S
SteveVH
Guest
That makes sense, just as to get better Christian answers to Jewish questions, Jews should come to terms with what Christianity is about.
- Status
K
Kaninchen
Guest
After over a decade and a half, I think I’m starting to get the picture.That makes sense, just as to get better Christian answers to Jewish questions, Jews should come to terms with what Christianity is about.
C
chosen_people
Guest
I have been somewhat reticent about participating in this discussion. However, since some questions have been directed to me, I think some sort of answer should be given.
Imagine that we could go back two thousand years or so and a Jew is telling the story of the Children of Israel crossing the Red (Reed) Sea to a group of Romans and Greeks. To the Greek and Roman listeners it is obvious the sea was parted with the help of the god of the sea (one of the more formidable gods). The part where Moses raised his staff would no doubt be seen as magic or god like powers held by Moses or given to Moses through the auspices of the Chief god.
Now the Jew could argue all he wanted that there is no sea god in the story, that the sea has no power at all, nor does Moses possess any power, god like or otherwise. However, beliefs and perceptions would preclude any acceptance of the Jew’s interpretation, unless his Greek and Roman listeners were willing to abandon and reject their perceptions and beliefs.
More than mistranslations, more than changed tenses and pronouns, this is the essence of any discussion between Jews and Christians based on the Jewish scriptures.
The fact that the Jewish Scriptures begins with the story of Creation and of Adam and Eve has particular meaning in the context of Judaism. When seen through a prism of Jewish concepts, the story makes a wonderful coherent comprehensive whole. However, Jewish concepts as to good and evil, Satan and commandments, are not part of Christian beliefs. So it should come as no surprise that Christians wonder “if the story is true” and at Genesis 3:15 the man becomes Jesus, the woman Mary and Satan becomes the Christian definition of the Devil. It makes no difference that the Devil in the Christian sense is rejected by Judaism, that Jesus and Mary are not actually mentioned, because like the god of the sea in our example, they simply have to be there in the minds of the Christian reader.
Another good example is the story of Moses and the burning bush (I was asked about this in the framework of discussing “manifestations” of God. I presume that the argument is that the burning bush was a manifestation of God and mutatis mutandis, we can see the Christian leader as a manifestation of God in human form there was also mention of the spirit of God, suffice it to say that any discussion about the spirit of God and even the discussion in this thread, argues against any possibility that Jesus was the Messiah ben David as understood in Judaism].
The first thing that should strike the reader in the story of Moses and the burning bush, is why God didn’t just start talking to Moses? First there is an angel (in monotheistic Judaism an angel has no free will and is merely a messenger), than there is the burning bush ( a wonderful symbol and message to Moses about how the Children of Israel, with all the suffering and tribulations of slavery, will survive) and then God speaks to Moses. We see that Moses who has been brought up as an Egyptian prince away from the concept of the Hebrew God, has to be brought in steps to understand and recognize that he is talking to God. However, we should have no mistake that the burning bush is not how we should seek and understand God. God immediately tells Moses “do not come nearer to here”. In other words, don’t search for Me in the vision of the burning bush. The next thing God says emphasizes this point. Take off your shoes God says to Moses, in other words root yourself to the ground to the physical world in which you live. “For the place upon which you stand is holy ground” In other words, sanctity is to be found wherever you stand, wherever you are. You and your people are about to become partners with Me in the creation of holiness in this world. You will be challenged to sanctify God’s name in your everyday lives. The Divine Presence will be discovered not in the realm of mystery but in your daily activities and in your ongoing interactions with each other. Search for holiness Moses “where you stand”.
Imagine that we could go back two thousand years or so and a Jew is telling the story of the Children of Israel crossing the Red (Reed) Sea to a group of Romans and Greeks. To the Greek and Roman listeners it is obvious the sea was parted with the help of the god of the sea (one of the more formidable gods). The part where Moses raised his staff would no doubt be seen as magic or god like powers held by Moses or given to Moses through the auspices of the Chief god.
Now the Jew could argue all he wanted that there is no sea god in the story, that the sea has no power at all, nor does Moses possess any power, god like or otherwise. However, beliefs and perceptions would preclude any acceptance of the Jew’s interpretation, unless his Greek and Roman listeners were willing to abandon and reject their perceptions and beliefs.
More than mistranslations, more than changed tenses and pronouns, this is the essence of any discussion between Jews and Christians based on the Jewish scriptures.
