How to take a stand on illegal immigration?

[pnewton]

Stop hiding behind the bible and defend your country!

Yet you wrote, invoking the Bible:

God has blessed this country because its people were always willing to make the supreme sacrifice of Laying down his life for his friends and countrymen. That’s in the Bible TOO!

This is not a question of Catholic. This is about are YOU willing to make those same sacrifices so this country will continue to be in the hands of the righteous.

This is a question of what will it take for Americans to rise up in their righteous might and defend their OWN culture, their OWN society, their OWN people who have defended the world in all those wars in the 20th century while their Mexican neighbors did not lift a finger to help.

This particular rhetoric is right out of a white supremist handbook. You will find few takers here, even among strict law-enforcement types. For you, Catholicism and the Bible may have nothing to do with the issue. But that is because a man can not serve two masters. If our allegience to God does not take precedence over our allegience to our country and our “culture,” then we make that our god and become idolators. Please re-think this position and Feliz Navidad.

 

[siamesecat]

To dump children inside our borders is THEIR GRAND STRATEGY. It’s nothing that hasn’t been tried before in other parts of the world at other times in history.

I am not a politician so I will not disguise my words with clever prose. These people are invading the US. They are soldiers without uniforms. They will never become Americans but will force Americans to their culture.

OPEN YOUR EYES!

I highly doubt the Mexicans all have one big conspiracy to overtake the US. And you say the US has been blessed - then why does the US have so many moral problems against Catholic teaching? Most people here seem to think that most Americans lack values. It seems the Mexicans are generally more faithful Catholics. So maybe from a Catholic perspective we’d be better off with their culture. God wouldn’t care about whose “culture” we follow - I highly doubt he would deem American culture superior or Mexican culture superior. God wouldn’t care about culture - he’d care about faith.

 

[Bullfighter]

I highly doubt the Mexicans all have one big conspiracy to overtake the US. And you say the US has been blessed - then why does the US have so many moral problems against Catholic teaching? Most people here seem to think that most Americans lack values. It seems the Mexicans are generally more faithful Catholics. So maybe from a Catholic perspective we’d be better off with their culture. God wouldn’t care about whose “culture” we follow - I highly doubt he would deem American culture superior or Mexican culture superior. God wouldn’t care about culture - he’d care about faith.

You should see my neighborhood. 80% Mexican and 10% of those actually go to Church. Now if I’m not mistaken, to miss Sunday Mass is a mortal sin. But all are considered loyal church going Catholics.

Well, maybe God let’s Mexicans off the hook. You know, because they’re poor, hard working, hung over from the parties that go on till 4 AM.

If I’m not mistaken, Thou shall not covet thy neighbor’s goods apply to Mexicans hopping over the border and pretending to be whoever with fake IDs, getting loans for 2008 SUVs, etc.

Well, maybe God let’s the Mexicans off the hook. You know, they spend long hours teaching their children gang symbols, how to spray paint American homes and garages, etc.

Yep! Those Mexican values. Just don’t get caught!

 

[Bullfighter]

Yet you wrote, invoking the Bible:
This particular rhetoric is right out of a white supremist handbook. You will find few takers here, even among strict law-enforcement types. For you, Catholicism and the Bible may have nothing to do with the issue. But that is because a man can not serve two masters. If our allegience to God does not take precedence over our allegience to our country and our “culture,” then we make that our god and become idolators. Please re-think this position and Feliz Navidad.

Oh, your one of those I’m CATHOLIC except when no one is looking.

Isn’t it nice that all those white people fought all those wars so LA RAZA (maybe we shouldn’t use the Mexican master race wording) can just walk across the border and take what Americans won the hard way.

I think Mexico lost around 100 people in World War 2 and all on freighters, none in battle. What a victory for Mexico!

But Brazil sent 25,000 troops to the Italian campaign. Yes! A country as poor as Brazil still sent troops.

America does not forget its allies! or its enemies!

 

[siamesecat]

You should see my neighborhood. 80% Mexican and 10% of those actually go to Church. Now if I’m not mistaken, to miss Sunday Mass is a mortal sin. But all are considered loyal church going Catholics.

