How to test the truth of a religion

[hamba2han]

Is there any falsification test in your religion? Is there anything in your religion that would prove you are wrong if I could prove to you that it exists - anything?

Most people will not have anything - no test, no proof, nothing!.. because they do not carry around the idea that they should not only present what they believe but should also offer others a chance to prove they’re wrong.

Islam however does provide humankind with a chance to verify it’s authenticity and “prove it wrong” and it states in the Qur’an:

“Do they not consider the Qur’an? Had it been from any other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.”… (Surah An-Nisa, 4:82)

This is a clear challenge to the non-Muslim for it basically invites him to find a mistake in the Qur’an.

As a matter of fact, the seriousness and difficulty of the challenge aside, the actual presentation of such a challenge in the first place is not even in human nature and is inconsistent with man’s personality.

One doesn’t take an exam in school and after finishing the exam, write a note to the instructor at the end saying, “This exam is perfect. There are no mistakes in it. Find one if you can!”

One just doesn’t do that because the teacher would not sleep until he found a mistake!

And yet this is the way the Qur’an approaches people i.e. to invite them to examine and try their best to find any mistakes or discrepancies within it and hence determine for themselves the Truth of Islam.

 

[Valke2]

Is there any falsification test in your religion? Is there anything in your religion that would prove you are wrong if I could prove to you that it exists - anything?

Most people will not have anything - no test, no proof, nothing!.. because they do not carry around the idea that they should not only present what they believe but should also offer others a chance to prove they’re wrong.

Islam however does provide humankind with a chance to verify it’s authenticity and “prove it wrong” and it states in the Qur’an:

“Do they not consider the Qur’an? Had it been from any other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.”… (Surah An-Nisa, 4:82)

This is a clear challenge to the non-Muslim for it basically invites him to find a mistake in the Qur’an.

As a matter of fact, the seriousness and difficulty of the challenge aside, the actual presentation of such a challenge in the first place is not even in human nature and is inconsistent with man’s personality.

One doesn’t take an exam in school and after finishing the exam, write a note to the instructor at the end saying, “This exam is perfect. There are no mistakes in it. Find one if you can!”

One just doesn’t do that because the teacher would not sleep until he found a mistake!

And yet this is the way the Qur’an approaches people i.e. to invite them to examine and try their best to find any mistakes or discrepancies within it and hence determine for themselves the Truth of Islam.

But this is a challenge that millions believe they have met time and time again. that you or another muslim offers an explanation as to why we are not correct, does’t prove anything.

 

[hamba2han]

But this is a challenge that millions believe they have met time and time again. that you or another Muslim offers an explanation as to why we are not correct, doesn’t prove anything.

Millions believe they have met this challenge “time and time again”, you say??

Then it surely shouldn’t be a problem at all for them to come up with just one discrepancy in the Qur’an, should it?

Well, if indeed this is the case, where is this discrepancy?

 

[Valke2]

Millions believe they have met this challenge “time and time again”, you say??

Then it surely shouldn’t be a problem at all for them to come up with just one discrepancy in the Qur’an, should it?

Well, if indeed this is the case, where is this discrepancy?

I’m not going to waste my time on this. dozens of discrepancies have been discussed on these threads alone. I’m sure you would disagree. But this only confirms that your original premises, that there is a way to prove the Quran, is nonsense. I could give dozens of explanations for any discrepancies you could find in Torah, showing they are not discrepancies but that you simply do not understand them. So who would be right?

 

[Katholikos]

Define “discrepancy.” And, of course, there aren’t any in the Koran, according to you.

True Christianity isn’t based on a book, but on the Catholic Church founded by Christ for the salvation of the world. The Church produced the Book (Bible) and is its only rightful interpreter.

No takers here. Thanks, anyway.

 

[Contarini]

Millions believe they have met this challenge “time and time again”, you say??

Then it surely shouldn’t be a problem at all for them to come up with just one discrepancy in the Qur’an, should it?

Well, if indeed this is the case, where is this discrepancy?

Well, just for starters, there’s the reference to Mary mother of Jesus as the “sister of Aaron” in Surah 19, v. 28. I know that you guys have explanations for this, and I’m not trying to convince you that it is a discrepancy. But to people not already convinced that Islam is true it looks like a pretty obvious and glaring inaccuracy, which demonstrates that Muhammad had a very hazy knowledge of the Biblical stories he was retelling. Muslim explanations sound extremely far-fetched and unconvincing.

Edwin

 

[Valke2]

Even though I said I wouldn’t do this…

a. fornication and adultery are considered sin, but a man can have sex with many slave women with no legal marriage status.

