How To Read and Understand The Bible

[NotWorthy]

Acknowledged for certain… to John? we can only speculate… When we preach the gospel message with Law then grace we don’t seek oral confession rather a broken and contrite heart is what is important…

All I know is…

The came to John.
They were baptized.
And they acknowledged their sins.

It would seem that if they acknowledged their sins to God alone, then this last portion should be separated from the first two. They are not.

It would be like saying, “Blessed are you Simon BarJonah … and I say, You are Rock and upon this Rock.…” and claiming that the two rocks are different rocks!

Grammatically, that just doesn’t make sense!

 

[PJM]

=EdOsiecki;6322147]Hi Pat, I’ve looked in various dictionaries and the Catholic encyclopedia but I can’t find any reference to “deciple.” ----- However in all the dictionaries and the Catholic encyclopedia they speak of “disciples.” ------- From the Latin (discipulus = student) disciple is the general term for any student or follower of a particular teacher. In the N.T. the disciples are understood more specifically as the seventy-two who received instructions from Jesus. Yet, in one case John 13:23 John was singled out as the “Beloved Disciple” ED O.

Hi Ed,

The “Beloved Deciple” is of course Saint John, Apostle and author of the Forth Gospel. Yet another bit of evidence that the tern can at times be applied to the Apostles.

The dictionary defination I provided is from Father John A. Hardon’s S.J. “Catholic Dictionary.” May he rest in peace. Father was my mentor and friend for a number of years [far to short], a theologian [some claim perhaps the best of the 20th Century?] and philosopher; and the best example of Catholism I have known. It can be GOOGLED.

At the time of Jesus it was comon that men had more than one name; [Simom / Peter, Jude /Thadius for example], similary terms like “Brother” [actual blood relative brother and or members of a common community] and “deciple” meaning "follower, and also applied to the Apostles."There are likely other examples but the old head is stuck in nuteral tonight.

There is NO doubt in Objective reading of John 20:20-23 to whom the mandate and authority had been given. The Bishops and priest of His new Church. Would God logically just give such authority at random? Certainly not.

Love and prayers,
Pat

 

[PJM]

Posted by NotWorthy … POST #384
And I don’t deny that. But I do assert that the Apostles were there. We know that there were at least 2 disciples in addition to ten of the Eleven Apostles.

What’s your point?

=EdOsiecki;Hi NotWorthy, As per Lukes account, at that meeting where the two persons (Cleopas and the other) plus other disciples and the apostles a group in all. -------Where then in John’s account do you find that Jesus had singled out the apostles and gave only them the authority to forgive sins? Jesus breathed on them (who? it doesn’t say) to receive the Holy Spirit and told them (who? it doesn’t say) that He’s sending them (who? it doesn’t say) out as the Father sent Him.-------In order for you to establish the Penance doctrine (priests forgives sins) exclusive to only the Catholic church, you then have to ASSUME that it was only the apostles.-------- Yet! there are so many Scriptures that say.------ Mark 2:6, “------For only God can forgive sins.” This verse, alone, contradicts your understanding of John 20 and also rebukes your understanding of Leviticus 5 too! ED O.

Ed, the problem here seems to be lack,of PROPER understanding of the Catholic Sacrament of Confession an the actual role of the preist.

John.20 Verses 20 to 23 "When he [JESUS] had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. **As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” **And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

**1. **The CC agrees with you in entirety that ONLY GOD CAN FORGIVE SINS!

2. The role of the priest is NOT to fogive the sins, rather to determine whose sins, and which sins can and should be forgiven.

3. The words of the priest in Confession are " I ABSOLVE YOU FROM YOUR SINS IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT." He never say’s “I forgive you your sins!”

4. The precise role of the priest is 1. to determine if true contrition is present. 2. To hear from the pentent the sins, number and circumstances. 3. to insure an attitude exist not to commit the same sin again. [WITH GOD’S HELP] Both sorrow and contrition are necessary. 4 to council the pentenant how they might avoid the sin in the furture. 5 If sorrow and contrition are present, to grant absolutation in the name of the Trinity [where the actual forgiveness takes place] and to issue a Pennance that is approiate and must be completed B4 the forgivenes takes effect

** 6** This allows the penitent to know with 100% certainty that there sins have been forgiven BY GOD.

5. Thus it is the mandated role of the priest to determine who’s sins shall or shall-NOT be forgiven; and GOD IS OBLIGATED TO ACCEPT THE DECISION OF HIS PRIEST**.[MT.16;18-19]**. And it remains God’s role to actually do and effect the forgiveness of sins!

