How to respond to: "Explain why your god is REAL while Zeus is imaginary"

[freesoulhope]

Not if I believed that that “God who claims to be the source of all being and nature” is, at best, sorely mistaken.

I honor, respect and worship the Gods because I see Them in everything around me. I feel Their power and respect Their knowledge and abilities. I have had direct experience of Their presence and reality. If They exist, and They do by every criteria I know, then the God of the Christians cannot be what He claims or what His followers claim for Him.

Well; besides what you think you know and feel, i know that the world did not create it self; and if Zeus didn’t do it, then he isn’t God.

Secondly, you have no reason to think that my God is mistaken other then your claim that you can feel a power around you, which you attribute to these creatures.

Peace

 

[KarenNC]

Well; besides what you think you know and feel, i know that the world did not create it self; and if Zeus didn’t do it, then he isn’t God.

Secondly, you have no reason to think that my God is mistaken other then your claim that you can feel a power around you, which you attribute to these creatures.

By your definition of God, perhaps. It is not the definition shared by most of humanity throughout recorded history.

“Gods.” Not “creatures.” Re-read–“I have had direct experience of Their presence and reality.” Response to prayer is one of those. I also have the evidence presented by others, ancient and current, who have had similar experiences with Them.

What is your basis for claiming that your God is substantially different from the Gods of other people throughout history? What is your basis for claiming that what I and millions of other people throughout history say are our real experiences with deities that are not your God are mistaken or that our experiences are not as real as those you claim?

 

[LilyM]

**But you ARE a dependent child and a created thing, whether you like it or see it or not. Try keeping your own heart or lungs going when your Creator decides it’s time for 'em to stop for good. Try making most any plan of action and sticking to it exactly and see how dependent on God you really are for everything that happens in your life. **

I did not say that my life is not dependent on a great many things. I said that my relationship with my Gods is not that of a dependent child or created thing but as an adult human being.

No, your relationship is that of a ten-year-old who likes to THINK they’re grownup and independent when they’re not. We’ll never be anything approaching mature adults compared to God (or Zeus even) - not while we’re on this planet!

But God, being a loving and indulgent parent, tries not to shatter these illusions of independence for us too often

As I said, you can’t take a breath or make your heart beat even once, let alone do anything more complicated, without the permission (and the help, if you’re to do anything good) of God.

 

[freesoulhope]

By your definition of God, perhaps. It is not the definition shared by most of humanity throughout recorded history.

“Gods.” Not “creatures.” Re-read–“I have had direct experience of Their presence and reality.” Response to prayer is one of those.
What is your basis for claiming that your God is substantially different from the Gods of other people throughout history?

Zeus is a creature if he did not create everything, and is not the basis for existence.
God created everything out of nothing; therefore Zeus is a creature, because he is a creation. A God that created everything from nothing, is a God worth worshipping, since only such a God is responsible for the good things we get out of life. Creatures such as the one you speak of, are intermedery at best, if in fact they exist. And yes, we most certainly do have a different sense of what a God is; its just a matter of which one is more reasonable.

People have had direct experience of Jesus Christ the Son (who rose from the dead, about two thousand years ago), and have been healed and changed by his presence. Jesus and his followers maintained that there is only one God. Nothing about Zeus or any claims to divinity have been mentioned. Anything they did say, was against him.

Christians, up to this day, experince healings and mystical experiences, through worshiping in the name of Christ. Somebody is obviously mistaken, or is possibly lying, or they are mistakingly attributing things to Zeus that they should be attributing to the one true God.

Apart from that, i have not much more to say on the subject. Thank you for spending your time with me, and expressing your beliefs; i do appreciate it, i just don’t agree with them, for the reasons stated above.

God bless and peace.

 

[KarenNC]

No, your relationship is that of a ten-year-old who likes to THINK they’re grownup and independent when they’re not. We’ll never be anything approaching mature adults compared to God (or Zeus even) - not while we’re on this planet!

But God, being a loving and indulgent parent, tries not to shatter these illusions of independence for us too often

As I said, you can’t take a breath or make your heart beat even once, let alone do anything more complicated, without the permission (and the help, if you’re to do anything good) of God.

