How to test the truth of a religion

[Morning_Star15]

OK then, what about the discrepancy that Valke2 pointed out about fornication not being permitted but sex with many female captives with no legal marital status being permitted? Isn’t that an internal discrepancy?

 

[Montalban]

Millions believe they have met this challenge “time and time again”, you say??

Then it surely shouldn’t be a problem at all for them to come up with just one discrepancy in the Qur’an, should it?

Well, if indeed this is the case, where is this discrepancy?

You believe that the Koran is the direct word of your god, but often Muhammed appears in first person, giving the game away that he wrote it

 

[Montalban]

One of the more interesting Islamic ‘tests’ is the one to come up with another book ‘like the Koran’. The idea is that the Koran is unique, and somehow exhibits divine handiwork. The problem with this is that it works on the assumption that you already believe that the Koran is god-given and therefore you’ll never find a book to compare it to.

Tá Críosd ar éirigh!
Christ is risen

 

[jack_hawkins]

Is there any falsification test in your religion? Is there anything in your religion that would prove you are wrong if I could prove to you that it exists - anything?

Most people will not have anything - no test, no proof, nothing!.. because they do not carry around the idea that they should not only present what they believe but should also offer others a chance to prove they’re wrong.

Islam however does provide humankind with a chance to verify it’s authenticity and “prove it wrong” and it states in the Qur’an:

“Do they not consider the Qur’an? Had it been from any other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.”… (Surah An-Nisa, 4:82)

This is a clear challenge to the non-Muslim for it basically invites him to find a mistake in the Qur’an.

As a matter of fact, the seriousness and difficulty of the challenge aside, the actual presentation of such a challenge in the first place is not even in human nature and is inconsistent with man’s personality.

One doesn’t take an exam in school and after finishing the exam, write a note to the instructor at the end saying, “This exam is perfect. There are no mistakes in it. Find one if you can!”

One just doesn’t do that because the teacher would not sleep until he found a mistake!

And yet this is the way the Qur’an approaches people i.e. to invite them to examine and try their best to find any mistakes or discrepancies within it and hence determine for themselves the Truth of Islam.

I find this quite funny since in my experience Mueslis are the people who least understand the concept of falsifiability and Popper!!!
It is easy to find deep fundamental flaws and inconsistencies in the Koran, so I find it intriguing that you issue such a challenge. It is clear that you must have a blind spot therefore about Islam and the Koran. Rather than waste my time quoting the many examples just go to answering islam, hamba2han.
I can tell you that the “embryology” in the Koran is totally wrong, so that proves Mohammed wrote the Koran not “Allah”. Plus he repeated the error of the cults of the region eg saying that Myriam/Mary is part of the Trinity. Need I cite any more examples?
As I say, Muslims generally don’t understand falsifiability. It is incorrect to say that if the Koran doesn’t have any discrepancies, therefore it must be the word of Allah and “true”. For one, we know that it has been altered, and this is verifiable unlike the vague accusations of Muslims that the Bible has been altered. Variant copies of the Koran (which was dictated years after the supposed revelation and complied after Mohammed’s death) were destroyed, so the invariance of the current Koran has been achieved artificially.

 

[Montalban]

I can tell you that the “embryology” in the Koran is totally wrong, so that proves Mohammed wrote the Koran not “Allah”. Plus he repeated the error of the cults of the region eg saying that Myriam/Mary is part of the Trinity. Need I cite any more examples?

That’s where they say we’re developed from a ‘drop’.

 

[jack_hawkins]

That’s where they say we’re developed from a ‘drop’.

Yes, and that the drop comes from between the ribs and the backbone - ridiculous! Mohammed got his knowledge from the Greeks not Allah - he thought there are 360 joints in the body for example, which is wrong (I think that is in the Ahadith not the Koran).

 

[jack_hawkins]

After this verse was revealed, there were in fact people at the time who asked the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) about this “discrepancy” concerning Maryam (ra), the mother of Jesus (pbuh).

If indeed it was a mistake, then Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) surely would have corrected it there and then but obviously it was not a mistake and it was he himself who explained to those asking what this verse meant.

Firstly, Allah (swt) never changes His mind for that is a sign of weakness and the Creator is not weak.

Second, you are asking questions which are ahead of this topic since the purpose of this thread is only to question whether or not the Qur’an is really the Word of the Creator.

All of us who are the creations need to take things one step at a time and this means that we really do need to first answer this extremely important question regarding the Qur’an before we can even hope to ponder much more advanced issues like the question of why our Creator does the things that He does.