The fact that the Jewish Scriptures begins with the story of Creation and of Adam and Eve has particular meaning in the context of Judaism. When seen through a prism of Jewish concepts, the story makes a wonderful coherent comprehensive whole. However, Jewish concepts as to good and evil, Satan and commandments, are not part of Christian beliefs. So it should come as no surprise that Christians wonder “if the story is true” and at Genesis 3:15 the man becomes Jesus, the woman Mary and Satan becomes the Christian definition of the Devil. It makes no difference that the Devil in the Christian sense is rejected by Judaism, that Jesus and Mary are not actually mentioned, because like the god of the sea in our example, they simply have to be there in the minds of the Christian reader.
Another good example is the story of Moses and the burning bush (I was asked about this in the framework of discussing “manifestations” of God. I presume that the argument is that the burning bush was a manifestation of God and mutatis mutandis, we can see the Christian leader as a manifestation of God in human form there was also mention of the spirit of God, suffice it to say that any discussion about the spirit of God and even the discussion in this thread, argues against any possibility that Jesus was the Messiah ben David as understood in Judaism].
The first thing that should strike the reader in the story of Moses and the burning bush, is why God didn’t just start talking to Moses? First there is an angel (in monotheistic Judaism an angel has no free will and is merely a messenger), than there is the burning bush ( a wonderful symbol and message to Moses about how the Children of Israel, with all the suffering and tribulations of slavery, will survive) and then God speaks to Moses. We see that Moses who has been brought up as an Egyptian prince away from the concept of the Hebrew God, has to be brought in steps to understand and recognize that he is talking to God. However, we should have no mistake that the burning bush is not how we should seek and understand God. God immediately tells Moses “do not come nearer to here”. In other words, don’t search for Me in the vision of the burning bush. The next thing God says emphasizes this point. Take off your shoes God says to Moses, in other words root yourself to the ground to the physical world in which you live. “For the place upon which you stand is holy ground” In other words, sanctity is to be found wherever you stand, wherever you are. You and your people are about to become partners with Me in the creation of holiness in this world. You will be challenged to sanctify God’s name in your everyday lives. The Divine Presence will be discovered not in the realm of mystery but in your daily activities and in your ongoing interactions with each other. Search for holiness Moses “where you stand”.
C
cshoremom
Guest
C
CopticChristian
Guest
Kanichen,
With this in mind, is it fair to say that Jews are waiting for a Messiah to re-establish an earthly kingdom similar to that of King David?
K
Kaninchen
Guest
If one asked a similar question to Christians about the Second Coming, one would get a range of answers between 'Rapture/Apocalypse Now (or in a few weeks time), possibly with literal horsemen, whore etc!" and “Well, err, um, it rather depends on what you mean by (all sorts of stuff) but yes, ok . . .”
We’re awfully good at ‘Well, err, um,’ so, here are some links to Jewish thought about Messiah -
Jewish Virtual Library, Judaism 101, and My Jewish Learning.
C
CopticChristian
Guest
Kanichen,
This is a Catholic Answer Forum and I am Catholic and if you ask me I would give you a Catholic Answer. I ask you and you send me to a link. What is your point of view?
I am not looking for a range of views, only one narrow view, yours. Are you able to provide it?
K
Kaninchen
Guest
I understand that but, after I’ve been insisting that Jewish answers have to be seen in a Jewish context rather than a Christian context, you can’t have imagined that I’d give an answer without some establishing of what ‘Messiah’ means in a Jewish context so as to avoid further questions framed from Christian perspectives.
Given that I’m averse to typing what’s available in links and that, where I live, Shabbat starts in a couple of hours so I’ve got lots to do, lengthy consideration isn’t exactly something you’re going to get, just take it that I’m towards the traditional end of the spectrum.
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
Coptic,
I can’t believe you are saying this to Kaninchen, when you wanted everyone to read Nicaea.
Pen
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
chosen people,
I appreciate your coming back to the discussion. I do realize that we all view the Hebrew Scriptures through our own beliefs and biases that are a result of those beliefs.
When I first started reading Jewish authors, I was surprised by the differences in our views, not just about Jesus; but also about good and evil, salvation, and the afterlife.
Very interesting comments.
The other appearances seem to be more “up close and personal.” How do you view these appearances?
