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luv_pis
Guest
Let him read G. K. Chesterton’s The Everlasting Man (also in txt & pdf formats; main website is here; don’t know where you can buy them anymore, try amazon.com).
I’d recommend you to read it too
How to respond to: "Explain why your god is REAL while Zeus is imaginary"
- Status
I’d recommend you to read it too
K
KarenNC
Guest
**A real God is one who is instrumental, in a major or lesser way, in the workings of the cosmos - manifests himself openly in the very stars and elements or else the tiniest sub-atomic particles of our own bodies. **
OK, no problem there. I certainly see the Gods in the workings of the cosmos.
**A real God’s activity and existence is plain and evident for all to see. **
Check. I see evidence all around me of the Gods and it is clear for anyone to see.
**People simply don’t forget a real God, ever, we depend upon a real God for one or more of the necessities of our existence! **
If the Gods were forgotten, would we be having this conversation?
I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of the people reading this forum could give me a pretty good description of my Gods, and could tell many of their sacred stories. In fact, for many of them, they may be able to do so more easily than they could describe some Jewish or Christian sacred stories. How many could easily tell you what I mean when I refer to Pandora’s box? Medusa? Pegasus? How about Elisha and the bears? Jael and the tent stake? Abraham and Abimelech?
If said God is real that is. If he’s a useless impotent fiction like Zeus then we forget him, sure, (more than that, deride him as myths and fables) - and we can safely do so, because the world and we go on just fine without Zeus and other fictional creatures.
So, by this argument, a God that does not immediately strike you dead or otherwise destroy the world for saying stories about Him are not absolute historical truth is not real? One that does not do so to everyone who says He doesn’t exist or makes a joke about Him? Sorry, don’t see the Christian God passing that test.
You also entirely miss the point of myth. The purpose of myth is not to poke fun at someone or something. It conveys the deepest truths about how to be human and how to relate to that which is beyond our current human understanding (and may always be). If it did not speak to a core within us, a myth would not last for millenia. When I speak of Christian and Jewish sacred stories as myths, I do not denigrate them. In fact, I pay them respect for the role they play, even if I consider that they do so imperfectly.
Western culture has not forgotten the Gods, far from it. Consider why the Greek myths resonate and are taught and studied and continue to be an integral part of Western culture thousands of years after and in a very different society than originally engaged in corporate worship of the Gods. Look at the influences on art, architecture, literature, government, language, etc. This is far deeper than “deriding as myths and fables.”
How would you know that “the world and we go on just fine without Zeus?” If you have lived in Western culture, you’ve never had to try.
But the true God - no, we don’t as a species forget that we owe Him, we remember Him and worship Him because we know He truly DOES give us life and all things.
This argument might have more weight if the entire species worshipped one God and had one understanding of the nature of said God which was consistent (or even somewhat close) across history and across cultures. It does not and never has.
The Gods exist. Period. Their existence is not dependent on human worship or human acknowledgment. Whether They choose to interact with humanity at all times and in all places is entirely up to Them.
OK, no problem there. I certainly see the Gods in the workings of the cosmos.
**A real God’s activity and existence is plain and evident for all to see. **
Check. I see evidence all around me of the Gods and it is clear for anyone to see.
**People simply don’t forget a real God, ever, we depend upon a real God for one or more of the necessities of our existence! **
If the Gods were forgotten, would we be having this conversation?
I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of the people reading this forum could give me a pretty good description of my Gods, and could tell many of their sacred stories. In fact, for many of them, they may be able to do so more easily than they could describe some Jewish or Christian sacred stories. How many could easily tell you what I mean when I refer to Pandora’s box? Medusa? Pegasus? How about Elisha and the bears? Jael and the tent stake? Abraham and Abimelech?
If said God is real that is. If he’s a useless impotent fiction like Zeus then we forget him, sure, (more than that, deride him as myths and fables) - and we can safely do so, because the world and we go on just fine without Zeus and other fictional creatures.
