How to test the truth of a religion

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A unique feature of the Qur’an is that of numerical symmetry. This can be taken as an interesting feature of coherence due to the fact that the Qur’anic text was revealed over a 23 year period. Furthermore this feature sheds more light to the question of authorship.

Below is the repetition of some Qur’anic words that appear in the Qur’an in exactly the same number:
Code:
  The words “this world” and “the Hereafter” occur 115 times each.

  The words “the Angels” and “the Devils” occur 88 times each.

  The words “death” (its derivations) and “life” occur 143 times each.

  The words “summer/heat” and “winter/cold” occur 5 times each.

  The words “evil deeds” (its derivations) and “good deeds” (its derivations) occur 167 times each.

  The words “people” and “prophets” occur 241 times each.

  The words “disbelief” and “faith” occur 17 times each.

  The word “month” occurs 12 times each, i.e. the same number as the months of the year.
Is it humanly possible for an illiterate man to produce such a numerically symmetrical text when the revelation was revealed over a period of 23 years concerning issues and realities that were specific to that period?

We should always remember that miracles can only come from the Creator.
I said I would no longer respond to you on this thread, but your false information should not go unchallanged or un-corrected, just incase someone thinks you are accurate.

The word(s) “this world” appears 121 time(s) in 116 verse(s) in Quran in M. Khan translation.

The word(s) “hereafter” appears 149 time(s) in 146 verse(s) in Quran in M. Khan translation.

The word(s) “angels” appears 135 time(s) in 128 verse(s) in Quran in M. Khan translation.

The word(s) “devils” appears 10 time(s) in 7 verse(s) in Quran in M. Khan translation.

The word(s) “faith” appears 98 time(s) in 89 verse(s) in Quran in M. Khan translation.

The word(s) “month” appears 20 time(s) in 10 verse(s) in Quran in M. Khan translation.

The word(s) “month” appears 11 time(s) in 7 verse(s) in Quran in Pickthal translation.

The word(s) “month” appears 11 time(s) in 7 verse(s) in Quran in Shakir translation.

The word(s) “month” appears 10 time(s) in 6 verse(s) in Quran in Yusuf Ali translation.
 
I looked at the website.

I just don’t know about this everybody. I don’t think there’s anything miraculous about math, or even poetry for that matter. To me that’s what it all comes down to. To say something amazing has been accomplished only by divine intervention is a bit of a stretch, I guess you can say that about anything we don’t initially understand, but someone has somehow figured out through enlightenment or genius. Hasn’t there been some autistic savant people recently who have produced some amazing and unexplainable symmetry and mathmatical patterns?

Yes, it is impressive and mysterious, but apparently it is flawed, like everything else in this world. The fact that it only makes sense in Arabic makes me wonder. Now, if it displayed all the same poetic symmetry and structure in every language on Earth, then I would be impressed. Can anybody show this?

Or Am I just being stupid and looking at this all wrong?
 
hamba2han;2105491 said:
In my opinion, I would have to say yes. Interpret that anyway you like.

23 years is plenty of time to figure some things out, seems like the Creator gave him enough time to learn. You can make music without knowing how to read it, or pick up an instrument without being trained, Some people just do it without knowing why.

Sort of the same thing??
 
A unique feature of the Qur’an is that of numerical symmetry. This can be taken as an interesting feature of coherence due to the fact that the Qur’anic text was revealed over a 23 year period. Furthermore this feature sheds more light to the question of authorship.
That’s called co-incidence
 
Quite apart from the issues of who really created the Koran, any attempts to say that Mohammed couldn’t have created the Koran being illiterate run into problems. We know that things creep into the Koran that were believed by people of that time which are incorrect. If the Koran was created by a supernatural entity, why assume it was God? Why not Satan, who fits the bill for Allah in so many ways?
Muslims don’t generally seem to understand Occam’s Razor. There is no reason to assume divine authorship for the Koran, since it contains no insights that must be divine. The symmetry claimed by hamba2han even if true would not be a miracle, that is clear - unless one is using a peculiarly Islamic definition of the word.
The way hamba2han keeps on telling people to go to the links, I’m sure he must be the proprietor of said site, trying to boost his visitor numbers - he did the same thing on www.faithfreedom.org
 
The word(s) “this world” appears 121 time(s) in 116 verse(s) in Quran in M. Khan translation.