Well, maybe God let’s Mexicans off the hook. You know, because they’re poor, hard working, hung over from the parties that go on till 4 AM.

If I’m not mistaken, Thou shall not covet thy neighbor’s goods apply to Mexicans hopping over the border and pretending to be whoever with fake IDs, getting loans for 2008 SUVs, etc.

Well, maybe God let’s the Mexicans off the hook. You know, they spend long hours teaching their children gang symbols, how to spray paint American homes and garages, etc.

Yep! Those Mexican values. Just don’t get caught!

I think it’s being pretty general to call that “Mexican culture”. There are pockets of poverty and gangs of all ethnicities - it’s a consequence of a cycle of poverty and lack of education. it’s not right, and I understand you find it frustrating. But to say all Mexicans teach their kids to be irresponsible criminals is not charitable. That is racism to be that general. There are very poor white communities in places in the US that have the same problems we generally associate with minorities. It’s a cycle of poverty and laziness; not a racial thing. There are many very hard working Mexcians. I’m not saying illegal immigration is right - and certainly gangrelated behavior is not - but I don’t look at that as Mexican culture, and it certainly is not something restricted to illegal immigrants. Classifying any behavior as a purely ethnic one is prejudiced.

 

[Bullfighter]

I think it’s being pretty general to call that “Mexican culture”. There are pockets of poverty and gangs of all ethnicities - it’s a consequence of a cycle of poverty and lack of education. it’s not right, and I understand you find it frustrating. But to say all Mexicans teach their kids to be irresponsible criminals is not charitable. That is racism to be that general. There are very poor white communities in places in the US that have the same problems we generally associate with minorities. It’s a cycle of poverty and laziness; not a racial thing. There are many very hard working Mexcians. I’m not saying illegal immigration is right - and certainly gangrelated behavior is not - but I don’t look at that as Mexican culture, and it certainly is not something restricted to illegal immigrants. Classifying any behavior as a purely ethnic one is prejudiced.

It takes far more courage to act when the choices for action are repugnant, than to take no action and deny all responsibility for what happens. To make no decision at all is not to avoid responsibility; it is to endorse whatever decision is reached by others. It is meaningless to oppose a plan, however onerous the plan may be, if you offer no substitute course of action. Sticking your head in the sand does not absolve you from responsibility for what happens around you. Doing nothing is no solution to a moral dilemma but merely avoidance of a solution.

Christians are, therefore, faced with a dilemma: when assaulted by evil, they must oppose it through direct action. They have no other option. Any failure to act is simply to condone evil.
Ethics… Dietrich Bonhoeffer

 

[siamesecat]

It takes far more courage to act when the choices for action are repugnant, than to take no action and deny all responsibility for what happens. To make no decision at all is not to avoid responsibility; it is to endorse whatever decision is reached by others. It is meaningless to oppose a plan, however onerous the plan may be, if you offer no substitute course of action. Sticking your head in the sand does not absolve you from responsibility for what happens around you. Doing nothing is no solution to a moral dilemma but merely avoidance of a solution.

Christians are, therefore, faced with a dilemma: when assaulted by evil, they must oppose it through direct action. They have no other option. Any failure to act is simply to condone evil.
Ethics… Dietrich Bonhoeffer

I believe in immigration reform to make LEGAL immigration easier, and programs to help illegals become citizens with requirements of working and learning English. I support the deportation of people who have criminal backgrounds or other problems that are causing problems in the US. I believe children brought to the US before the age of 13 should be allowed to become citizens. I support strict border patrol and deportation of the dangerous - but not shooting anyone or acting violently unless the person themselves is violent or carrying drugs or something.

 

[pnewton]

Oh, your one of those I’m CATHOLIC except when no one is looking.

I guess your judgementalism knows no bounds. You do not know me from Adam, much less what I am like in private. Yet you presume to slander based on practically no information. You are proving the old idiom that the most bigoted among us are also the most ignorant. For example, you call all hispanics “Mexicans” where as most hispanics are Americans. Even a large number of immigrants are Central American. You also continue to compare illegal immigration to Nazism. This comparison is absurd in the extreme. Immigrants do not use tanks and planes. They do not exterminate people by the millions in death camps for their religious and political beliefs. This is the evil Bonhoeffer faced.