**Abraham And Sarah At Mamre **Gereshit - Genesis 18:1-33
Hagar Bereshit - Genesis 16:9-13
**Jacob At Peniel ****Bereshit Genesis 32:24-43 **Did Jacob truly wrestle with God?
**Gideon Shoftim - Judges 6:11-24
Samson’s Parents Shoftim - Judges 13:2-23
In The Fiery Furnace Daniel 3:23-29
**
The Holy Scriptures - The Tanakh
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/copyrightGraphic.gif
I don’t quite understand what you are saying here. How does a discussion about the spirit of God argue against Jesus as the Messiah?
Thank you so much,
Anna
B
Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
One thing that I think is worth mentioning in this topic: I often hear, in these discussions, of the “Jewish concept” of the Old Testament, or “Jewish theology” spoken of in a kind of broad sense. However, is this a modern Jewish concept, or is this something that could be demonstrable, from contemporary sources, as an ancient Jewish concept as well? For example, a lot of Jews I interact with online (but not all) seem to act as if no Jew in history ever interpreted any verse in scripture as being a Messianic verse, or a contemporary as well as Messianic prophecy. Yet if you study ancient Jewish commentators, rabbis, and traditions, many of them stand over and against how many modern Jewish apologists, counter-missionaries, etc., interpret Jewish theology and the historical interpretation of scripture. Compare, for example, the opinions stated in the OP, with the findings of mine in my first post of the thread, such as the opinions of Maimonides and others, which actually contradict the position of the OP. If an opinion is going to be stated as an ancient one, that should be demonstrated as well. Otherwise, it is simply assumed.
We can certainly see this in Christian history, with the development of, say, a one bishop (episkopos) leadership with elders/priests (presbyteros) underneath, a development we find attested to not only in contemporary sources from early Christianity, but Church Fathers such as Jerome. I cite this not to go on a rabbit trail (which, knowing this forum, it most likely will), but to be fair and show that, from all faiths, there is some historical development. We do a disservice if we choose to read backwards and assume everything today is as it was thousands of years ago to the T.
To quote Woody Allen: “Tradition is the illusion of permanence.”
We can certainly see this in Christian history, with the development of, say, a one bishop (episkopos) leadership with elders/priests (presbyteros) underneath, a development we find attested to not only in contemporary sources from early Christianity, but Church Fathers such as Jerome. I cite this not to go on a rabbit trail (which, knowing this forum, it most likely will), but to be fair and show that, from all faiths, there is some historical development. We do a disservice if we choose to read backwards and assume everything today is as it was thousands of years ago to the T.
To quote Woody Allen: “Tradition is the illusion of permanence.”
C
CopticChristian
Guest
Pen name Anna, ma bud,Coptic,
I can’t believe you are saying this to Kaninchen, when you wanted everyone to read Nicaea.
Pen
I did not suggest that everyone read Nicea, what I suggested was looking at the OT scriptures used by the Council. I will see if I can find it. I have been busy. I will give a look.
Chosen people, thank you for responding. Your post illustrated a particular insight of Judaism that I believe many follow. It seems to me the that some view the scriptures as examples on how to live a moral life as a jew yet not necessarily in any supernatural occurrence. Two thousand years ago that group would be called the Sadducees. My goal is not to offend. Just state that was a particular view back then. And even today though its more a view spread through all faiths. Afterall it’s why there is a Benjamin Franklin bible. He was a deist. However he removed any supernatural content from the bible choosing to follow the moral conduct exclusively. I believe that is the crux of the issue. There are those that believe in a supernatural reality and those that don’t and live their lives accordingly. Sound about right?
Also I wanted to add that that view is not the only one. There is a radio show called go ask your father on relevant radio. It’s on at noon central time Monday through Friday. Every Monday and Wednesday there is a priest on named father Simon. He is a good friend with a man named Rabbi lebscowicz. I hope I didn’t butcher his name. He calls himself a modern day Pharasee. Why did I bring this up? Simple, just to show that Judaism is complex. There are many different views of it then and now. Though today’s views tend to fall into a few different schools of thought Such as orthodox, conservative, and reformed. Each with their own views of Judaism. Father Simon contends that some time in the past when they were codifying the the scriptures in Judaism after the destruction of the temple they kept a lot of their traditions and placed a higher importance on the teachings and the Talmund and dropped the Thanksgiving sacrifice as it could only be done at The Temple which was destroyed in 70 ad or sometime around that. The Christians which were Jews kept the thanksgiving sacrifice and the scriptures as we see Jesus as the unblemished Paschal lamb that was sacrificed for us. We can both rightly call ourselves Israel. We are simply siblings in faith. However the kami is right it’s not accurate to say Christianity is Judaism plus Jesus. It’s more complex than that.