I would not dare the hubris to claim that I am or could be the equivalent of the Gods. As the inscription at the Oracle of Delphi read: “Know thyself.” I fully claim that I am a rational, independent, mature adult human being with all that entails. I approach my Gods in that manner.

 

[KarenNC]

**God created everything out of nothing **

And how do you know this?

People have had direct experience of Jesus Christ the Son (who rose from the dead, about two thousand years ago), and have been healed and changed by his presence. Jesus and his followers maintained that there is only one God. Nothing about Zeus or any claims to divinity have been mentioned. Anything they did say, was against him.

I can claim that there are no other people living on my street because I want it to be so or want to convince someone else that it is so for whatever reason. When someone points out, “Right there is a person living across the street, she comes and goes, receives mail, brings out her trash, plants flowers, walks her dog–can’t you see her? I have talked with her and so have a number of my friends. She came to dinner at my house last week. It’s actually my sister-in-law’s aunt and she has lived there for 50 years. Here are the columns she has written for the local newspaper all that time, the groups that she has joined, awards she has won,” I can say that she is only a figment of the person’s imagination, a demon, an illusion, a robotic doll I put together all I want. Doesn’t change the reality that there actually is a person living across the street from me.

Christians, up to this day, experince healings and mystical experiences.

So do the followers of other religions.

** Somebody is mistaking, or is possibly lying, or they are mistakingly attributing things to Zeus that they should be attributing to the one true God.**

Why must the others be mistaken or lying rather than those who attribute such things to a a singular God rather than just one more God among many? What makes the experiences and understandings of Christians inherently and objectively more true?

I am not saying that your God cannot exist, just that if He does, I see no compelling evidence that shows that He is alone and plenty that points out that He isn’t.

 

[Ahimsa]

Zeus, and the Latin form Jupiter, means “Sky-Shine-Father”, and seems to be an Indo-European evocation of the Fatherhood of God. And since the Father is part of the Christian Trinity, Zeus can be seen as reflective of the ancient Greek understanding (albeit “imperfect” when seen from a Christian Trinitarian perspective) of the First Person of the Christian Trinity.

Zeus, poetically referred to by the vocative Zeu pater (“O, father Zeus”), is a continuation of *Di̯ēus, the Proto-Indo-European god of the daytime sky, also called *Dyeus ph2tēr (“Sky Father”).[1] The god is known under this name in Sanskrit (cf. Dyaus/Dyaus Pita), Latin (cf. Jupiter, from Iuppiter, deriving from the PIE vocative *dyeu-ph2tēr[2]), deriving from the basic form *dyeu- (“to shine”, and in its many derivatives, “sky, heaven, god”).[1] And in Germanic and Norse mythology (cf. *Tīwaz > OHG Ziu, ON Týr), together with Latin deus, dīvus and Dis(a variation of dīves[3]), from the related noun *deiwos.[3] To the Greeks and Romans, the god of the sky was also the supreme god, whereas this function was filled out by Odin among the Germanic tribes. Accordingly, they did not identify Zeus/Jupiter with either Tyr or Odin, but with Thor (Þórr). Zeus is the only deity in the Olympic pantheon whose name has such a transparent Indo-European etymology.[4]

%between%

 

[KarenNC]

Zeus, and the Latin form Jupiter, means “Sky-Shine-Father”, and seems to be an Indo-European evocation of the Fatherhood of God. And since the Father is part of the Christian Trinity, Zeus can be seen as reflective of the ancient Greek understanding (albeit “imperfect” when seen from a Christian Trinitarian perspective) of the First Person of the Christian Trinity.

Or the Christian Trinity can be seen as reflective of a misunderstanding of an actual multiplicity of Gods, albeit imperfect.

 

[valient_Lucy]

A long time ago, i use to play with the idea of believing in Zues, because i liked the stories so much.

What does greek theology have to say about the universes creation?

If I remember correctly, Greek mythology says that, rather than the gods creating the heavens and the earth, the earth and heaven created the gods. If I remember correctly, heaven and earth married and gave birth to the Titans, who in turn gave birth to the gods.

