What about Leviticus 5?
How about Matthew 3?:
But I wish to ask you, Ed, how would an Apostle know what sins NOT to forgive unless they were confessed. Do you see anywhere in the New Testaments where the Apostles are given the charism of ESP, or would they need to hear the sins in order to determine “To forgive, or not to forgive”.
Hi NotWorthy, In Leviticus 5 you underline,“then whoever is guilty in any of these cases shall confess the sin he has incurred” ------ Your error here is that it does not say to confess to a priest. God never gave priests that permission to hear confessions. God was very specific as to what their duties were. You also underlined, “The priest shall then make atonement for his sin.” Your error here is you failed to underline the animal that’s being sacrificed (blood) is what made the atonement Leviticus 17:11. The priest only killed it. The person confessed to God, while the priest offered the animal for the atonement.
You don’t think that John was standing in the water hearing confessions as he baptized do you? They acknowledged their sins to God.
QUOTE]Here’s where your MAJOR ERROR is. Catholics misinterpret John 20:23 It does not speak about personal confessions, it speaks about rejecting the gospel then their sins are not forgiven. ED O.
You’ve inserted “To God” twice now. Where does it say they confessed “To God” or they acknowledged their sins “To God”?
Where does it speak of “rejecting the Gospel”. The words clearly say, “The sins you forgive, they are forgiven. The sins you retain, they are retained”. I don’t know of any translation that says, “Those who accept the Gospel, their sins are forgiven. Those who reject the Gospel, their sins are retained”.
After going back and I read John’s 20:21-23 account and compared that same meeting with Lukes account starting at 24:13 to the end of that chapter, there are many more disciples there than only the Eleven. ED O.
If nowhere in the Bible does God give priests permission to hear confessions, then to whom else would the people be confessing their sins too but to God.----- Pslams 32:5, states, "I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the Lord” -------- Jesus teaches His disciples to confess sins to God Mat 6:9
Your problem here is that you try to make a dogma from one verse and ignore the many other verses that contradicts what you claim.------ Exp. Mark 16:16" whoever believes (gospel) and is baptized is saved". (sins are forgiven) “but whoever does not believe (gospel) will be condemned” (sin not forgiven) One can’t be saved and have sins.-------- Why would anyone confess sins to a priest when the Bible is very clear 1 John 1:9 states, “If we confess our sins HE is faithful to forgive us.” The “HE” here is by no means a priest!
Can you give me examples of sins that are not forgiven when Mark 3:28-29 states," I tell you the truth, ALL the SINS and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. v29 But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of eternal sin."-------The “ALL” here is a superlative. ----- Having said that can you tell me what sins are not to be forgiven? ED O.I agree that Jesus doesn’t spell out confession. What Jesus did is give the Church, that He left, the authority to forgive and retain sins. How that Church decides to do it He left up to Her… of course with a little guidance from the Holy Spirit, the Advocate!
And I don’t deny that. But I do assert that the Apostles were there. We know that there were at least 2 disciples in addition to ten of the Eleven Apostles.
And Ed, your problem is you deny that Jesus gave the Apostle authority to withhold the forgiveness of sins.
***My dear friend Ed,
Hi NotWorthy, As per Lukes account, at that meeting where the two persons (Cleopas and the other) plus other disciples and the apostles a group in all. -------Where then in John’s account do you find that Jesus had singled out the apostles and gave only them the authority to forgive sins? Jesus breathed on them (who? it doesn’t say) to receive the Holy Spirit and told them (who? it doesn’t say) that He’s sending them (who? it doesn’t say) out as the Father sent Him.-------In order for you to establish the Penance doctrine (priests forgives sins) exclusive to only the Catholic church, you then have to ASSUME that it was only the apostles.-------- Yet! there are so many Scriptures that say.------ Mark 2:6, “------For only God can forgive sins.” This verse, alone, contradicts your understanding of John 20 and also rebukes your understanding of Leviticus 5 too! ED O.
No, I don’t understand your point. Why does it need to be only Apostles. The Disciples would have joined the Church as well. The Apostles weren’t the only leaders of the early Church.
I want to revisit this question, now that I have a little more time.
They:
your wisdom simply exceeds my ability to comprehend.
Hi Pat, I’ve looked in various dictionaries and the Catholic encyclopedia but I can’t find any reference to “deciple.” ----- However in all the dictionaries and the Catholic encyclopedia they speak of “disciples.” ------- From the Latin (discipulus = student) disciple is the general term for any student or follower of a particular teacher. In the N.T. the disciples are understood more specifically as the seventy-two who received instructions from Jesus. Yet, in one case John 13:23 John was singled out as the “Beloved Disciple” ED O.
Hi NotWorthy, One can acknowledge that he/she is a sinner but that does not mean he/she confessed their personal sins.------- Why would any Jew confess their personal sins to John when they knew that only God forgave sins and they been confessing their personal sins to God? Mk 2:6 “------ For only God forgives sins.” ------- Who gave John the authority to hear confessions? ------ He was called to pave the way for Christ “repent”. ------ A turning to God.-----That’s why He would not baptize some Pharisees and Sadducees and sent them on their way and told them to first show their repentance by doing some good deeds. ED O.
Because this is what you said on post 360
Yes, one can. But then they would be coming to John to acknowledge their sinfulness.
I don’t know. Why would any Jew come to John to be baptized? Baptisms were performed by the Jewish priests, not some nut-job out in the wildnerness.
And that’s irrelevant.
I’m saying that the Church has the authority to determine who and who could not forgive sins.
Sounds more like acts of repentance NOT penance.
And this is irrelevant, for you are stating the obvious. I’m wondering if you work for Microsoft, Dean, for although your answer is right, it doesn’t address the problem!
Acknowledged for certain… to John? we can only speculate… When we preach the gospel message with Law then grace we don’t seek oral confession rather a broken and contrite heart is what is important…And this is irrelevant, for you are stating the obvious. I’m wondering if you work for Microsoft, Dean, for although your answer is right, it doesn’t address the problem!
The question at hand is, did the people who came to John, and were baptized by him, and “acknowledged their sins” confess to John?