The direction one faces while praying. Which was originally toward Jerusalem and then changed to Mecca. How can God, within a few months change his mind on this issue? And why require muslims to face any direction at all? Doesn’t Surah 2:115 say that Allah is everywhere? I’m sure you know that there’s a Surah that deals with those who faced Jerusalem before ALlah changed his mind and told them to face Mecca.

Then there’s the not-so-white elephant in the room. The message of peace and tolerance in an earlier revelation and the later message to fight all unbelievers.

These are all the more troubling given the allegation that the text of the Quran remains “uncorrupted”.

Why is it that sex with captives is not fornication or adultry?

 

[hamba2han]

Well, just for starters, there’s the reference to Mary mother of Jesus as the “sister of Aaron” in Surah 19, v. 28. I know that you guys have explanations for this, and I’m not trying to convince you that it is a discrepancy. But to people not already convinced that Islam is true it looks like a pretty obvious and glaring inaccuracy, which demonstrates that Muhammad had a very hazy knowledge of the Biblical stories he was retelling. Muslim explanations sound extremely far-fetched and unconvincing.

After this verse was revealed, there were in fact people at the time who asked the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) about this “discrepancy” concerning Maryam (ra), the mother of Jesus (pbuh).

If indeed it was a mistake, then Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) surely would have corrected it there and then but obviously it was not a mistake and it was he himself who explained to those asking what this verse meant.

Even though I said I wouldn’t do this…

a. fornication and adultery are considered sin, but a man can have sex with many slave women with no legal marriage status.

The direction one faces while praying. Which was originally toward Jerusalem and then changed to Mecca. How can God, within a few months change his mind on this issue? And why require muslims to face any direction at all? Doesn’t Surah 2:115 say that Allah is everywhere? I’m sure you know that there’s a Surah that deals with those who faced Jerusalem before ALlah changed his mind and told them to face Mecca.

Then there’s the not-so-white elephant in the room. The message of peace and tolerance in an earlier revelation and the later message to fight all unbelievers.

These are all the more troubling given the allegation that the text of the Quran remains “uncorrupted”.

Why is it that sex with captives is not fornication or adultry?

Firstly, Allah (swt) never changes His mind for that is a sign of weakness and the Creator is not weak.

Second, you are asking questions which are ahead of this topic since the purpose of this thread is only to question whether or not the Qur’an is really the Word of the Creator.

All of us who are the creations need to take things one step at a time and this means that we really do need to first answer this extremely important question regarding the Qur’an before we can even hope to ponder much more advanced issues like the question of why our Creator does the things that He does.

 

[Valke2]

After this verse was revealed, there were in fact people at the time who asked the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) about this “discrepancy” concerning Maryam (ra), the mother of Jesus (pbuh).

If indeed it was a mistake, then Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) surely would have corrected it there and then but obviously it was not a mistake and it was he himself who explained to those asking what this verse meant.

Firstly, Allah (swt) never changes His mind for that is a sign of weakness and the Creator is not weak.

Second, you are asking questions which are ahead of this topic since the purpose of this thread is only to question whether or not the Qur’an is really the Word of the Creator.

All of us who are the creations need to take things one step at a time and this means that we really do need to first answer this extremely important question regarding the Qur’an before we can even hope to ponder much more advanced issues like the question of why our Creator does the things that He does.

That’s a long non-answer. I think maybe we should change topics.

 

[Contarini]

After this verse was revealed, there were in fact people at the time who asked the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) about this “discrepancy” concerning Maryam (ra), the mother of Jesus (pbuh).

Which shows that it’s a rather obvious problem!

If indeed it was a mistake, then Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) surely would have corrected it there and then

Why? Since Muhammad taught that the Qur’an was directly revealed from Allah, he couldn’t admit that it was a mistake without calling his prophetic claims into question. The natural thing to do was to try to explain it away. I don’t blame him for this–I’m sure that he was sincere in believing that the Qur’an was the literal word of God. Any system of belief has some problematic aspects that have to be explained away. But when you claim that a freedom from discrepancies is a point in favor of the Qur’an, it becomes my painful duty to point out that exactly the opposite is the case. If (which I cannot imagine ever happening) I were inclined on other grounds to become a Muslim, the apparent inaccuracy and inconsistency of the Qur’an would be a serious obstacle I would have to overcome.

but obviously it was not a mistake

It seems obvious to me that it was!

and it was he himself who explained to those asking what this verse meant.

What was his explanation and why should I as a non-Muslim believe it, rather than the far more plausible explanation that he simply didn’t know the Biblical stories very well?