So, by this argument, a God that does not immediately strike you dead or otherwise destroy the world for saying stories about Him are not absolute historical truth is not real? One that does not do so to everyone who says He doesn’t exist or makes a joke about Him? Sorry, don’t see the Christian God passing that test.
You also entirely miss the point of myth. The purpose of myth is not to poke fun at someone or something. It conveys the deepest truths about how to be human and how to relate to that which is beyond our current human understanding (and may always be). If it did not speak to a core within us, a myth would not last for millenia. When I speak of Christian and Jewish sacred stories as myths, I do not denigrate them. In fact, I pay them respect for the role they play, even if I consider that they do so imperfectly.
Western culture has not forgotten the Gods, far from it. Consider why the Greek myths resonate and are taught and studied and continue to be an integral part of Western culture thousands of years after and in a very different society than originally engaged in corporate worship of the Gods. Look at the influences on art, architecture, literature, government, language, etc. This is far deeper than “deriding as myths and fables.”
How would you know that “the world and we go on just fine without Zeus?” If you have lived in Western culture, you’ve never had to try.
But the true God - no, we don’t as a species forget that we owe Him, we remember Him and worship Him because we know He truly DOES give us life and all things.
This argument might have more weight if the entire species worshipped one God and had one understanding of the nature of said God which was consistent (or even somewhat close) across history and across cultures. It does not and never has.
The Gods exist. Period. Their existence is not dependent on human worship or human acknowledgment. Whether They choose to interact with humanity at all times and in all places is entirely up to Them.
K
KarenNC
Guest
** I would very much like to see some evidence for Zeus. I never seem to hear anything about him appearing to anyone or performing miracles nowadays. Theres absolutly no reason to think he exists. Of course i my self could easly have a relationship with any of the old Gods that i choose, but worship is not “owed” to them, for they have no connection to you other then the fact that they lord them selves over nature and your life.**
Interesting. You claim on the one hand that you could easily have a relationship with the Gods though you do not owe Them worship and on the other hand that They do not exist.
As for physical manifestations, I seem to remember a story about Doubting Thomas? If physical manifestations are not required for followers of your religion to believe that your God exists, why should you think that they are required for mine?
I do not cultivate a relationship with my Gods out of a sense of obligation. Is that why you worship yours?
In what way do you consider that They “lord themselves over nature and my life?”
** It was my thinking that the ancient people worshiped these beings because they protected them from some other creatures.**
Your God does not protect and assist His followers? I’m sorry, that must be inconvenient.
** I can’t remmeber the exact story exactly. **
There are many. If you can remember any details from the one you seek, I will be happy to assist if I can.
But one can understand why one would worship a God who is a father, a Creator; the source of one’s being and existence.
Yes, if one believed that such existed.
** This Zeus doesn’t seem to care much if he doesn’t even bother keep up masses faith in him.**
I’m not sure why you and Lily seem so bent on this requirement for a God’s existence (and the most desirable trait of such) being an all consuming need to be acknowledged and worshipped at all times.
I am grateful that the Gods on occasion choose to exert themselves apparently on my behalf. I do not have the hubris to demand or expect that such will always be the case.
Interesting. You claim on the one hand that you could easily have a relationship with the Gods though you do not owe Them worship and on the other hand that They do not exist.
As for physical manifestations, I seem to remember a story about Doubting Thomas? If physical manifestations are not required for followers of your religion to believe that your God exists, why should you think that they are required for mine?
I do not cultivate a relationship with my Gods out of a sense of obligation. Is that why you worship yours?
In what way do you consider that They “lord themselves over nature and my life?”
** It was my thinking that the ancient people worshiped these beings because they protected them from some other creatures.**
Your God does not protect and assist His followers? I’m sorry, that must be inconvenient.
** I can’t remmeber the exact story exactly. **
There are many. If you can remember any details from the one you seek, I will be happy to assist if I can.
But one can understand why one would worship a God who is a father, a Creator; the source of one’s being and existence.