The word(s) “hereafter” appears 149 time(s) in 146 verse(s) in Quran in M. Khan translation.

The word(s) “angels” appears 135 time(s) in 128 verse(s) in Quran in M. Khan translation.

The word(s) “devils” appears 10 time(s) in 7 verse(s) in Quran in M. Khan translation.

The word(s) “faith” appears 98 time(s) in 89 verse(s) in Quran in M. Khan translation.

The word(s) “month” appears 20 time(s) in 10 verse(s) in Quran in M. Khan translation.

The word(s) “month” appears 11 time(s) in 7 verse(s) in Quran in Pickthal translation.

The word(s) “month” appears 11 time(s) in 7 verse(s) in Quran in Shakir translation.

The word(s) “month” appears 10 time(s) in 6 verse(s) in Quran in Yusuf Ali translation.
This is yet another illustration of why it is totally inadequate to be relying on the translations of the Qur’an instead of examining the actual Arabic words used in the Qur’an.

As an example, “world” is “dunya” and “hereafter” is “akhira” in the language of the Qur’an and the number of times the words appear is 115 each.

Incidentally, in the Qur’an the words “man” and “woman” are employed equally i.e. 23 times and apart from indicating the equal importance of the genders in the eyes of their Creator, it is perhaps also worth remembering that the total number of human chromosomes is 46 i.e. 23 each from the mother and father.

It might also be worth noting that the word “land” appears 13 times in the Qur’an and the word “sea” 32 times, giving a total of 45 references and if we divide that number by that of the number of references to the land we arrive at the figure 28.888888888889%.

The number of total references to land and sea, 45, divided by the number of references to the sea in the Qur’an, 32, is 71.111111111111%.

Extraordinarily, these figures represent the exact proportions of land and sea on the Earth today.

As I mentioned before, we need to always remember that miracles come only from the Creator.
 
This is yet another illustration of why it is totally inadequate to be relying on the translations of the Qur’an instead of examining the actual Arabic words used in the Qur’an.
Why is it when muslim’s say things like
"Women are like uncovered pieces of meat’ and
"Muslims are more Australians than the convicts’ etc etc
They start with the ‘misinterpreted’ thing???:rolleyes:

Next thing im gonna find out is bonjour actually means good night
🤷
 
As I mentioned before, we need to always remember that miracles come only from the Creator.
And we also need to ignore people who point out that the Qu’ran is not a miracle, right? :rolleyes:

Mohammed had 23 years to write the Qu’ran - that’s plenty of time to make his text look nice and play around with word counts (if what you’re saying about it is even accurate - and if it is, apparently Muslims are the worst translators in the world, since translated copies don’t agree with your figures). Now if Mohammed had written the Qu’ran in a few days, then I might have been impressed.
 
For those who are charging that Muslims are purposefully being difficult and evasive when saying that the Qur’an just cannot be translated into another language without losing much of it’s true meaning, here then is a short illustration of the inimitable eloquence of the Qur’an that makes it really quite impossible to accurately translate into another language:

An Example of Eloquence in the Qur’an: The Preposition ‘of’ in Verse 42:43

Source: “The Miracles of the Qur’an” Shaykh M Mitwalli Al-Sharawi.

The language of the Qur’an is unsurpassed in its accuracy of meaning and expression. Each letter and word has its place while the language is free from fault. These unique features are found manifested in the use of one single letter or a preposition, as is demonstrated in the following verses:

**Ya bunayya aqimi alssalata wa/mur bialmaAAroofi wainha AAani almunkari waisbir AAala ma asabaka inna thalika min AAazmi al-omoori

“…and bear patiently that which befalls you; surely these acts require courage; ”**… (Qur’an 31:17)

**Walaman sabara waghafara inna thalika lamin AAazmi al-omoori

“And verily whoso is patient and forgiveth - lo! that, verily is (of) the steadfast heart of things.”**, (Qur’an 42:43)

In the second verse the preposition “of” (LAMIN) may pass unnoticed or be taken as an emphatic synonym. But this is not so, because every letter or word in the language of the Qur’an is selected with the utmost care to convey one intrinsic meaning and definite purpose.

