare fruit.

and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

that part is pretty much self-explanatory.

3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

Jesus is talking about wanting the Apostles to bear fruit for the kingdom of God and explaining this cannot be done on their own , but only through God can they bear good fruit.

Now we see Jesus turn from discussing the Apostles to those who are not saved:

6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. 9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.

There is nothing here that indicates the Apostles could lose their salvation but rather, this talks about how they can be successful in fulfilling their mission in Christ.

Ginger

How does Jesus indicate that He has switched from the Apostles to everybody. Where’s the change in subject?

Also, have you ever wondered that Jesus uses the term “Abide in Me” twice in John’s Gospel. Once, in the future tense when speaking of “eating His Flesh…”, and then in the Last Supper, where we know he offered up His Flesh. But this time, its in the present tense.

Also, regarding abiding in Him. How can we still have eternal life if we’ve committing a “sin that is deadly”?

 

[Ginger2]

How does Jesus indicate that He has switched from the Apostles to everybody. Where’s the change in subject?

Read the passage for crying out loud. How can you not see Jesus is talking about two different groups of people???

2
He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and everyone that does he prunes 3 so that it bears more fruit.
3
You are already pruned because of the word that I spoke to you.
4
Abide in me, **as I abide in you. **

6 If anyone does not abide in me, he shall be cast outside…into the fire"

Notice the difference? Verse 6 talks those who do not abide in Jesus, but does not say Jesus will stop abiding in them because it doesn’t say Jesus abided in them to begin with.

First he talks of those who are abiding in him and affirms he abides and will continue to abide in them even when they are in the dirt and not bearing fruit.

Then he speaks of those who do no abide in him and makes no mention that he ever did or will abide in them.

Ginger

 

[NotWorthy]

Read the passage for crying out loud. How can you not see Jesus is talking about two different groups of people???

2
He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and everyone that does he prunes 3 so that it bears more fruit.
3
You are already pruned because of the word that I spoke to you.
4
Abide in me, **as I abide in you. **

6 If anyone does not abide in me, he shall be cast outside…into the fire"

Notice the difference? Verse 6 talks those who do not abide in Jesus, but does not say Jesus will stop abiding in them because it doesn’t say Jesus abided in them to begin with.

First he talks of those who are abiding in him and affirms he abides and will continue to abide in them even when they are in the dirt and not bearing fruit.

Then he speaks of those who do no abide in him and makes no mention that he ever did or will abide in them.

Ginger

For crying out loud? For crying out loud? Patience, dear Ginger.

Jesus switches from first person to third person plural throughout John 15. And the “remain in me” is an admonishment, not a statement of fact, like “you will remain in me”. You acted like the first 5 verses were addressed to the Apostles, and then automatically switched to all the faithful. I couldn’t tell where you got that “fact” from. If I’m understanding you incorrectly, than my apologies, but please don’t lose patience.

We are brothers and sisters and Christ, you know!

And, as I hinted at earlier. Jesus first uses “abides in Me” when talking of the Eucharist in John 6. At the Last Supper, after the first Eucharistic banquet, Jesus now speaks of “abide in Me” in the present sense. Hmmm…

BTW, where do you get the assertion that verse 2 is better interpreted as “is lifted up”, for that totally changes the meaning of the phrase.

 

[Ginger2]

John 15. And the “remain in me” is an admonishment, not a statement of fact, like “you will remain in me”. You acted like the first 5 verses were addressed to the Apostles, and then automatically switched to all the faithful. I couldn’t tell where you got that “fact” from. If I’m understanding you incorrectly, than my apologies, but please don’t lose patience.

Yes, you do misunderstand. Jesus is addressing all these verse to the Apostles, but he talks about the Apostles, and the about others. This should be clear when he says the Apostles are already pruned because of the word that I spoke to you. Abide in me, as I abide in you.
Then he tells the Apostles
6 If anyone does not abide in me, he shall be cast outside…into the fire"

Jesus does not say “If [you do] not abide in me, [you]shall be cast outside…into the fire”

Jesus switches from 2nd person “you” to 3rd person “he”.

Sorry for sounding so impatient and grumpy. I had an accident and not feeling the best this morning. :crutches:

 

[EdOsiecki]

Quoted by NotWorthy
Here a believer sins and returns to his own vomit. How can a believer reject the Holy Spirit? If he rejects the Holy Spirit, then he’s not a believer.