C
Candescent
Guest
Byzantine_Wolf;10309665 For example said:
C
cargills112
Guest
well there was a time i cannot sleep if i do not win an argument, but being a Christian doesn’t mean you have preach it to everyone and prove it to everyone
C
Candescent
Guest
Here is one yes answer to that question:
chabadcenter.com/library/moshiach/article_cdo/aid/1157486/jewish/Introduction.htm
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
Is there anyone who will answer this question? It seems to have gotten lost.
)
Regarding Isaiah 7, the Virgin Prophesy:
“The fact that no one will explain how this prophesy was fulfilled in a contemporary context is very disappointing to me, Jewish objections aside. If the prophesy was fulfilled in the time of King Ahaz, there would have been a woman who bore a child, whose coming of age, provided a time frame for events to occur. If this were the case, how can one read a “virginal” conception into a future prophesy?”
Anna
(Taken out of quote, so it can be quoted and answered
)Regarding Isaiah 7, the Virgin Prophesy:
“The fact that no one will explain how this prophesy was fulfilled in a contemporary context is very disappointing to me, Jewish objections aside. If the prophesy was fulfilled in the time of King Ahaz, there would have been a woman who bore a child, whose coming of age, provided a time frame for events to occur. If this were the case, how can one read a “virginal” conception into a future prophesy?”
Anna
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
No one has answered this point.
**Why would God say we are not to put our trust in a son of man, in whom there is no salvation, when God would send His son, who would be called the Son of Man and accomplish our salvation? **
Psalm 146:3-4
English Standard Version (ESV)
3 (A)Put not your trust in princes,
((“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm 146:3-4&version=ESV#cen-ESV-16345B”))in a son of man, in whom there is (C)no salvation.**
4 When (D)his breath departs, he returns to the earth;
on that very day his plans perish.
Cross references:
A. Psalm 146:3 : Ps. 118:9
B. Psalm 146:3 : [Isa. 2:22; Jer. 17:5]
C. Psalm 146:3 : Ps. 60:11; 108:12
D. Psalm 146:4 : ; See Job 10:9; 34:14, 15
Psalm 118:8
English Standard Version (ESV)
8 (A)It is better to take refuge in the Lord
(**(“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ps 118:8, Isa 2:22, Jer 17:5&version=ESV#cen-ESV-15878B”))than to trust in man.
Cross references:
A. Psalm 118:8 : [Ps. 40:4; 62:8]
B. Psalm 118:8 : Ps. 146:3
Isaiah 2:22
English Standard Version (ESV)
22 (A)Stop regarding man
(**(“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ps 118:8, Isa 2:22, Jer 17:5&version=ESV#cen-ESV-17708B”))in whose nostrils is breath,
for of what account is he?
Cross references:
A. Isaiah 2:22 : Ps. 146:3
B. Isaiah 2:22 : [James 4:14],
Also, no one answered this:
Of whom does Isaiah Chapter 11 speak?
**Isaiah 11 **
New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
The Peaceful Kingdom
11 A shoot shall come out from the stump of Jesse,
and a branch shall grow out of his roots.
2 The spirit of the Lord shall rest on him,
the spirit of wisdom and understanding,
the spirit of counsel and might,
the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.**
3 His delight shall be in the fear of the Lord.**
He shall not judge by what his eyes see,
or decide by what his ears hear;
4 but with righteousness he shall judge the poor,
and decide with equity for the meek of the earth;
he shall strike the earth with the rod of his mouth,
and with the breath of his lips he shall kill the wicked.
5 Righteousness shall be the belt around his waist,
and faithfulness the belt around his loins.
6 The wolf shall live with the lamb,
the leopard shall lie down with the kid,
the calf and the lion and the fatling together,
and a little child shall lead them.
7 The cow and the bear shall graze,
their young shall lie down together;
and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 The nursing child shall play over the hole of the asp,
and the weaned child shall put its hand on the adder’s den.
9 They will not hurt or destroy
on all my holy mountain;
for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea.
M
MartinJordan
Guest
Also who did St. Stephen see while he was being stoned to death? He seemed to have no qualms that the Son of Man is of Majesty so how can it be that A Son Of Man cannot be trusted? Perhaps "a Son of Man is not the same as THE Son of Man. 
MJ
MJ
- Status