Yes, if one believed that such existed.
** This Zeus doesn’t seem to care much if he doesn’t even bother keep up masses faith in him.**
I’m not sure why you and Lily seem so bent on this requirement for a God’s existence (and the most desirable trait of such) being an all consuming need to be acknowledged and worshipped at all times.
I am grateful that the Gods on occasion choose to exert themselves apparently on my behalf. I do not have the hubris to demand or expect that such will always be the case.
K
KarenNC
Guest
I have read Chesterton, Lewis and many, many others.Let him read G. K. Chesterton’s The Everlasting Man (also in txt & pdf formats; main website is here; don’t know where you can buy them anymore, try amazon.com).
I’d recommend you to read it too
L
luv_pis
Guest
KarenNC, I’d also invite you to read G. K. Chesterton’s *The Everlasting Man, *whose link is in my previous post.
You just might be surprised
EDIT: Ah, well, in that case, what are your comments about this particular work of Chesterton? I’d say it is VERY relevant to this discussion.
K
KarenNC
Guest
My relationship with my Gods is not as a dependent child or as a created thing. Are not relationships freely chosen usually more fulfilling than those only done out of duty or obligation?
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Lev23
Guest
The God of Israel’s existence can be proved by his prophecy contained in the hebrew scriptures. From his propecies fulfilled to the ones being fulfilled in our day with the beginning of restoration of the people and land of Israel, etc. The God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob is batting 1.000 with his prophecies so far. Just look at the Jews, who God chose; no other people has spoke the same language, worship the same God as long as the Israelites have.
Greek Gods are known for double crossing or tricking people, as well as other nonsense. To top it off, prophecy, especially from Zeus, comes up lacking.
Greek Gods are known for double crossing or tricking people, as well as other nonsense. To top it off, prophecy, especially from Zeus, comes up lacking.
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LilyM
Guest
But you ARE a dependent child and a created thing, whether you like it or see it or not. Try keeping your own heart or lungs going when your Creator decides it’s time for 'em to stop for good. Try making most any plan of action and sticking to it exactly and see how dependent on God you really are for everything that happens in your life. There’s a saying ‘if you want to make God laugh, tell Him your plans’ and that applies to a little miss ‘I’m not dependent’ like yourself as much as to me.
As for relationships - yes love is important. And fulfilling. Duty and obligation aren’t in the slightest incompatible with love. To say they are is to create a false dichotomy. Many of the very same things that make me love God (such as the goods He has bestowed upon me) are the things that create the duties and obligations I have towards him as well.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Well, no. It’s a nice ‘conceit’, very modern, very rational, and very ‘black/white’, either/or, and polarizing. And, of course, wrong.
- My relationship with God is not, never was, and never will be done ‘only’ out of duty or obligation. Attempting to make that the ‘one’ side, and comparing it with ‘freely chosen’–such a nice use of a buzz word that implies those who do not do so are ‘slaves’ or coerced’ is rather disingenuous.
- Even if it were true that my relationship was done only out of duty (which it is not), that still would not make the relationship less fulfilling than one ‘freely chosen’. A free choice is not necessarily a correct choice. I may freely choose, for example, to ingest food to excess, and find this much more fulfilling, in every sense, than to follow a reasonable, balanced diet, for quite a long period of time if not my entire life. In the long run, though, that ‘free, fulfilled choice’ winds up making me less fulfilled in virtually every aspect of my life, from physical (health complications keeping me from full function), emotional (lack of discipline in food choices spilling over into lack of discipline in other areas), etc. Whereas though I might think myself ‘less free’ in having to discipline myself to eat more healthfully, and ‘sacrifice’ the free choice of all the ‘junk’ or even the free choice of eating more ‘good’ stuff than I need, in the long run I wind up living more freely (better bodily health, better emotional health, etc.)