The Muslim explanation I have read is that “sister of Aaron” is a metaphorical honorific praising Mary’s piety. I find this extremely far-fetched and unconvincing–a desperate attempt to cover an embarrassing mistake on Muhammad’s part.

I’m sorry if this offends you, but you asked for it!

Edwin

 

[Morning_Star15]

After this verse was revealed, there were in fact people at the time who asked the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) about this “discrepancy” concerning Maryam (ra), the mother of Jesus (pbuh).

If indeed it was a mistake, then Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) surely would have corrected it there and then but obviously it was not a mistake and it was he himself who explained to those asking what this verse meant.

Firstly, Allah (swt) never changes His mind for that is a sign of weakness and the Creator is not weak.

Second, you are asking questions which are ahead of this topic since the purpose of this thread is only to question whether or not the Qur’an is really the Word of the Creator.

You said that the way to prove that the Qu’ran is really the Word of the Creator is by proving it has no discrepancies.

All of us who are the creations need to take things one step at a time and this means that we really do need to first answer this extremely important question regarding the Qur’an before we can even hope to ponder much more advanced issues like the question of why our Creator does the things that He does.

First you ask someone to point out a discrepancy in the Qu’ran, and when someone points out several, you say that this isn’t what you were asking?

 

[itsjustdave1988]

…If indeed it was a mistake, then Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) surely would have corrected it there and then but obviously it was not a mistake and it was he himself who explained to those asking what this verse meant.

Circular response: If it was a discrepancy, then it would not have remained in the Quran. Therefore it is not a discrepancy. Thus, there are no discrepancies in the Quran.

Oh brother. I’m sure the Mormons could say the same about their “Scriptures”… “The Book of Mormon is without discrepancy, therefore it is from God…For that which is in the Book of Mormon which appears to be a discrepancy, the “Prophet” Joseph Smith surely would have corrected it. Thus, since he didn’t it is obvious the Book of Mormon is not mistaken.”

If that is how to “test the truth of a religion” then I suggest you need a better test.

For me, there are many tests, chief among them is whether or not the religion brings about metanoia.

 

[hamba2han]

First you ask someone to point out a discrepancy in the Qu’ran, and when someone points out several, you say that this isn’t what you were asking?

I believe we first need to lay some ground rules.

There is obviously two separate accounts we need to consider here i.e. the Biblical account and the Qur’anic account.

By ‘discrepancy’, I mean there should be no contradictions or mistakes with regard to what is written in either scripture alone and not compared to the other.

In order to be completely fair and objective in our examination, the ground rule to remember here is that just because the Qur’an says something which does not agree with the Bible, then this does not make it a discrepancy… or vice versa.

In other words, a discrepancy in the Qur’an only occurs if a verse contradicts with another verse in the Qur’an or with established scientific FACT, not with what is written in the Bible.

And of course, exactly the same consideration would apply to any discrepancies which might be found in the Bible.i.e. it has to be in conflict with other Biblical verses or established scientific fact for it to be considered a discrepancy.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

…In order to be completely fair and objective in our examination, the ground rule to remember here is that just because the Qur’an says something which does not agree with the Bible, then this does not make it a discrepancy… or vice versa.

In other words, a discrepancy in the Qur’an only occurs if a verse contradicts with another verse in the Qur’an or with established scientific FACT, not with what is written in the Bible.

Still, this is not a conclusive test. For instance, the Mormons believe God the Father is an exhaulted man of flesh and bones who lives on a planet near the star Kolob, according to their own Scripture and prophets. This is not self-contradictory within their own belief system, but that does not prove that it is necessarily true.

Thus, your “test” can be applied to any self-consistent belief system, but does not guarantee that such a self-consistent system actually corresponds with reality.

“Not everything that is clever is true.”
–St. Ephraim

 

[Morning_Star15]

I believe we first need to lay some ground rules.

There is obviously two separate accounts we need to consider here i.e. the Biblical account and the Qur’anic account.

By ‘discrepancy’, I mean there should be no contradictions or mistakes with regard to what is written in either scripture alone and not compared to the other.

In order to be completely fair and objective in our examination, the ground rule to remember here is that just because the Qur’an says something which does not agree with the Bible, then this does not make it a discrepancy… or vice versa.

In other words, a discrepancy in the Qur’an only occurs if a verse contradicts with another verse in the Qur’an or with established scientific FACT, not with what is written in the Bible.

And of course, exactly the same consideration would apply to any discrepancies which might be found in the Bible.i.e. it has to be in conflict with other Biblical verses or established scientific fact for it to be considered a discrepancy.