Spewing hatred and personal animousity will not convince anyone here of anything on the issue and only reflect on you personally. No doubt you feel deeply wronged at sometime by someone of darker skin, but the ranting and raving are best suited to some other forum than this.

And yes, I am Catholic at all times, not just when convenient. Even when in a situation of using violence and force, I strive to do so while carrying my convictions and faith with me.

 

[Bullfighter]

I believe in immigration reform to make LEGAL immigration easier, and programs to help illegals become citizens with requirements of working and learning English. I support the deportation of people who have criminal backgrounds or other problems that are causing problems in the US. I believe children brought to the US before the age of 13 should be allowed to become citizens. I support strict border patrol and deportation of the dangerous - but not shooting anyone or acting violently unless the person themselves is violent or carrying drugs or something.

What you are saying is “Mexico, America surrenders!” That is precisely what they had in mind. “Americans are weak and corrupt. They will never defend their own country from an infiltrating civilian force because it will make them feel un christian.”

But the real truth is that individual Americans must take this country back from those who would collaborate with the enemy, just as those traitors collaborated with the invading Axis armies during WW2.

Until Americans begin to view themselves as Americans first and anything else second, the problem will never be solved and evil will penetrate our country.

Until Americans are willing to sacrifice their own lives for what Americans of the past fought so hard to accomplish, there will be no justice for America and Americans will starve on the streets of their own country while the invading enemy removes the wealth of this nation and move it to their own corrupt countries.

Your ideas just encourage more people from Latin America to invade and steal from the US. Why not? No one is stopping them. Any politician who supports these people is getting rewarded for doing so. This is the pay back for sending billions of dollars in medical aid and humanitarian effort so those people will live longer lives. This is how Mexico says “Thank You!”

Every word I say can be proved with documented evidence. The trouble is, no one cares! As long as their own families live in safe neighborhoods, they live in warm homes, and they have good jobs, these “christians” will not lift a finger to save their own people and the future of America for America’s children.

Merry Christmas

 

[joe_clark]

I’m an American who doesn’t want to see his country destroyed by an invading army. I’m an American who is disgusted to see all the help that the invading army has been getting through what should be a neutral charity available to all people.

If that makes me a racist, I would be proud to be called one.

If you want change then talk to your politicians, the ones waving the American flag and chanting “out with the illegals” while pocketing large amounts of campaign cash from the owners of businesses located in the south where they use, abuse and prosper from the immigrants while hosing down Americans. The invasion of illegal immigrants covers the spectrum. German, Irish, Italian, Russian, Mexican, African ect. If this country were to actually clamp down, that would mean they clamp down on ALL. This is the other consideration AMERICAN - of German, Irish, Italian, Russian, Mexican, African decent politicians currently serving in this country. Your country, OUR country is allowing this. Don’t blame people that are allowed to make a better life for taking up the offer.

Please step lightly here. Unless you are an American Indian, your family came over to this land on a boat and you are from a family of immigrants. This is what made our country great. This is what made our country survive. Immgrants are welcome with a few rules enforced.

 

[Bullfighter]

I guess your judgementalism knows no bounds. You do not know me from Adam, much less what I am like in private. Yet you presume to slander based on practically no information. You are proving the old idiom that the most bigoted among us are also the most ignorant. For example, you call all hispanics “Mexicans” where as most hispanics are Americans. Even a large number of immigrants are Central American. You also continue to compare illegal immigration to Nazism. This comparison is absurd in the extreme. Immigrants do not use tanks and planes. They do not exterminate people by the millions in death camps for their religious and political beliefs. This is the evil Bonhoeffer faced.

Spewing hatred and personal animousity will not convince anyone here of anything on the issue and only reflect on you personally. No doubt you feel deeply wronged at sometime by someone of darker skin, but the ranting and raving are best suited to some other forum than this.

And yes, I am Catholic at all times, not just when convenient. Even when in a situation of using violence and force, I strive to do so while carrying my convictions and faith with me.

No native born south of the US border is to anyone else on any other continent considered “American”. Everywhere else in the world, an American is someone from the United States of America. PERIOD! I didn’t create that, the world did!

