How to Respond to Old Testament Violence?

[Tomdstone]

And how many Roman Catholics follow the command to be perfect? How does that differ from those in the OT who followed the very difficult 600+ commandments of God, which have since been rejected by Roman Catholics?
Matthew 19:21 Jesus told him, “If you want to be perfect, go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
Out of the 1 billion Roman Catholics, how many have sold everything they have and given it all to the poor?
How many married Roman Catholics in the USA follow the rules of the Church against the use of artificial contraception?

 

[Tomdstone]

https://imgur.com/jFi4HM3

Matthew 19:21 Jesus told him, “If you want to be perfect, go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
Has anyone here followed that advice?

 

[PRmerger]

Matthew 19:21 Jesus told him, “If you want to be perfect, go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
Has anyone here followed that advice?

Not literally. But I certainly have raised my hand to do this.

 

[Sky_River]

God is unchanging. His covenants with man, however, do change. If they do not, you might have to find a Rabbi with a scalpel.

The covenants do change God’s nature, because God ordered things in the Old Covenant that would totally go against what he considers right and wrong in the New Covenant.

 

[Tomdstone]

Not literally.

That’s the big difference. The 600+ commandments in the OT were to be taken literally and seriously. People were to follow them. The commandment in the NT to be perfect is to be taken figuratively. Roman Catholics don’t take God’s commandment given in Matthew 19:21 seriously. The proof is in the statistics and the fact that many Roman Catholics receive Holy Communion even though they have not sold everything they have and given all their money to the poor. How many priests would say it is a mortal sin if you do not sell everything you have and if you do not give all your money to the poor? Can you even give one example? However, it is considered to be a sin by Orthodox Jews to violate even one of the 600+ commandments. This is why I am inclined to believe that the rules in the OT were more difficult to follow than those in the NT. The rules in the OT were rather rigid. The rule in the NT about selling everything you have and giving all your money to the poor is IMHO an example of a rule which is somewhat flexible.

 

[PRmerger]

That’s the big difference. The 600+ commandments in the OT were to be taken literally and seriously. People were to follow them.

You are correct.

The commandment in the NT to be perfect is to be taken figuratively.

No. It also is to be taken literally.

The part that is figurative is the selling all of one’s possessions.

Roman Catholics don’t take God’s commandment given in Matthew 19:21 seriously

Not sure it’s a good idea to look at some Roman Catholics and extrapolate it to me.

I do indeed take it seriously.

And I propose that were you to take a poll of all the Catholics here on the CAFs and ask them: do you take the commandment in Matthew 19:21 seriously…
the answer would be a resounding “yes!”.

The proof is in the statistics and the fact that many Roman Catholics receive Holy Communion even though they have not sold everything they have and given all their money to the poor.

It’s a little judgy of you to indict these RCs. How do you know what they have given up to follow Him?

I can tell you that I have given up some things that I treasured dearly in order to follow Him.

So if you saw me receive communion, while I drive up to my Church in my nice car, wearing nice clothes, you would assume, incorrectly, that I haven’t given heed to God’s commandment.

And you would be judging incorrectly.

So be verrryyyyy careful what you’re asserting here, Tomdstone.

How many priests would say it is a mortal sin if you do not sell everything you have and if you do not give all your money to the poor?

No one ought to be saying that. Because it’s not the teaching of Christ.

Can you even give one example?

No. Because Christ didn’t command us to do this, literally.

However, it is considered to be a sin by Orthodox Jews to violate even one of the 600+ commandments. This is why I am inclined to believe that the rules in the OT were more difficult to follow than those in the NT.

Perhaps for you. Perhaps for others. But not for Christians.

The rules in the OT were rather rigid. The rule in the NT about selling everything you have and giving all your money to the poor is IMHO an example of a rule which is somewhat flexible.

But being perfect is not. Nor is following Him. Not flexible at all.

 

[Tomdstone]

I can tell you that I have given up some things that I treasured dearly in order to follow Him.

But did you…" go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor"?

 

[PRmerger]

But did you…" go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor"?

No.

That is not what Christ wanted us to do. Just like he doesn’t want us to cut off our hand if it’s giving us trouble. Or hate our brother or mother or father.

 

[Tomdstone]

It’s a little judgy of you to indict these RCs. How do you know what they have given up to follow Him?

They are driving to Church in cars. That indicates that they have not sold these cars and given the money to the poor. So they did not follow the commandment to be perfect because Our Divine Lord said that if you want to be perfect: “go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor.”
This differs from the 600+ OT laws and commandments which were to be obeyed literally.

 

[PRmerger]

They are driving to Church in cars. That indicates that they have not sold these cars and given the money to the poor. So they did not follow the commandment to be perfect because Our Divine Lord said that if you want to be perfect: “go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor.”

It has already been explained to you that Christ did command us to be perfect. We Catholics take that very seriously.

It does not mean that we must literally sell all our possessions. Just like we do not literally need to cut off our hands.

If you keep repeating what has already been explained to you, you will be reported. It indicates a recusant attitude and inability to dialogue.

This differs from the 600+ OT laws and commandments which were to be obeyed literally.

I don’t think anyone disagrees with that. It is different from the 600+ OT laws.

 

[Tomdstone]

That is not what Christ wanted us to do. Just like he doesn’t want us to cut off our hand if it’s giving us trouble. Or hate our brother or mother or father.

That is why I do not agree with:

I do not see how the NT is more difficult since as you have been pointed out, the commandments are to be taken figuratively in the the NT, whereas the 600+ commandments are taken literally in the OT.

 

[Gorgias]

I dont get the joke about the rabbi with a scalpel.

i.e., if covenants don’t change, then we’re still under the Mosaic covenant… and therefore, it’s necessary for all men to be circumsized.