Hi Not Worthy, when you make such an asinine statement, I’m wondering, are you a first time reader of the Bible??? Of course not! Let me explain. 2 Pet2:19,"-----for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him.( natural sinful man) v20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ ( got saved ) and are again (back to sinful man and willfully rejecting Christ’s sacrifice) entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning (before he got saved) v21 It would have been better for them not to have known (never accepted God’s free gift of salvation) the way of righteousness (being saved), than to have known (accepted salvation) and then to turn their backs ( then rejecting salvation) on the sacred command that was passed on to them. v22 Of them the proverbs are true: A dog returns to its vomit,----" Emphasis added so that you may understand this Scripture. ED O

 

[SteveGC]

Hi Not Worthy, when you make such an asinine statement, I’m wondering, are you a first time reader of the Bible??? Of course not! Let me explain. 2 Pet2:19,"-----for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him.( natural sinful man) v20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ ( got saved ) and are again (back to sinful man and willfully rejecting Christ’s sacrifice) entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning (before he got saved) v21 It would have been better for them not to have known (never accepted God’s free gift of salvation) the way of righteousness (being saved), than to have known (accepted salvation) and then to turn their backs ( then rejecting salvation) on the sacred command that was passed on to them. v22 Of them the proverbs are true: A dog returns to its vomit,----" Emphasis added so that you may understand this Scripture. ED O

I must be “asinine” too, Ed. This still sounds like you believe in the possibility that a believer who was once saved, can lose that salvation. When he said, “How can a believer reject the Holy Spirit? If he rejects the Holy Spirit, then he’s not a believer”, NotWorthy was making somewhat of a sarcastic comment, I think, which perhaps confused you…he was asking you how is it that you believe in once saved - always saved, but then also believe that a believer can reject the Spirit. Do you believe a believer can fall away and lose salvation or not? He hope you do, because we would be in agreement with you…and this post, and the previous ones, suggest that you do believe this.

Set the record straight for us asinine folks, will ya?

 

[SteveGC]

I know this question is directed toward Ed, but I have to say…

Yes. Absolutely.

I am not saved one minute and damned to hell the next if I smash my hand with a hammer and curse and then instantly die from a drive by shooting. If I was saved before I swore I am still saved after

I suppose if you’d like to reduce everything down to the smallest of venial sins and then argue that the Church must teach us that this is how quickly you can lose salvation and be damned to hell, then you’ll win that strawman argument. Fortunately the Church doesn’t teach this. What is taught is that salvation is not a one-time event in our life, but rather a process…that God indeed knows our heart and is the final judge, but that that judgment comes at the end, not in the middle, of the story of our lives. And since we retain free will even as the Spirit is infused within us, our lifelong response to grace and growth in the faith is necessary if God’s free gift of salvation is to be efficacious for us when we breathe our last. And so, if we little by little fall away, giving in to small sins then larger sins, failing to nurture and respond to the grace He offers, there may easily come a time in our lives where our rejection of Him is greater than our acceptance of Him…sufficiently to the point that as we pass into judgment after death, Christ may look at us, not see Himself in our reflection, and proclaim “I do not know you”.

Ginger2:

even if I die before I have a chance to ask God for forgiveness because God knows my heart and my salvation is not dependent upon me, but Christ Jesus.

This is primarily talking about God’s Mercy, not the doctrine regarding salvation, which does indeed partly depend on you…if it doesn’t depend on people at least partly, then all will undoubtedly be saved, which we know is not true. This doesn’t diminish the fact that the power and source of all salvation is Christ alone…specifically the Grace of God…but we do indeed play a critical role in the application of that free gift of salvation. If we don’t apply it (respond to it), we don’t get it. He doesn’t force it on anyone. You would even agree to this…so our differences revolve around how long we have to respond to it. For you, it’s once. For Catholics, it’s lifelong. Either way, Grace is not diminished, nor is Christ’s once-for-all sacrifice.

 

[SteveGC]

Ed,

Have we talked about OSAS, before?

My feeling on this is:

As Catholics define it stating a person can be Baptized into the church and later turn away and worship satan, or money or nothing at all, OSAS is a false doctrine. I agree with RC on this.

But I have never heard a Protestant deny this fact.

Therefore, the doctrine of OSAS, which Catholics say is a Protestant doctrine, is a non-existent doctrine.

After researching the history to see where this idea came from, I am convinced Catholics either misunderstood a statement or intentionally distorted a statement by ML, thus creating the idea Protestants adhere to such a false doctrine.

The result of this false claim being made repeatedly over hundreds of years is Protestants believing it must be a real doctrine taught by ML. This has led Protestants to try to define it, thereby creating a doctrine consistent with Scriptures and affirming the impression to Catholics that it is a real doctrine created by ML.

We are debating too different ideas with Catholics as tho we are talking about the same thing. We can never come to any understanding this way, and the Catholics will not accept our definitions and explanations of OSAS, because they are stuck in there own false belief of what it means - which is contrary to Scriptures.