The words hispanic, latino, la raza, etc are terms invented by those who choose to group themselves in the most favorable light for the moment. Now these Latin American groups are working together to defeat a common enemy, “America”! By the way, LA RAZA is their version of “master race”. Didn’t the Nazi think of themselves as the “master race”. But I would want to make that comparison. That would make me a racist, but only in their eyes!

I can’t think of a single other case in which a foreign language (Spanish) had been forced on the US citizen. Why is this if they want to be good US citizens. The entire world is switching to the English language for financial and diplomatic reasons. It is the most popular second language in the World. However, even Mexicans who can speak English fluently insist on teaching their children Spanish as their primary language. Why would anyone do that?

You attack me for your crazy notion of hating people with darker skins when, in fact, I am defending my brother American who happens to be black. They are loyal US Americans who have an unbroken record of loyalty to the United States of America. It is the coward who wishes to see them in chains again and give their jobs, their homes, their futures to people who never lifted a finger to help America during all the wars Americans fought.

If you are truly a christian, you must sacrifice. No American will ever enter the kingdom of heaven without first sacrificing themselves for the glory of what America represents. JUSTICE!

It is not justice when a country with a population of less than 2% of the World can force its way into America and try to dominate and control the culture.

Is that fair to the other 200+ countries of the World? Most with far greater poverty than any Latin American country. But you call me a racist!

 

[aspawloski4th]

In this debate over illegal immigration, I’d like to bring up some things from personal experience. Emergency rooms, As a sufferer of frequent kidneystones in my past Iv’e seen the emergency room a few times. Ican remember plenty of times the one I go to being overfilled with Hispanics not speaking English bringing kids in for obvious colds and the like. Maybe its time one has to prove they are an American citizen to use American hospitals. I’m a Dominos driver and have been for 15+ years. We have a strict policy of accepting no 50s or 100s. It’s the Hispanics that are most likely by far to get out a 50 to pay for the order. If they are having such a hard time how can they afford to carry 50 dollar bills while I can’t even afford to look at one? Last as a pizza driver I 'm exposed to what they watch on tv and listen to on the radio, and their entertasinment is strictly Hispanic, that they watch and listen to.
While Bosnians and Koreans learn English and otherwise assimilate the Hispanics generally with few exceptions don’t. I say if you are an undocumented immigrant you go back where you came from and then come here the correct way. Before any one starts calling me racist too, please note this is personal experience I’m speaking from here. Also note I gave positive credit for assimilation to 2 groups that are “darker skinned” people. Also of notce my wife babysits for a young Hispanic lady who is here 100% legally so this is not an issue of race. undocumeneted illigrants should be treated the same and any other law breakers, and shipped back.

 

[aspawloski4th]

If you want change then talk to your politicians, the ones waving the American flag and chanting “out with the illegals” while pocketing large amounts of campaign cash from the owners of businesses located in the south where they use, abuse and prosper from the immigrants while hosing down Americans. The invasion of illegal immigrants covers the spectrum. German, Irish, Italian, Russian, Mexican, African ect. If this country were to actually clamp down, that would mean they clamp down on ALL. This is the other consideration AMERICAN - of German, Irish, Italian, Russian, Mexican, African decent politicians currently serving in this country. Your country, OUR country is allowing this. Don’t blame people that are allowed to make a better life for taking up the offer.

Please step lightly here. Unless you are an American Indian, your family came over to this land on a boat and you are from a family of immigrants. This is what made our country great. This is what made our country survive. Immgrants are welcome with a few rules enforced.

All 100% of my ancestors came here documented and legal. Which are from Austria, Poland, Germany, The Netherlands, England, and Ireland. There are a few Native American familys in my area who may not have survived 100 years ago if it weren’t for my Irish ancestors charity twards them. I just want immigration to be documented , orderly, and legal.

 

[siamesecat]

Until Americans begin to view themselves as Americans first and anything else second, the problem will never be solved and evil will penetrate our country.

Merry Christmas

Yeah I don’t think that’s what the Church teaches. I don’t think anyone can call themselves a nationality first and a religion second and still claim to be devout. And, in your later post, you say American is most important because of justice. While most of America does live up to Christian ideals, it’s not only America that is just, and much of America is not just. I strongly disagree with the notion of defending all of America at all costs. It’s far from perfect. I don’t really know why I’'m arguing considering I can’t really argue against conspiracies - by definition they are irrational.