There is no such thing as synonymity in the Qur’an. Each letter and word has its own fixed meaning which no other word can express as accurately, irrespective of their seeming similarity. If we consider thoughtfully the meticulous selectivity of the words in the above verses and their underlying meaning, we soon come to realize that there are two kinds of patience. In the first kind there is no direct adversary or person responsible for hardship or misfortune; for example a brick falling from a building under construction onto the head of an unsuspecting pedestrian, or the collapse of a newly-built house over peacefully sleeping tenants. In all incidents and mishaps of this nature no individual bears the responsibility for the victim’s misfortune. It is therefore easy for the unfortunate man to restrain his anger and accept his misfortune as an act of Allah. This kind of patience does not require a great deal of energy and can be easily achieved. But patience which is “ verily of the steadfast heart of things “ is that which involves an antagonist against whom a victim has the freedom to retaliate and avenge himself, but prefers to suppress his anger and vengeful tendencies and forgive him. This kind of patience is deemed by Allah to be worthier than the first, because in this kind the aggrieved is dominated by his instinctive anger and feelings of injustice, and has to exercise a great deal of self-restraint. He is restrained by his fear of Allah, and refrains from responding to evil with evil. In the above verses, Allah defines the merits of the two types of patience and their corresponding heavenly rewards. He also describes the human responses of retaliation that ought to be observed in each case by the faithful. Thus, in the first case they are commanded to accept what befalls them with humility and resignation to His will. In the second they are commanded to be forgiving and to maintain their faith in Allah’s justice.

The preposition ‘of’ has obviously been used to accentuate the distinction between the kind of patience in which forgiveness is not a necessity, and that in which forgiveness represents a test of endurance of injustice and of the believer’s trust in Allah’s providence and will. This shows how a single letter or preposition can bear such dept of meaning and discriminating power in the language of the Qur’an.

The above example clearly demonstrates just how very difficult it is to accurately translate even one short verse of the Qur’an with regard to the use of just a single preposition ’of’ within it, such is the supreme eloquence of the language used in the Qur’an.

As we can all imagine, it is therefore simply not possible to translate the over 6,000 verses of the entire Qur’an into another language without losing much of the accuracy of their true meaning.
 
This is yet another illustration of why it is totally inadequate to be relying on the translations of the Qur’an instead of examining the actual Arabic words used in the Qur’an.
Inadequate? Your god really wants to make it difficult for his word to be accepted by as many as possible doesn’t it? If there is no possibility for an accurate translation, why is it done?
And whomsoever Allah wills to guide, He opens his breast to Islam, and whomsoever He wills to send astray, He makes his breast closed and constricted, as if he is climbing up to the sky. Thus Allah puts the wrath on those who believe not.
( سورة الأنعام , Al-Anaam, Chapter #6, Verse #125)
Accordingly your god has made us go astray and here you are trying to guide us aright? Why? Or are the tanslations and people like yourself purposely leading others astray?
Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties about the hypocrites? Allah has cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they have earned. Do you want to guide him whom Allah has made to go astray? And he whom Allah has made to go astray, you will never find for him any way (of guidance).
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #88)
Who is the hypocrite here- me or you? Do you believe in your god or not?
Then who does more wrong than one who invents a lie against Allah, to lead mankind astray without knowledge. Certainly Allah guides not the people who are Zalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers, etc.)."
( سورة الأنعام , Al-Anaam, Chapter #6, Verse #144)
Of course, there is something missing in the translation, yes? What is it? Does allah harden people’s heart purposely to lead the into hell?
Whomsoever Allah guides, he is the guided one, and whomsoever He sends astray, those! They are the losers.
( سورة الأعراف , Al-Araf, Chapter #7, Verse #178)
Whomsoever Allah sends astray, none can guide him; and He lets them wander blindly in their transgressions.
( سورة الأعراف , Al-Araf, Chapter #7, Verse #186)
And those who disbelieve say: “Why is not a sign sent down to him (Muhammad SAW) from his Lord?” Say: “Verily, Allah sends astray whom He wills and guides unto Himself those who turn to Him in repentance.”
( سورة الرعد , Ar-Rad, Chapter #13, Verse #27)
Are you not condeming yourself? If the translation is not correct- correct it.
And it has already been revealed to you in the Book (this Quran) that when you hear the Verses of Allah being denied and mocked at, then sit not with them, until they engage in a talk other than that; (but if you stayed with them) certainly in that case you would be like them. Surely, Allah will collect the hypocrites and disbelievers all together in hell,
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #140)
And yet, you sit here.