 

[freesoulhope]

If I remember correctly, Greek mythology says that, rather than the gods creating the heavens and the earth, the earth and heaven created the gods. If I remember correctly, heaven and earth married and gave birth to the Titans, who in turn gave birth to the gods.

Thank you Lucy; what you have just said, has knocked the last nail in the coffin for me.

 

[Laurence_of_PA]

In the Book of Exodus, weren’t the actions taken by God – the plagues that is – enacted so as to prove to the Egyptians that the false deities they worshiped were powerless against the one true God? Specifically, I heard that each plague corresponded to an Egyptian god and his or her “realm of protection” I’ll call it, and how, despite all the reverence and respect shown to these individual “gods”, the pestilence still propagated.

Though not specifically Greek, this at least brings up a story of how the Old Testament – at the very least – tries to refute the idea that anything other than a monotheistic God has any influence in world affairs.

I’m not an expert myself so can’t quite continue, but I assume the more learned can use this to take a different angle in discussion.

 

[Ahimsa]

In the Book of Exodus, weren’t the actions taken by God – the plagues that is – enacted so as to prove to the Egyptians that the false deities they worshiped were powerless against the one true God? Specifically, I heard that each plague corresponded to an Egyptian god and his or her “realm of protection” I’ll call it, and how, despite all the reverence and respect shown to these individual “gods”, the pestilence still propagated.

Though not specifically Greek, this at least brings up a story of how the Old Testament – at the very least – tries to refute the idea that anything other than a monotheistic God has any influence in world affairs.

I’m not an expert myself so can’t quite continue, but I assume the more learned can use this to take a different angle in discussion.

Or maybe the Egyptian Gods were working in concert with the Hebrew God, because the Egyptians were enslaving a group of people, and the Egyptian Gods and the Hebrew God got together and said, “We have to teach these Egyptians that slavery is not good. So we’ll let plagues overpower them. Once the slaves are free, then the Egyptians, as well as the Hebrews, will have learned an important lesson: Know thyself and love thy neighbor.”

 

[KarenNC]

Thank you Lucy; what you have just said, has knocked the last nail in the coffin for me.

Out of curiosity, why?

 

[KarenNC]

In the Book of Exodus, weren’t the actions taken by God – the plagues that is – enacted so as to prove to the Egyptians that the false deities they worshiped were powerless against the one true God? Specifically, I heard that each plague corresponded to an Egyptian god and his or her “realm of protection” I’ll call it, and how, despite all the reverence and respect shown to these individual “gods”, the pestilence still propagated.

Though not specifically Greek, this at least brings up a story of how the Old Testament – at the very least – tries to refute the idea that anything other than a monotheistic God has any influence in world affairs.

I’m not an expert myself so can’t quite continue, but I assume the more learned can use this to take a different angle in discussion.

There are actually a number of stories like this in the Bible and in tradition. Elijah and the priests of Baal in 1Kings 18 is another one that is frequently cited. There’s a well known Jewish Midrash about Abraham and the idols supposedly made by his father, Terah (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terah)).

The stories are certainly important in learning about what the Jews thought about their God and about Jewish culture at the time, but I see no inherent reason to see them as any more literally true in an historic sense or superior to those told by many other religions and cultures in which their Gods defeat the Gods of other people. It’s a common theme.

 

[Spirithound]

Or maybe the Egyptian Gods were working in concert with the Hebrew God, because the Egyptians were enslaving a group of people, and the Egyptian Gods and the Hebrew God got together and said, “We have to teach these Egyptians that slavery is not good. So we’ll let plagues overpower them. Once the slaves are free, then the Egyptians, as well as the Hebrews, will have learned an important lesson: Know thyself and love thy neighbor.”

And the Egyptian gods would have willingly let YHWH show them up so thoroughly??

 

[KarenNC]

Or maybe the Egyptian Gods were working in concert with the Hebrew God, because the Egyptians were enslaving a group of people, and the Egyptian Gods and the Hebrew God got together and said, “We have to teach these Egyptians that slavery is not good. So we’ll let plagues overpower them. Once the slaves are free, then the Egyptians, as well as the Hebrews, will have learned an important lesson: Know thyself and love thy neighbor.”