 

[Viki63]

To dump children inside our borders is THEIR GRAND STRATEGY. It’s nothing that hasn’t been tried before in other parts of the world at other times in history.

I am not a politician so I will not disguise my words with clever prose. These people are invading the US. They are soldiers without uniforms. They will never become Americans but will force Americans to their culture.

This is paranoia.
Mass migrations have taken place throughout history, it’s nothing new. It’s not an invasion, it’s a migration, with ebbs and flows. Americans are not reproducing themselves, so immigrants who do will continue to increase in numbers – they value their children more highly.
Maybe in 50 years the southern US will be more hispanic. Big deal. We need to work so that they will assimilate American values such as independence, assertiveness, fairness and compassion. Of course those are not exclusively American values. The important thing is that America continues to strive - imperfectly - to be a place where people can practice their faith in peace, and live relatively free from government interference. We stray farther and farther from that goal, unfortunately.

 

[Bullfighter]

Yeah I don’t think that’s what the Church teaches. I don’t think anyone can call themselves a nationality first and a religion second and still claim to be devout. And, in your later post, you say American is most important because of justice. While most of America does live up to Christian ideals, it’s not only America that is just, and much of America is not just. I strongly disagree with the notion of defending all of America at all costs. It’s far from perfect. I don’t really know why I’'m arguing considering I can’t really argue against conspiracies - by definition they are irrational.

Before you criticize my ideas of fighting for this country, ask yourself: What if the American Civil War had never been fought. The South had a valid concern of losing their economy if slavery was abolished. The North wanted to free slaves but not start a war doing it.

You decide. Was that a just war. Remember it’s original goal was to bring the South back into the Union and not about freeing slaves.

 

[siamesecat]

Before you criticize my ideas of fighting for this country, ask yourself: What if the American Civil War had never been fought. The South had a valid concern of losing their economy if slavery was abolished. The North wanted to free slaves but not start a war doing it.

You decide. Was that a just war. Remember it’s original goal was to bring the South back into the Union and not about freeing slaves.

I don’t see how this is related to anything I said. I don’t think any war is “just” - I just think many are understandable. Actually, WWII seems pretty just to me, but I don’t think the reasons we went in were necessarily “just”, but they were understandable. Do I totally see why the North felt it important and just to preserve the country? Yes…it was logical and I think they had good intentions. Same for the South’s feelings. I understand why both sides felt the way they did…but I don’t think it was “just”. I think it’s very hard to judge most wars as “just”. About the only ones I can think of are self-defense and to stop extreme abuse by a government. But do I feel passionately that the North had every right to preserve the union? No. If the US were split in two, I don’t think that would have been immoral. Countries are just claimed areas with different governments. My loyalty isn’t to my country in terms of its geography and past, its to certain ideas that the US currently espouses along with other people. I feel strongly about freedom and opportunity - and I am loyal to those ideas over the US as an entity.

 

[Bullfighter]

If you want change then talk to your politicians, the ones waving the American flag and chanting “out with the illegals” while pocketing large amounts of campaign cash from the owners of businesses located in the south where they use, abuse and prosper from the immigrants while hosing down Americans. The invasion of illegal immigrants covers the spectrum. German, Irish, Italian, Russian, Mexican, African ect. If this country were to actually clamp down, that would mean they clamp down on ALL. This is the other consideration AMERICAN - of German, Irish, Italian, Russian, Mexican, African decent politicians currently serving in this country. Your country, OUR country is allowing this. Don’t blame people that are allowed to make a better life for taking up the offer.

Please step lightly here. Unless you are an American Indian, your family came over to this land on a boat and you are from a family of immigrants. This is what made our country great. This is what made our country survive. Immgrants are welcome with a few rules enforced.

What makes America great is to use the system that serves the most people in the best way. American politicians will not act in the best interest of the majority until they see that Americans will fight for their country.

I don’t remember one word said about helping the American poor in the entire Presidential campaign and the immigrant issue was carefully sidestepped.