 

[Gorgias]

And how many Roman Catholics follow the command to be perfect?

Do you understand what that command means? The word used here is τέλειος – that is, to reach the goal of your life. It doesn’t mean that everything that you do is without error, but rather, that’s you’ve become what God intended you to be. I think that many Roman Catholics have this as their intent!

Matthew 19:21 Jesus told him, “If you want to be perfect, go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

Again, knowledge of Greek is helpful here:

“If you (singular) want to be perfect, go (singular) and sell (singular) all your (singular) possessions… then come (singular), follow (singular) me.”

Jesus is talking to this one young man; as part of the conversation, Jesus invites him to leave everything and become part of his itinerant ministry. He did not make this offer to everyone, did He?

Out of the 1 billion Roman Catholics, how many have sold everything they have and given it all to the poor?

Did Jesus ask everyone to sell everything, or did He ask this one man?

How many married Roman Catholics in the USA follow the rules of the Church against the use of artificial contraception?

I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make. How many non-Catholic Christians follow Jesus’ command to not divorce? Does this mean that no one is attempting to be ‘perfect’?

 

[Sky_River]

i.e.,** if covenants don’t change, then we’re still under the Mosaic covenant.**… and therefore, it’s necessary for all men to be circumsized.

Were the Israelites who didnt become Christians after Jesus was crucified, still living under the Old Covenant? For example, after Jesus died on the cross, were the Israelites still morally obligated by God to stone adulterers and other sinners?

 

[po18guy]

I dont get the joke about the rabbi with a scalpel.

A little circumcision humor, if that’s possible

 

[Gorgias]

Were the Israelites who didnt become Christians after Jesus was crucified, still living under the Old Covenant? For example, after Jesus died on the cross, were the Israelites still morally obligated by God to stone adulterers and other sinners?

Again, “circumcision joke.” Speaking to a Gentile audience, the point is “if the covenant didn’t change, then it’s the Mosaic covenant we’re under, so get ready to get circumsized”…

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

It does not mean that we must literally sell all our possessions. Just like we do not literally need to cut off our hands.

I agree that Jesus wasn’t making a blanket statement that everybody needs to lose all possessions. I think it just meant in the particular case of the rich man who walked away sadly, Jesus knew where his worldly attachments were; in his stuff. :twocents:

When the rich man first came to Jesus, Jesus just gave him a standard answer – obey the commandments. But when he said he really wanted to “go all the way” then Jesus knew exactly where his heart was, and struck him with the sword of His Word right in it. :knight2:

It’s hard for one with worldly power and riches to ehnter the kingdom, because they have a mindset that these things are what they need to survive and that working for these things will fix problems. But that’s on earth, not in heaven. In heaven we rely on God alone. People who have lived in poverty, at least have had the experience of depending on others, and that of somehow always getting through even though there seems to be no hope for tomorrow.

For some of us, worldly possessions aren’t even the hardest thing to give up. Anger and bitterness, and prejudice, and judgment, and anxiety (worry about tomorrow) are all things we hang onto and are always niggling us in ways that distract us from God. :banghead:

Oopss … getting off soapbox now… kpeople:

MS

 

[clem456]

God is unchanging. Period, end of story. He is unmovable.
There are not two God’s.
God cannot have meticulous care for the dignity of the human person (thank you Saint JP2) in 2014, and be a vengeful God literally commanding slaughter in the OT. It’s not possible that God cared less for human life, and for the establishment of a merciful world, in ancient times, that he does in the present moment. All moments are present for God, and he is one in his love for humanity and his desire that we love one another.

How can this seeming contradiction be reconciled?
It’s actually quite simple.

The Church as the people of God is a living organism. Understanding of God develops over time in mankind’s heart and mind. This is why the Church teaches that the Magisterium is living.
Man’s understanding of God is organic, we are not perfect creatures with perfect understanding.

12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

This is why Benedict instructs us to read the scriptures with an eye to the context/culture they were written in, and especially in the light of the person of Jesus Christ.

It’s a difficult thing to accept, but it is possible the OT authors ascribed to God motivations to justify and understand the things happening in the world around them they could not understand. We do this all the time ourselves, one day blaming God for something, the next day thanking God for that new car, the next day hearing God “telling us” to follow this course or that course. Are these all literal directions from God? The saints tell us to have healthy discretion in this area. Our ears are not perfect.

But it is a fact that despite the imperfections of the authors, the scriptures are 100% Inspired. Inspiration does not require a perfect human author. That’s what we have Jesus Christ for.

 

[Sky_River]

**In the OT, before the Incarnation, God used various people, races, wars, violence, etc to carryout His justice. There was only reward (mercy) for doing right, and contemporaneous punishment (justice) for violating God’s commandments. That all changed at the Incarnation. All justice has been handed over to His Son, **who was sent not to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. Thus, we do not see NT wars against Chaldeans or Moabites, since it is not the Old Covenant, but the new covenant in Christ’s Blood. The Hebrews have been scattered across the face of the earth and all nations are now subject to the Son. What we will experience is the judgment of the earth at the end of time - which might be today. So, we are to “watch.”

Other than Israel wiping out Caananite nations, are there any other examples in the Old Testament of how God uses wars and violence to carry out justice against the wicked?

The main thing that confuses me about the OT is how Israel seems to be treated differently than the surrounding nations, in the sense that God never orders any other nation to go to war carry out justice, but only Israel.

 

[PRmerger]

Other than Israel wiping out Caananite nations, are there any other examples in the Old Testament of how God uses wars and violence to carry out justice against the wicked?

The main thing that confuses me about the OT is how Israel seems to be treated differently than the surrounding nations, in the sense that God never orders any other nation to go to war carry out justice, but only Israel.

You mean by sending a non-Jewish prophet to another tribe?