K
KarenNC
Guest
It’s been a number of years. I would have to go back and look over it in order to have specific relevant comments. Given the schedule we have over the next few days and into next week, I don’t know when I will be able to find the time to do so, but thanks for the suggestion. Are there specific parts that you would like to address immediately? I might be able to look at those if you can give pretty precise citations.KarenNC, I’d also invite you to read G. K. Chesterton’s *The Everlasting Man, *whose link is in my previous post.
You just might be surprised
EDIT: Ah, well, in that case, what are your comments about this particular work of Chesterton? I’d say it is VERY relevant to this discussion.
K
KarenNC
Guest
The God of Israel’s existence can be proved by his prophecy contained in the hebrew scriptures. From his propecies fulfilled to the ones being fulfilled in our day with the beginning of restoration of the people and land of Israel, etc. The God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob is batting 1.000 with his prophecies so far.
People also claim that Nostradamus’ prophecies have come true. Very little in the way of prophecy is unequivocal and not open to interpretation. If you speak of prophecies related to Jesus as the Jewish Messiah, well that one is hardly uncontested, is it?
Also, by your own definition, not terribly impressive to make prophecies if you are supposedly both omniscient and the one who pulls all the strings to make anything happen.
Just look at the Jews, who God chose; no other people has spoke the same language, worship the same God as long as the Israelites have.
Are you Jewish, then?
**Greek Gods are known for double crossing or tricking people, as well as other nonsense. **
Are you suggesting that the Gods (including yours) should be held to a human standard of ethics and behavior? We can explore that one further if you like.
** To top it off, prophecy, especially from Zeus, comes up lacking.**
Could you be a little more specific?
People also claim that Nostradamus’ prophecies have come true. Very little in the way of prophecy is unequivocal and not open to interpretation. If you speak of prophecies related to Jesus as the Jewish Messiah, well that one is hardly uncontested, is it?
Also, by your own definition, not terribly impressive to make prophecies if you are supposedly both omniscient and the one who pulls all the strings to make anything happen.
Just look at the Jews, who God chose; no other people has spoke the same language, worship the same God as long as the Israelites have.
Are you Jewish, then?
**Greek Gods are known for double crossing or tricking people, as well as other nonsense. **
Are you suggesting that the Gods (including yours) should be held to a human standard of ethics and behavior? We can explore that one further if you like.
** To top it off, prophecy, especially from Zeus, comes up lacking.**
Could you be a little more specific?
K
KarenNC
Guest
**But you ARE a dependent child and a created thing, whether you like it or see it or not. Try keeping your own heart or lungs going when your Creator decides it’s time for 'em to stop for good. Try making most any plan of action and sticking to it exactly and see how dependent on God you really are for everything that happens in your life. **
I did not say that my life is not dependent on a great many things. I said that my relationship with my Gods is not that of a dependent child or created thing but as an adult human being.
There’s a saying ‘if you want to make God laugh, tell Him your plans’ and that applies to a little miss ‘I’m not dependent’ like yourself as much as to me.
To answer the OP, lesson one–when someone asks you to tell them why your God is real, speaking as if you are on an elementary school playground will not garner you any points in a serious adult conversation.
As for relationships - yes love is important. And fulfilling. Duty and obligation aren’t in the slightest incompatible with love. To say they are is to create a false dichotomy. Many of the very same things that make me love God (such as the goods He has bestowed upon me) are the things that create the duties and obligations I have towards him as well.
I did not say they were incompatible, but you had not mentioned any other dimension than obligation and duty up to this point.
I did not say that my life is not dependent on a great many things. I said that my relationship with my Gods is not that of a dependent child or created thing but as an adult human being.
There’s a saying ‘if you want to make God laugh, tell Him your plans’ and that applies to a little miss ‘I’m not dependent’ like yourself as much as to me.
To answer the OP, lesson one–when someone asks you to tell them why your God is real, speaking as if you are on an elementary school playground will not garner you any points in a serious adult conversation.