Well regarded translators are not well regarded enough when it disagrees with your little test. A convienient excuse to deny what your own book says that can only be understood in a dead 7th century language. The more you justify it, the more proof it is from Ibees himself.
(Iblees (Satan)) said: “See? This one whom You have honoured above me, if You give me respite (keep me alive) to the Day of Resurrection, I will surely seize and mislead his offspring (by sending them astray) all but a few!”
( سورة الإسراء , Al-Isra, Chapter #17, Verse #62)
Today: 2.7 billion Christians, 1.3 billion Muslims, 1.1 billion non-religous out of just over 6 billion people. I do not care to hear your false justifications to those figures.

If you had any sense of morailty you would feel great shame. You, I do not feel sorry for, but for any that because of the likes of you, you truly lead astray. Get thee gone!:knight2:
 
I suspect that a good statistics guy could do similiar things with the Bible. It uses the word “the” 47,000 times and the word “and” 47,000 times ergo it is true! You just randomly go through until you find matching numbers. Eventually you will find some. It proves NOTHING, except that you have a lot of time on your hands. It can work in any language too.

So hamba’s amazing fact isn’t so amazing is it? Now, he has still not taken up my challenge. I repeat it. Produce one verse, in ANY language, that surpasses the gospels. If he can then I will become muslim, if he can’t then he must become Catholic. What could be more fair then that? He can choose his own language and just write one measly verse.

Of course I, objective as I am, get to decide who wins. See? What could be more fair? It’s his own test and his own conditions. I am being even more liberal on the conditions then he is. So hamba, it’s up to you.
 
An Example of Eloquence in the Qur’an: The Preposition ‘of’ in Verse 42:43

There is no such thing as synonymity in the Qur’an. Each letter and word has its own fixed meaning which no other word can express as accurately, irrespective of their seeming similarity. If we consider thoughtfully the meticulous selectivity of the words in the above verses and their underlying meaning, we soon come to realize that there are two kinds of patience. In the first kind there is no direct adversary or person responsible for hardship or misfortune; for example a brick falling from a building under construction onto the head of an unsuspecting pedestrian, or the collapse of a newly-built house over peacefully sleeping tenants. In all incidents and mishaps of this nature no individual bears the responsibility for the victim’s misfortune. It is therefore easy for the unfortunate man to restrain his anger and accept his misfortune as an act of Allah. This kind of patience does not require a great deal of energy and can be easily achieved. But patience which is “ verily of the steadfast heart of things “ is that which involves an antagonist against whom a victim has the freedom to retaliate and avenge himself, but prefers to suppress his anger and vengeful tendencies and forgive him. This kind of patience is deemed by Allah to be worthier than the first, because in this kind the aggrieved is dominated by his instinctive anger and feelings of injustice, and has to exercise a great deal of self-restraint. He is restrained by his fear of Allah, and refrains from responding to evil with evil. In the above verses, Allah defines the merits of the two types of patience and their corresponding heavenly rewards. He also describes the human responses of retaliation that ought to be observed in each case by the faithful. Thus, in the first case they are commanded to accept what befalls them with humility and resignation to His will. In the second they are commanded to be forgiving and to maintain their faith in Allah’s justice.

The preposition ‘of’ has obviously been used to accentuate the distinction between the kind of patience in which forgiveness is not a necessity, and that in which forgiveness represents a test of endurance of injustice and of the believer’s trust in Allah’s providence and will. This shows how a single letter or preposition can bear such dept of meaning and discriminating power in the language of the Qur’an.
The above example clearly demonstrates just how very difficult it is to accurately translate even one short verse of the Qur’an with regard to the use of just a single preposition ’of’ within it, such is the supreme eloquence of the language used in the Qur’an.

As we can all imagine, it is therefore simply not possible to translate the over 6,000 verses of the entire Qur’an into another language without losing much of the accuracy of their true meaning.

First of all, no language has exact synonyms in it - all words are nuanced and convey a slightly different meaning (whether it be a different emphasis, connotation, whatever). Languages are by nature economical. And what you said about not being able to translate something conveying its exact meaning can be said of any text being translated into any language - languages are different from each other.

I can just as easily use an example from Latin just like the one you said about the Arabic used in the Qu’ran, concerning nuances:

Classical Latin has three different words meaning “from”:

de, which means “down from”
ex, which means “out from”
ab, which means “away from”

These are the nuanced meanings of three Latin words meaning “from”.