By the way, the flags being waved at those immigration rallies are MEXICAN. If those rallies were happening during the turn of the 20th Century, we would have invaded Mexico again, and made sure it would never be a threat to any US citizens again.

You bring up immigrants from various parts of the world, but I know from personal experience that many of those are forced to leave while Mexicans and others from Latin America have all sorts of help on this side of the border to fight removal even when caught for criminal acts.

I know from relatives that Polish people leave when their visas expire but Mexicans dig in their heals and fight. And the irony is that Polish troops are in Iraq as part of our allied force there and Mexico has yet to help America in any conflict since the beings of the United States.

Not one of the foreign countries you have mention above has ever tried to force their culture on the US except Mexico.

The “American Indian” story is old and tired and no one would visit the North American continent if forced to live in teepees which would be the case even today. The rational that we should all feel sorry for the American Indian is removed when during the French and Indian War even the most harden soldiers were appauld to see the Indians disembowl those who surrendered. The word “savage” when applied to the American Indian was appropriate. But that is never brought up because we have all been trained since birth to feel sorry for those less fortunate than us, and our enemies know this and use it to their advantage.

Lastly, we are NOT all immigrants. The majority of our population is still descendant from settlers. A settler is definitely not an immigrant. The word “immigrant” has been used ad nauseum, by people trying to promote their own agenda. I suggest you read “Clash of Civilizations” or “Who Are We” .2 excellent books by Harvard Professor Samuel P. Huntington.

In the end, the only thing that makes one more American than another is which country would you fight for, if the two were at war. We know which one German, Japanese, Italian, Russian and other European and Asian Americans would fight for because they were already put to the test. That’s what makes the USA great.

 

[Bullfighter]

This is paranoia.
Mass migrations have taken place throughout history, it’s nothing new. It’s not an invasion, it’s a migration, with ebbs and flows. Americans are not reproducing themselves, so immigrants who do will continue to increase in numbers – they value their children more highly.
Maybe in 50 years the southern US will be more hispanic. Big deal. We need to work so that they will assimilate American values such as independence, assertiveness, fairness and compassion. Of course those are not exclusively American values. The important thing is that America continues to strive - imperfectly - to be a place where people can practice their faith in peace, and live relatively free from government interference. We stray farther and farther from that goal, unfortunately.

This is not paranoia. This is really happening to the United States. What you are saying is just a lot of liberal nonsense that has been drilled into every American since day one. Our enemies know that, and they use it in their propaganda.

I have gone on my town’s website to hear our town president lie about how our crime rate is down by 60% and there has only been one murder here all year. That is an absolute LIE!

The town I mention is 80% Mexican hispanic and the Town President was in front of cameras for a local all Spanish news broadcast. It shows you what happens when a town is occupied by a foreign presence. The truth is the first victim!

 

[Bullfighter]

I don’t see how this is related to anything I said. I don’t think any war is “just” - I just think many are understandable. Actually, WWII seems pretty just to me, but I don’t think the reasons we went in were necessarily “just”, but they were understandable. Do I totally see why the North felt it important and just to preserve the country? Yes…it was logical and I think they had good intentions. Same for the South’s feelings. I understand why both sides felt the way they did…but I don’t think it was “just”. I think it’s very hard to judge most wars as “just”. About the only ones I can think of are self-defense and to stop extreme abuse by a government. But do I feel passionately that the North had every right to preserve the union? No. If the US were split in two, I don’t think that would have been immoral. Countries are just claimed areas with different governments. My loyalty isn’t to my country in terms of its geography and past, its to certain ideas that the US currently espouses along with other people. I feel strongly about freedom and opportunity - and I am loyal to those ideas over the US as an entity.

Would you be upset to learn that schools in low income areas are no longer offering any choice of foreign language except Spanish?

Would you be upset when most of the charitable funds in your city are going to help illegal aliens and not to help poor Americans?

Would you be upset when your city, county and state tell you they’re running out of funds for vital services and you know they have been giving food, education, and health services to illegal aliens for years?

Would you be upset when the Catholic Church that your family has faithfully donated to generation after generation for over 70+ years is giving preferential aid to those illegal aliens yet you yourself are considered low income?