John 10:27-28
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

OSAS to to me refers to God’s Omniscience. God has perfect foreknowledge and understanding of the person’s heart.

Example:

Let’s suppose two men, brothers, are Baptized today and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior. The brothers drive away and are in a fatal crash killing them both instantly.

As human being we will all believe on faith that the two brothers went to heaven, correct?

What Catholics seem to miss is that God knows what is in their hearts. God would know if the brothers had lived and ended up paralyzed, if one or both would have turned away.

So are they saved because the died before the turned? Or are they saved because God knows that they would have remain faithful if they had lived?

Once you are saved you are saved forever. But we can’t tell the saved from the unsaved - only God can.

Ginger

Well, this to me sort of confuses the issue of OSAS. You seem to equate it with Omniscience and predestination and God’s Mercy, but I’m not so sure that’s an accurate characterization.

I’m not enough of a participator in Lutheran history to be able to say where it was born, but my understanding was that Luther believed that one with faith could theoretically sin in the most grievious of ways and that wickedness would not allow them to fall…their destiny would always be secure in heaven. But again, I don’t know enough about his books and other documents to state that with certainty.

To me, the issue revolves around what salvation really is, and whether or not it is a before-death proclamation of inevitable delivery unto heaven when a person first believes. If you believe it is, then you have the first prerequisite needed for OSAS (specifically the “OS”)…the only thing remaining is whether or not you believe that you can later turn from this gift and walk away (the “AS”). If you believe you can’t or won’t…then OSAS is born in you. I suppose it doesn’t really matter where the “doctrine” was born…what matters is if it is sound or not. I choose “not”. Neither the OS, nor the AS are accurate teachings…hence OSAS falls flat.

 

[NotWorthy]

Yes, you do misunderstand. Jesus is addressing all these verse to the Apostles, but he talks about the Apostles, and the about others. This should be clear when he says the Apostles are already pruned because of the word that I spoke to you. Abide in me, as I abide in you.
Then he tells the Apostles
6 If anyone does not abide in me, he shall be cast outside…into the fire"

Jesus does not say “If [you do] not abide in me, [you]shall be cast outside…into the fire”

Jesus switches from 2nd person “you” to 3rd person “he”.

Sorry for sounding so impatient and grumpy. I had an accident and not feeling the best this morning. :crutches:

Sorry about your accident. I was bed-ridden for 10 weeks three years ago with two broken legs. So I can relate. I hope you are all right.

But, Jesus admonishes the Apostles to abide in him. Then He says, if anybody (Apostles or anyone) doesn’t abide in Him, then he will be cast out.

Jesus does not say that the Apostles will abide in Him, He is advising them to. For instance, is Judas still on the scene, or has he vacated the premises.

 

[Ginger2]

Well, this to me sort of confuses the issue of OSAS. You seem to equate it with Omniscience and predestination and God’s Mercy, but I’m not so sure that’s an accurate characterization.

Pardon me if I think that statement is hilarious.

Catholics insist Protestants have a man-made doctrine called "Once Saved, Always Saved. Yet, they don’t think Protestants know what it means???
**
If I believe in something, I’m certain I know what it is I believe.**

 

[Ginger2]

For instance, is Judas still on the scene, or has he vacated the premises.

Judas was never saved to begin with as shown in John 6:70 “Then Jesus replied, ‘Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!’”

Jesus referred to Judas as a devil before Judas even knew he would betray Jesus!

Ginger

 

[NotWorthy]

Hi Not Worthy, when you make such an asinine statement,I’m wondering, are you a first time reader of the Bible???

Ed, when you make such an asinine statement, I wonder if you are a Christian.

Of course not! Let me explain. 2 Pet2:19,"-----for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him.( natural sinful man) v20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ ( got saved ) and are again (back to sinful man and willfully rejecting Christ’s sacrifice) entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning (before he got saved) v21 It would have been better for them not to have known (never accepted God’s free gift of salvation) the way of righteousness (being saved), than to have known (accepted salvation) and then to turn their backs ( then rejecting salvation) on the sacred command that was passed on to them. v22 Of them the proverbs are true: A dog returns to its vomit,----" Emphasis added so that you may understand this Scripture. ED O

Ed, condescension does not become you. Just as you have trouble understanding Scripture, e.g. John 20:20-23, I may have trouble understanding this verse, at least in the way you intpret it.

Here’s what St. Gregory the Great says about it (Regulae pastoraqlis liber, 3,30) - “… A person who weeps for his sin and yet does not give it up becomes guilty of a greater fault: because he scorns the forgiveness which he could obtain by weeping, and then wallows in the more. When, despite his tears, he prevents his life being cleansed, then in the sight of God, he causes those very tears to be stained.”

This is why I go to confession, my brother, and try to mend my ways.