Therefore the Bible, having been written at one point in Latin, is the Word of God, because it used such a beautiful and nuanced language! Surely only God Himself could have written something that uses these three words!

Of course I believe that the Bible is the Word Of God, but not for a silly reason as the quality of the language used in it!
 
As I mentioned before, we need to always remember that miracles come only from the Creator.
You don’t seem to listen very well hamba2han.
You haven’t produced any miracles. One of the things about a miracle is that it defies a natural explanation. What have you mentioed that defies natural explanation? Nothing whatsoever!
Your word games may well impress other Muslims - they don’t fool us.
Try posting on FFI - oops I forgot you have and they stop you making frequent links to your poorly visited website…:rotfl:
 
This is yet another illustration of why it is totally inadequate to be relying on the translations of the Qur’an instead of examining the actual Arabic words used in the Qur’an.
No, what it means is that if you manipulate the translation you can get the ‘startling’ results you get.

And it still doesn’t prove it’s better poetry. Rhyme pleases some, but that’s a subjective measure.
 
False prophet, false scripture, false religion. Dangerous enemy who follows this false religion mindlessly. That’s the reality. We had better keep the guard up.:mad:
 
False prophet, false scripture, false religion. Dangerous enemy who follows this false religion mindlessly. That’s the reality. We had better keep the guard up.
It certainly shows why some people do strange acts. They just believe, and apply no rationale thought.
 
You don’t seem to listen very well hamba2han.
You haven’t produced any miracles. One of the things about a miracle is that it defies a natural explanation. What have you mentioned that defies natural explanation? Nothing whatsoever!
Your word games may well impress other Muslims - they don’t fool us.
Try posting on FFI - oops I forgot you have and they stop you making frequent links to your poorly visited website…:rotfl:
I think by miracles he is talking about, the quran saying the earth was not flat,
55a.net/firas/english/?page=show_det&id=46&select_page=69
At the time it was thought it was flat

The layers of the earth
Allah is He Who created seven heavens and the earth the like of them – Al Talaaq: 12]

human creation
We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)… 1 (Quran, 23:12-14
theunjustmedia.com/Islam/Science/The%20quran%20on%20human%20embryonoic%20development.htm

black holes
55a.net/firas/english/?page=show_det&id=206&select_page=3

The quran does have things that was not truly known by most people, the quran is unique in that way.
 
I think by miracles he is talking about, the quran saying the earth was not flat,
55a.net/firas/english/?page=show_det&id=46&select_page=69
At the time it was thought it was flat

The layers of the earth
Allah is He Who created seven heavens and the earth the like of them – Al Talaaq: 12]

human creation
We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)… 1 (Quran, 23:12-14
theunjustmedia.com/Islam/Science/The%20quran%20on%20human%20embryonoic%20development.htm

black holes
55a.net/firas/english/?page=show_det&id=206&select_page=3

The quran does have things that was not truly known by most people, the quran is unique in that way.
The embryology in the Koran is most definitely wrong, I can tell you as a qualified physician. The thing is, if you point to the science in the Koran as evidence of divine authorship, then you must accept that if any of the science is wrong, then the Koran cannot be divinely authored. That is logical isn’t it?
And the embryology is definitely wrong.
I find this logic very flimsy anyhow. Many peoples of that time realised that the earth was not flat, esp sailors for example.
I do not believe that the Koran has mention of black holes when it does not mention something as mundane as snow!!!
 
I think most thought the earth was flat in that time or they didn’t care or think about it (this was in 545AD or something like that), then C. Columbus (1400’s)was first to prove it was round while many of his time thought it was flat. At least that is what i remember from history class??? Does anyone know…

About the "clot " thing…it is very interesting information for that time period.

I am not sure if any of this is “proof” but it is very interesting from a historical stand point, to me anyways… a history buff.
 
I think most thought the earth was flat in that time or they didn’t care or think about it (this was in 545AD or something like that), then C. Columbus (1400’s)was first to prove it was round while many of his time thought it was flat. At least that is what i remember from history class??? Does anyone know…

About the "clot " thing…it is very interesting information for that time period.

I am not sure if any of this is “proof” but it is very interesting from a historical stand point, to me anyways… a history buff.
I also found this

The Earth’s circumference was first determined around 240 BCE by Eratosthenes…
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth

so this may disprove muhammad…
 
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