As for relationships - yes love is important. And fulfilling. Duty and obligation aren’t in the slightest incompatible with love. To say they are is to create a false dichotomy. Many of the very same things that make me love God (such as the goods He has bestowed upon me) are the things that create the duties and obligations I have towards him as well.
I did not say they were incompatible, but you had not mentioned any other dimension than obligation and duty up to this point.
C
Contarini
Guest
I wouldn’t respond, because I don’t know whether Zeus is imaginary or not. There are three possibilities that I believe are compatible with Christianity (though others may disagree with no. 3):
- Zeus is a very flawed approximation of aspects of the true God, produced by human imagination (I’m not sure even this is quite the same as the questioner’s assumption);
- Zeus is a demon who fooled people into thinking he was worthy of worship when in fact he was entirely evil (this is what the early Christians thought);
- Zeus is a created being, neither entirely good or entirely evil, but more powerful than humans.
- Zeus was simply a human being deified after his death
Edwin
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KarenNC
Guest
**Well, no. It’s a nice ‘conceit’, very modern, very rational, and very ‘black/white’, either/or, and polarizing. And, of course, wrong.
Up to this point, I have been repeatedly told why I have a supposed duty and obligation to worship a particular deity. Bear in mind that I did not start this thread, nor did I come into it with an intention or desire to convert anyone to the worship of my Gods. They are quite capable of taking care of that if They so choose. I am answering the questions put to me. If the question is black and white, the answer may also tend that way. I can only answer the questions given.
As to the slaves or coerced, well, framing it in terms of “you should worship my God because He can destroy you” as is being presented seems fairly coercive to me. I don’t believe that I have mentioned slavery at all. I realize that is not the way in which most Christians view their deity (or at least I hope not), but it is certainly the way in which certain posters are presenting it and thus the topic at hand.
**2. Even if it were true that my relationship was done only out of duty (which it is not), that still would not make the relationship less fulfilling than one ‘freely chosen’. **
Note that I said “usually.” A freely chosen relationship between an independent adult and his or her parents can be much more fulfilling than many types of relationships between dependent children and their parents. To stay in a relationship not because of fear of punishment or grudgingly out of obligation but because the relationship is mutually beneficial and desired are totally different experiences. Both are relationships, but I know the one I want to be in. I sincerely hope that many Christians (and those of other religions) are in a religious relationship for reasons that lead to a fulfilling choice.
** A free choice is not necessarily a correct choice… Whereas though I might think myself ‘less free’ in having to discipline myself to eat more healthfully, and ‘sacrifice’ the free choice of all the ‘junk’ or even the free choice of eating more ‘good’ stuff than I need, in the long run I wind up living more freely (better bodily health, better emotional health, etc.)**
You are absolutely correct. Anything taken to excess can be damaging. Freedom always comes with responsibility or it is merely another form of slavery. Neither is a relationship based primarily on threat of punishment or grudging obligation necessarily the best possible one.
Polytheism is not about lack of discipline and “letting it all hang out” regardless of the consequences to oneself or anyone else. Ethics and morality are the sphere of human to human relationships and fall more appropriately to the philosopher than the priest in Hellenic theology. The Gods are not a model or pattern card for us to follow—to think that we could be like the Gods in any way is hubris and definitely not a good idea (realize that many of the myths are cautionary tales about people who try to do just that). There is no concept of imitatio dei in Hellenic worship.
- My relationship with God is not, never was, and never will be done ‘only’ out of duty or obligation. Attempting to make that the ‘one’ side, and comparing it with ‘freely chosen’–such a nice use of a buzz word that implies those who do not do so are ‘slaves’ or coerced’ is rather disingenuous. **
Up to this point, I have been repeatedly told why I have a supposed duty and obligation to worship a particular deity. Bear in mind that I did not start this thread, nor did I come into it with an intention or desire to convert anyone to the worship of my Gods. They are quite capable of taking care of that if They so choose. I am answering the questions put to me. If the question is black and white, the answer may also tend that way. I can only answer the questions given.