Love and prayers,

Pat

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by NotWorthy
Look at the text:
They:

1. We out to him
2. were baptized by him
3. AS they acknowledged their sins.

That sounds suspiciously like the Sacrament of Penance.

Astute observation!

Here’s the differences [plural].

1. Baptism is the result of faith; a FREE gift from God. Its effects are:
   
   Being perfected by not only the removal of ALL sins; but also the hidden [must be paid back consequences of ALL those sins. Both Miortal and veniel; from date of birth to time of Baptism.
   
   Because of the enormity of this gift, it has a “sacramental seal” a permnent sign so it cannot ever be repeated in this exact form again.
   
   Its a ONE time Gift.

[COLOR=“Red”] Any sins [and all sins] committed after ones Baptism are not covered by this Sacrament. Thus **the need **and Instituation of the Sacrament of Confesion by Christ. John 20:20-23.

Were one to die immediately after being Baptized such a person who go directly to heaven.

Membership to the ONLY Church, and ONLY faith [set of specific beliefs and practices] assured as the singular TRUTH, on all matters of Faith and Morals,  by Jesus, the Holy Spirit and through them by God the Father. One beomes a member of the One True Church of God!

Humanity as understood by Christ and His Church is made up of sinners.

**1John.1 Verses 8 to 10 **“If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

** 1John.5 Verses 16 to 17**"If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. "

***Unrepented, unConfessed Mortal sin WIll condem oneself to Hell for Eternity. *** Thus the need for and creation by Christ of the Catholic Sacrament of Confession. [KNOWN FORGIVENESS!]

So we are speaking of the removal of sins **Before and up to Baptism **AND as a SEPERATE issue to be delt with; sins committed AFTER one has already been Baptized and ued and fully applied these graces nd merits of the gift from God.

Love and prayers,
Pat

 

[EdOsiecki]

To PJM and NotWorthy
Let’s not get off the track of what John 20:21-23 means by trying to figure out whether John the Baptist heard confessions or not.

In John 20:21-23 I’m asking both of you what kind of sins will not be forgiven when Mark 3:28 states, “I tell you the truth, ALL the SINS and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them v29 but whoever blasphemies against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven.”

I take this to mean that there is only ONE sin that can’t be forgiven. ED O.

 

[NotWorthy]

To PJM and NotWorthy
Let’s not get off the track of what John 20:21-23 means by trying to figure out whether John the Baptist heard confessions or not.

In John 20:21-23 I’m asking both of you what kind of sins will not be forgiven when Mark 3:28 states, “I tell you the truth, ALL the SINS and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them v29 but whoever blasphemies against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven.”

I take this to mean that there is only ONE sin that can’t be forgiven. ED O.

So we have a conundrum, eh?

All sins and all blasphemies will be forgiven. Does this mean that
a) every sin and blasphemy ever committed will be forgiven, other than sins against the Holy Spirit?
b) there is not a sin or blasphemy that isn’t forgivable, except for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?

We know A) is not true. And B) coincides with John 20:21-23. There’s not a sin that is not forgivable, but we also know that a sinner has to be repentant. As PJM indicated, that is the role the priest takes.

I don’t see any problem with these two verses. Perhaps you have an option C).

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by NotWorthy
So we have a conundrum, eh?

All sins and all blasphemies will be forgiven. Does this mean that
a) every sin and blasphemy ever committed will be forgiven, other than sins against the Holy Spirit?
b) there is not a sin or blasphemy that isn’t forgivable, except for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?

We know A) is not true. And B) coincides with John 20:21-23. There’s not a sin that is not forgivable, but we also know that a sinner has to be repentant. As PJM indicated, that is the role the priest takes.

Why should a priest be involved in this matter at all? Can’t I confess my sins to God without the help of a priest as the Bible tells me to do? ED O.

 

[NotWorthy]

Why should a priest be involved in this matter at all? Can’t I confess my sins to God without the help of a priest as the Bible tells me to do? ED O.

In Leviticus, why coldn’t the penitent simply sacrifice the animal himself? Why was a priest necessary to make atonement?

I don’t know and don’t care.

What I do know is that Jesus gave the Apostles (and Disciples) the authority to forgive and retain sins IN HIS NAME.

Who am I to question the wisdom of this action?

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by NotWorthy
In Leviticus, why coldn’t the penitent simply sacrifice the animal himself? Why was a priest necessary to make atonement?

I don’t know and don’t care.

What I do know is that Jesus gave the Apostles (and Disciples) the authority to forgive and retain sins IN HIS NAME.

Who am I to question the wisdom of this action?

In reference to Leviticus above, in the O.T. God ordained the priesthood and gave them very specific rules and duties to follow including what to wear. I see no such thing in the N. T.