I understand your point. However, one of the discrepancies Contarini pointed out was within the Qu’ran itself - the issue whether Muslims are to face Jerualem when they pray, or Mecca, or nowhere in particular since the Qu’ran also says that God is everywhere. So you can’t really justify dodging this question as you have done, on the grounds that it isn’t a contradiction in the Qu’ran, but a contradiction with the Bible, since this isn’t the case.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Let me give you a hypothetical example…I call my religion Davidianism. In Davidianism, the prophet recieved the Sacred Scriptures directly from God. That hypothetical “Scripture” is very simple, it says only these words:

“There is no God but God, and ITSJUSTDAVE1988 is his prophet”.

I say to you all, “examine and try your best to find any mistakes or discrepancies within these Scriptures. Determine for yourselves the Truth of Davidianism.”

Since my Scriptures do not contain any discrepancies, no contradictions whatsoever, then Davidianism must be truly from God, right? Should my hypothetical religion be convincing to anyone?

 

[Contarini]

I believe we first need to lay some ground rules.

There is obviously two separate accounts we need to consider here i.e. the Biblical account and the Qur’anic account.

By ‘discrepancy’, I mean there should be no contradictions or mistakes with regard to what is written in either scripture alone and not compared to the other.

In order to be completely fair and objective in our examination, the ground rule to remember here is that just because the Qur’an says something which does not agree with the Bible, then this does not make it a discrepancy… or vice versa.

Are you saying that Mary the mother of Jesus and Mirian the sister of Aaron really were the same person? If you aren’t, then your criterion is artificial. This is not about assuming the Bible is correct and judging the Qur’an by it. Even though I see no reason to think that there’s any basis to Muhammad’s rewriting of the story of Abraham and Isaac to make Ishmael the son who was nearly sacrificed, I’m not going to press that point, because that really is a matter of two different tellings of the story. This is a confusion between two completely different stories–there is no possible way that the mother of Jesus could have been a sister of Aaron. It’s an obvious mistake based on ignorance and a similarity of names. Restricting the discussion to internal consistency shows a strange lack of confidence in the accuracy of your inspired text, and it’s a pretty low standard to set. If the Qur’an was written by Muhammad (though of course some skeptics say that it was put together later), one would expect it to be internally consistent. It actually isn’t entirely consistent even with itself–no doubt because it was written over a period of time. But for my money the confusion between the two “Maryams” is discrepancy enough. The simplest explanation is that Muhammad was extremely ignorant of the stories he was repeating–which indicates that the Qur’an is the product of a fallible man and not the literal Word of God. (I don’t think that Christians who make claims of this sort for the Bible are correct either, BTW–I believe that the Bible is divinely inspired, but I am happy to agree that it is the product of human authors and reflects their limitations in various ways. This even though there is no confusion in the Bible quite as bad as that between the two Maryams–it appears that the Biblical writers put Darius before Cyrus, but that’s minor by comparison.)

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

I understand your point. However, one of the discrepancies Contarini pointed out was within the Qu’ran itself

That wasn’t me.

Edwin

 

[Morning_Star15]

That wasn’t me.

Edwin

Sorry, I meant Valke2.

 

[hamba2han]

I understand your point. However, one of the discrepancies Contarini pointed out was within the Qu’ran itself - the issue whether Muslims are to face Jerualem when they pray, or Mecca, or nowhere in particular since the Qu’ran also says that God is everywhere. So you can’t really justify dodging this question as you have done, on the grounds that it isn’t a contradiction in the Qu’ran, but a contradiction with the Bible, since this isn’t the case.

There is no discrepancy at all in the Qur’an regarding this as the Qur’an does not command believers to face towards Jerusalem when praying.

Let me give you a hypothetical example…I call my religion Davidianism. In Davidianism, the prophet recieved the Sacred Scriptures directly from God. That hypothetical “Scripture” is very simple, it says only these words:

“There is no God but God, and ITSJUSTDAVE1988 is his prophet”.

I say to you all, “examine and try your best to find any mistakes or discrepancies within these Scriptures. Determine for yourselves the Truth of Davidianism.”

Since my Scriptures do not contain any discrepancies, no contradictions whatsoever, then Davidianism must be truly from God, right? Should my hypothetical religion be convincing to anyone?

There are also scientific facts by which to test the accuracy of what is written in scriptures and while I am totally not familiar with what is found in the scriptures of Mormons, I am nevertheless pretty sure that it will not pass the test of Science… although there might be a possibility that I could be wrong about this.

And for those who are questioning the ‘discrepancy’ of Mary being the sister of Aaron, this article is a fairly detailed explanation.