As to the slaves or coerced, well, framing it in terms of “you should worship my God because He can destroy you” as is being presented seems fairly coercive to me. I don’t believe that I have mentioned slavery at all. I realize that is not the way in which most Christians view their deity (or at least I hope not), but it is certainly the way in which certain posters are presenting it and thus the topic at hand.
**2. Even if it were true that my relationship was done only out of duty (which it is not), that still would not make the relationship less fulfilling than one ‘freely chosen’. **
Note that I said “usually.” A freely chosen relationship between an independent adult and his or her parents can be much more fulfilling than many types of relationships between dependent children and their parents. To stay in a relationship not because of fear of punishment or grudgingly out of obligation but because the relationship is mutually beneficial and desired are totally different experiences. Both are relationships, but I know the one I want to be in. I sincerely hope that many Christians (and those of other religions) are in a religious relationship for reasons that lead to a fulfilling choice.
** A free choice is not necessarily a correct choice… Whereas though I might think myself ‘less free’ in having to discipline myself to eat more healthfully, and ‘sacrifice’ the free choice of all the ‘junk’ or even the free choice of eating more ‘good’ stuff than I need, in the long run I wind up living more freely (better bodily health, better emotional health, etc.)**
You are absolutely correct. Anything taken to excess can be damaging. Freedom always comes with responsibility or it is merely another form of slavery. Neither is a relationship based primarily on threat of punishment or grudging obligation necessarily the best possible one.
Polytheism is not about lack of discipline and “letting it all hang out” regardless of the consequences to oneself or anyone else. Ethics and morality are the sphere of human to human relationships and fall more appropriately to the philosopher than the priest in Hellenic theology. The Gods are not a model or pattern card for us to follow—to think that we could be like the Gods in any way is hubris and definitely not a good idea (realize that many of the myths are cautionary tales about people who try to do just that). There is no concept of imitatio dei in Hellenic worship.
F
freesoulhope
Guest
Worship is owed to God because, and only because, he is the father of us and all reality. To worship a being, just because he is more powerful then you, or performs a function, does not make any sense to me, since if such a being does in fact exist, it exists and functions as such, only because it has a source from which it derives all of its existence and power from, to which it rightfully owes worship.
Karen, does not actually worship the Greek Gods like i thought one should, as she claims that it is a matter of thanking somebody for giving you something; and if so why not worship a human being that gives you things, and why are their gifts any less valuble then what Zeus gives? And she worships Zeus and the other Gods because they are more powerfull then she is; so if a man is more powerful then a women, why not worship a man? I cannot see any reason why that Zues, or any other of the greek Gods, are rightfully owed “Worship”; maybe give them thanks, like you would thank a freind, if you feel they have given you something, but why worship their power, if they themselves are not responsible for their power, and that there is an underlying foundation upon which they stand?
K
KarenNC
Guest
So, then, in what specific way do you think one should worship the Greek Gods, if my form does not meet your criteria? Upon what do you base your criteria?
F
freesoulhope
Guest
You were right that I don’t know a thing about the Greek Gods, as I thought that they were supposedly responsible for our existence and the whole universe; and therefore I thought that this was the reason that you felt that worship was owed to them.
To Worship the God of my belief, is the complete total selfless given of ones self to the father of all existence; the source of my reality. One shouldn’t do this just because God does you favors; it should be done because he is the source of all being and reality, and therefore deserves your respect and worship; it should be done because it is good to do it, and only in doing so, are we truly complete, since God is the root of my being. Cut off the root, I cut off my self from my very being. Nobody seriously thinks that a child should only respect ones biological Father, and be good to ones Father, just because he gives you presents. One should respect the Father because, he is the Father.