In reference to the apostles/disciples forgiving sins in HIS NAME…

You state here the forgiveness of sins. ------ Then someone else says that the priest
only .absolves sins? ------ What’s going on here? ------- Didn’t Jesus specifically say forgive sins? ------- So which is it? ED O.

 

[NotWorthy]

In reference to Leviticus above, in the O.T. God ordained the priesthood and gave them very specific rules and duties to follow including what to wear. I see no such thing in the N. T.

But you see Jesus giving the Apostles (and Disciples) the authority to forgive sins, and yet you overlook it. Also, you admit that the priest is participating in the atonement. God could easily forgive the Jew, but He wished the priest to take an active part in the role. Sound familiar?

In reference to the apostles/disciples forgiving sins in HIS NAME…

You state here the forgiveness of sins. ------ Then someone else says that the priest
only .absolves sins? ------ What’s going on here? ------- Didn’t Jesus specifically say forgive sins? ------- So which is it? ED O.

I touched on this earlier. Jesus tells all of us that we must forgive one another’s sins - or else God won’t forgive us of our sins. But even though we forgive someone of their sin, that doesn’t necessarily mean that God forgives someone. In other words, my forgiving someone doesn’t free them from this sin. It take’s God’s forgiveness.

But when a priest forgives someone, then Jesus promises us (in John 20) that HE will also forgive our sins.

You could say that the priest’s forgiveness frees us from this sin. But it would be more accurate to say that the priest is participating in Jesus’ promise (in John 20), which ultimately frees us from this sin.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by NotWorthy
You could say that the priest’s forgiveness frees us from this sin. But it would be more accurate to say that the priest is participating in Jesus’ promise (in John 20), which ultimately frees us from this sin

. Hi NotWorthy, It seems like we are going in circles. On post 360 this is what you say:

C) Even more incredible, what about this incredible authority that, if the Apostles refuse to forgive someone of their sins, Jesus won’t forgive them either?

So according to this, it’s up to the Apostles to forgive sins if they don’t then Jesus will accept their judgement. So in fact the apostles (now priests) do forgive sins Am I correct? ED O.

 

[NotWorthy]

. Hi NotWorthy, It seems like we are going in circles. On post 360 this is what you say:

C) Even more incredible, what about this incredible authority that, if the Apostles refuse to forgive someone of their sins, Jesus won’t forgive them either?

So according to this, it’s up to the Apostles to forgive sins if they don’t then Jesus will accept their judgement. So in fact the apostles (now priests) do forgive sins Am I correct? ED O.

Yes, the Apostles (now priests) forgive sins. **THAT **in and of itself does not free us from our sins. The Fulfillment of Jesus’ promise that HE would forgive our sins IF the Apostles (now priests) forgive our sins is what frees us of our sins.

So when PJM says:

2. The role of the priest is NOT to fogive the sins, rather to determine whose sins, and which sins can and should be forgiven.

3. The words of the priest in Confession are " I ABSOLVE YOU FROM YOUR SINS IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT." He never say’s "I forgive you your sins!

He means, the role of the priest is not to “Sacramentally” forgive our sins. I know that’s a poor way to phrase it, and one my Catholic Brothers is going to sick the Catechism Police on me, but it may be more accurate to say, “The Forgiveness that the priest offers does not, in and of itself, free us from our sins, but the Forgiveness that Jesus offers (in response to His promise in John 20 to forgive what the priest forgives) is what frees us from our sins.”

 

[NotWorthy]

BTW, Ed, thank you for your vast patience with me. Now it is my turn to say, I’m beat and its time to go to bed.

Good night, brother, and may Christ’s Peace always remain with you!!!

P.S. … and my His Peace one day bring you Home to His Church! (Sorry, couldn’t resist!)

 

[PJM]

=EdOsiecki;6323401]To PJM and NotWorthy
Let’s not get off the track of what John 20:21-23 means by trying to figure out whether John the Baptist heard confessions or not.

In John 20:21-23 I’m asking both of you what kind of sins will not be forgiven when Mark 3:28 states, “I tell you the truth, ALL the SINS and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them v29 but whoever blasphemies against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven.”

I take this to mean that there is only ONE sin that can’t be forgiven. ED O.

SORRY:blush:

***In todays application is applies to the denial of God. This can also be understood to be denial of the Blessed Trinity.

At the time it was written it was more specific.

It was denial of the Tinity [because denial of any part of the Trinity; Father; Son or Holy Spirit, is factually a denial of all three and therefore of God.]