If so, they didn’t learn it very well, did they, considering how long slavery persisted?

Actually, I find it more telling that the Bible says that Pharoah didn’t release the Israelites and the plagues were necessary specifically because God Himself hardened the Pharoah’s heart so that he would not let them go until God was done flexing His muscles. According to the story, Pharoah couldn’t have let them go even if he wanted to do so rather than the plagues being a consequence of Pharoah not wanting to release them.

Exodus 4:21-23 21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. 22 Then say to Pharaoh, ‘This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son, 23 and I told you, “Let my son go, so he may worship me.” But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.’ "

Exodus 7:1-5
1 Then the LORD said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. 2 You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country. 3 But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, 4 he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites. 5 And the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out of it.”

Basically, Exodus 7-11 simply shows this over and over again.

 

[Ahimsa]

And the Egyptian gods would have willingly let YHWH show them up so thoroughly??

From the Egyptian perspective, it wasn’t the Hebrew God doing the plagues, but rather it was the Egyptian Gods expressing displeasure at the behavior of the Egyptians. The fact that the Hebrews interpreted the plagues in a different way, was not relevant for the Egyptians themselves, who continued to practice their devotions to their Gods.

 

[KarenNC]

From the Egyptian perspective, it wasn’t the Hebrew God doing the plagues, but rather it was the Egyptian Gods expressing displeasure at the behavior of the Egyptians. The fact that the Hebrews interpreted the plagues in a different way, was not relevant for the Egyptians themselves, who continued to practice their devotions to their Gods.

Do you have links to stories in the Egyptian mythos related to these plagues? I’m not aware of any and would like to see them.

 

[KarenNC]

And the Egyptian gods would have willingly let YHWH show them up so thoroughly??

Why would YHWH allow Satan to show Him up so thoroughly? (see the book of Job)

 

[Ahimsa]

If so, they didn’t learn it very well, did they, considering how long slavery persisted?

Some people are very stubborn. Even the Hebrews were allowed to have slaves, a sign that the human tendency to oppress other humans is a very powerful tendency.

As Buddhism spread throughout Asia, it was believed by many Buddhists, that the pre-Buddhist Gods were converted to Buddhism, and thus became supportive of the Buddhist Teaching. A similar process occurred with Christianity, though perhaps on a smaller scale; and one could argue that the Egyptians Gods and the Hebrew God had a similar relationship, or developed such a relationship over time.

It also has to be kept in mind that some of the Egyptian Gods may have been righteous Gods, and others, unrighteous.

Actually, I find it more telling that the Bible says that Pharoah didn’t release the Israelites and the plagues were necessary specifically because God Himself hardened the Pharoah’s heart so that he would not let them go until God was done flexing His muscles. According to the story, Pharoah couldn’t have let them go even if he wanted to do so rather than the plagues being a consequence of Pharoah not wanting to release them.

Exodus 4:21-23 21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. 22 Then say to Pharaoh, ‘This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son, 23 and I told you, “Let my son go, so he may worship me.” But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.’ "

Exodus 7:1-5
1 Then the LORD said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. 2 You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country. 3 But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, 4 he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites. 5 And the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out of it.”

Basically, Exodus 7-11 simply shows this over and over again.

I see the whole story of Pharaoh’s heart being hardened, as a possible case of the Pharaoh being caught in the midst of Divine powers, both Egyptian and Hebrew, powers he had little choice to resist, because the Pharaoh was in league with the unrighteous Egyptian Gods, so the righteous Egyptian Gods and the Hebrew God left him to his fate, in the heart-hardening hands of the unrighteous Egyptian Deities. The Pharaoh could have repented and taking refuge in the part of the Egyptian religious tradition where righteousness, justice, and mercy are valued about; but he chose dark side of the Egyptian worship-system, rather than the light side. The fact that many Egyptian Pharaoh’s may have used slave-labor to build their monuments, does not mean that such slavery would have been supported by Gods like Osiris and Horus.