And here in lies the problem with Zeus and all other creatures; supernatural or otherwise. As your brother, I am concerned with why you would worship a being that is not ultimately responsible for your being. If these creatures are not the root of existence it’s very self, then they are not the root of happiness: they are not the root of pleasure: they are not the root of life: they are not the root of ultimate morality and all things good; therefore they are not God, but are lesser beings then God. If neither Zeus, Apollo, or any of the other Gods can be called the root, the source, the ultimate reality, then they are not owed worship for the things they give us; for the things that you believe they give you, do not ultimately belong to them. For them to command worship from you, would then be a deception, since they have commanded worship for something which does not ultimatly belong to them or you; they are stealing what is owed to the Father; therefore they are unworthy of worship. You cannot be made whole and neither can you perfectly know your true self, or nature, by worshiping these creatures; for such things can only be found in the “source” of all being.
K
KarenNC
Guest
**To Worship the God of my belief, is the complete total selfless given of ones self to the father of all existence; the source of my reality. **
The issue here may be in our usage of the word worship
from Merriam Webster
Main Entry: 1wor·ship
Etymology: Middle English worshipe worthiness, respect, reverence paid to a divine being, from Old English weorthscipe worthiness, respect, from weorth worthy, worth + -scipe -ship
2 : reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
3 : a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
or from the online etymological dictionary
worship (n.)
O.E. worðscip, wurðscip (Anglian), weorðscipe (W.Saxon) “condition of being worthy, honor, renown,” from weorð “worthy” (see worth) + -scipe (see -ship). Sense of “reverence paid to a supernatural or divine being” is first recorded c.1300. The original sense is preserved in the title worshipful (c.1300). The verb is recorded from c.1200.
I certainly see the Gods as worthy of respect and honor. It is not that They “give me presents” as that is very rarely the case, though I would be foolish not to thank Them in such an instance. I am following examples of religious practice and ritual that were laid down in antiquity.
Also, I do not see Them as “commanding” worship. That would be to imply a punishment for not doing so.
Part of the issue is also that I simply do not believe that the God of the Jews or the Christians is the sole Creator God, or even that such necessarily exists. A God, I will concede that that is possible, but I see no evidence that convinces me that He is, indeed, omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent as described or that He is substantially different from the Gods of other religions.
The issue here may be in our usage of the word worship
from Merriam Webster
Main Entry: 1wor·ship
Etymology: Middle English worshipe worthiness, respect, reverence paid to a divine being, from Old English weorthscipe worthiness, respect, from weorth worthy, worth + -scipe -ship
2 : reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
3 : a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
or from the online etymological dictionary
worship (n.)
O.E. worðscip, wurðscip (Anglian), weorðscipe (W.Saxon) “condition of being worthy, honor, renown,” from weorð “worthy” (see worth) + -scipe (see -ship). Sense of “reverence paid to a supernatural or divine being” is first recorded c.1300. The original sense is preserved in the title worshipful (c.1300). The verb is recorded from c.1200.
I certainly see the Gods as worthy of respect and honor. It is not that They “give me presents” as that is very rarely the case, though I would be foolish not to thank Them in such an instance. I am following examples of religious practice and ritual that were laid down in antiquity.
Also, I do not see Them as “commanding” worship. That would be to imply a punishment for not doing so.
Part of the issue is also that I simply do not believe that the God of the Jews or the Christians is the sole Creator God, or even that such necessarily exists. A God, I will concede that that is possible, but I see no evidence that convinces me that He is, indeed, omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent as described or that He is substantially different from the Gods of other religions.
F
freesoulhope
Guest
There is only one issue. Why? And then, i want to know why you think that such a reason is a “worthy reason” to believe in them or worship them.
Surely it would be more reasonable to put faith in a God who claims to be the source of all being and nature,(who would therefore know what is best for you and your life) rather then some God who claims to give you things but is not the “source” of the very thing that he is giving you?
K
KarenNC
Guest
Not if I believed that that “God who claims to be the source of all being and nature” is, at best, sorely mistaken.
I honor, respect and worship the Gods because I see Them in everything around me. I feel Their power and respect Their knowledge and abilities. I have had direct experience of Their presence and reality. If They exist, and They do by every criteria I know, then the God of the Christians cannot be what He claims or what His followers claim for Him.
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