Further as the Bible was completed by the end of the First Century when there was only ONE Church, it also included denial of “the Church [CC]” held to be synomous with God, as God founded her, remains in her and continues to guide Her and protect Her truth.

Rather than say “there is but one sin that cannot be forgiven,” it is far more accurate to say that there is “one sin that WILL NOT be forgiven.” As all sins are forgivable with Contrition, Confession and a commitmit to amend ones ways. In other words, accept God, and ones previous obstiance will be forgiven. ***

In Divine justice God MUST offer everyone the opportunity for salvavation. Its our choice not Gods, who accepts and who does not.

Ed, I hope this clarifies this for you?

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted By PJM
SORRY:blush:

***In todays application is applies to the denial of God. This can also be understood to be denial of the Blessed Trinity.

At the time it was written it was more specific.

It was denial of the Tinity [because denial of any part of the Trinity; Father; Son or Holy Spirit, is factually a denial of all three and therefore of God.]

Further as the Bible was completed by the end of the First Century when there was only ONE Church, it also included denial of “the Church [CC]” held to be synomous with God, as God founded her, remains in her and continues to guide Her and protect Her truth.

Rather than say “there is but one sin that cannot be forgiven,” it is far more accurate to say that there is “one sin that WILL NOT be forgiven.” As all sins are forgivable with Contrition, Confession and a commitmit to amend ones ways. In other words, accept God, and ones previous obstiance will be forgiven. ***

**In Divine justice God MUST offer everyone the opportunity for salvavation. Its our choice not Gods, who accepts and who does not.:eek Hi PJM I’m speaking about saved people (born again) going to conferssion to a priest. What sins won’t he forgive? There aren’t any! -----Jesus said ALL sins are forgiven didn’t He? Except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. The Catholic church claims John 20:21-23 means confession to priests don’t they? ED O.

 

[NotWorthy]

Hi PJM I’m speaking about saved people (born again) going to conferssion to a priest. What sins won’t he forgive? There aren’t any! -----Jesus said ALL sins are forgiven didn’t He? Except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. The Catholic church claims John 20:21-23 means confession to priests don’t they? ED O.

The Catholic Church uses confession to priests as the means of implementing Christ’s command to the Apostles (and Disciples).

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by NotWorthy
The Catholic Church uses confession to priests as the means of implementing Christ’s command to the Apostles (and Disciples )

Hi NotWorthy, Yes I know that. What I’m getting at is what sins will a priest not forgive (per John 20). Because Jesus said that ALL sins will be forgiven except that one against the Holy Spirit. What other sins can there be? ED O.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by PJM
The role of the priest is NOT to fogive the sins, rather to determine whose sins, and which sins can and should be forgiven.

Hi PJM, isn’t Jesus telling the disciples to forgive sins per Joh 20 and that’s how the Catholic church comes up with priests and confessions?

The words of the priest in Confession are " I ABSOLVE YOU FROM YOUR SINS IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT." He never say’s "I forgive you your sins Jesus didn’t tell the disciples to “Absolve you from your sins” you’re making that up.

This allows the penitent to know with 100% certainty that there sins have been forgiven BY GOD.

When I read 1 John 1:9 and it states, “If we confess our sin He is faithful to forgive us.” Shouldn’t that tell me that I’m 100% sure that my sins are forgiven?

Thus it is the mandated role of the priest to determine who’s sins shall or shall-NOT be forgiven; and GOD IS OBLIGATED TO ACCEPT THE DECISION OF HIS PRIEST

Who’s sins shall or shall NOT be forgiven? Can you give me and example?

ED O.

 

[NotWorthy]

Hi NotWorthy, Yes I know that. What I’m getting at is what sins will a priest not forgive (per John 20). Because Jesus said that ALL sins will be forgiven except that one against the Holy Spirit. What other sins can there be? ED O.

By all sins, did Jesus mean all sins?

Has every sin been forgiven?

 

[NotWorthy]

When I read 1 John 1:9 and it states, “If we confess our sin He is faithful to forgive us.” Shouldn’t that tell me that I’m 100% sure that my sins are forgiven?
Who’s sins shall or shall NOT be forgiven? Can you give me and example?

ED O.

I had a priest explain it to me this way.

He had a young man that came into confession. “Bless me Father, for I have sinned. I just moved in with my fiance and we’ve been having sex out of wedlock”.

The priest then asked the young man, “well, have you quit having sex? Have you moved out?”

He replies, “Well, uh, no. No, I haven’t, Father”.

“Do you plan on quitting this premarital sex”? The priest inquired.

“Gosh, no, Father!”.

“Then how can I absolve you if you plan on continuing this sin?”