This reply neatly shows how you don’t really understand the idea of falsifiability!!!
Any discrepancy can’t be a discrepancy because Allah doesn’t change his mind? Clearly that fails the test of falsifiability!
So you have patently failed your own test.

 

[Montalban]

Yes, and that the drop comes from between the ribs and the backbone - ridiculous! Mohammed got his knowledge from the Greeks not Allah - he thought there are 360 joints in the body for example, which is wrong (I think that is in the Ahadith not the Koran).

"The Qur’an and Embryology
All quotations are taken from Pickthal’s translation unless otherwise indicated.
3:59 Lo! The likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is.

4:56 Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever mighty, wise.

7:172 And (remember) when thy Lord brought forth from the children of Adam, from their loins, their seed, and made them testify themselves, saying: Am I not you Lord? They said: Yea, verily. we testify. This was lest ye should say at the Day of Resurrection: Lo! of this we were unaware.

11:61 You have no other God save Him. He brought you forth from the earth and hath made you husband of it.

13:8 Allah knoweth that which every female beareth and that which the wombs absorb and that which they grow. And everything with Him is measured.

15:26 Verily we created man out of potter’s clay of black mud altered.

15:28 And remember when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am creating a mortal out of potter’s clay of black mud altered.

15:33 (Iblis) said: Why should I prostrate myself unto a mortal whom Thou hast created out of potter’s clay of black mud altered?

16:4 He created man from a drop of fluid, yet, behold! he is an open opponent.

17:61 And when We said unto the angels: Fall down prostrate before Adam and they fell prostrate all save Iblis, He said: Shall I fall prostrate before that which Thou hast created of clay?

18:37 And his comrade (Abel?) while he disputed with him (Cain?) exclaimed: Disbelievest in Him Who created thee of dust, then of a drop (of seed), and then fashioned thee a man?

19:67 Doth not man remember that We created him before, when he was naught?

22:5 O mankind! If you are in any doubt concerning the Resurrection, then lo! We have created you from dust, then from a drop of seed, then from a clot, then from a little lump of flesh shapely and shapeless, that We may make it clear for you. And we cause what We will to remain in the wombs for an appointed time, and afterward we bring you forth as infants, then (give you growth) that ye attain your full strength. And among you is he who dieth (young), and among you is he who is brought back to the most abject time of life, so that after knowledge, he knoweth naught. And thou (Muhammad) seest the earth barren, but when We send down water thereon, it doth thrill and swell and put forth every lovely kind (of growth).

23:12 Verily we created man from a product of wet earth (loam).
23:13 Then placed him (as a drop of seed) in a safe lodging;
23:14 Then fashioned We the drop a clot, then fashioned We the clot a little lump, then fashioned We the little clot bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it as another creature. So blessed be Allah, the Best of Creators!

25:54 And it is He who hath created man from water, and hath appointed from him kindred by blood and kindred by marriage; for thy Lord is ever powerful.

30:19 He bringeth forth the living from the dead, and He bringeth forth the dead from the living, and He reviveth the earth after her death. And even so will ye be brought forth.
30:20 And of His signs is this: He created you of dust, and behold you human beings, varying widely!
30:21 And of His signs is this: He created for you helpmates from yourselves that ye might find rest in them.

con’t…

 

[Montalban]

32:7 Who made all things good which He created, and He began the creation of man from clay,
32:8 Then He made his seed from a draught of despised fluid;
32:9 Then He fashioned him and breathed into him of His spirit: and appointed for you hearing and sight and hearts. Small thanks give ye!

35:11 Allah created you from dust, then from a little fluid, then He made you pairs (male and female?). No female beareth or bringeth forth save with His knowledge. And no-one groweth old, nor is aught lessened of his life, but it is recorded in a Book. Lo! that is easy for Allah.

38:71 When thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to create a mortal out of mire
38:72 And when I have fashioned him and breathed into him of My Spirit, then fall down before him prostrate.

39:6 He created you from one being, then from that (being) He made its mate; and He hath provided for you of cattle eight kinds. He created you in the
wombs of your mothers, creation after creation, in a threefold gloom. Such is Allah your Lord. There is no God save Him. How then are ye turned away?

40:67 He it is who created you from dust, then from a drop (of seed), then from a clot, then bringeth you forth as a child, then ordaineth full strength and afterward that ye become old men though some among you die before-and that ye reach an appointed term, that haply ye may understand.

49:13 O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another…

52:35 Or were they created out of naught? Or are they the creators?
52:36 Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay, but they are sure of nothing!

53:45 And that he created the two spouses, the male and the female,
53:46 From a drop (of seed) when it is poured forth;
53:47 And that He hath ordained the second bringing forth.

56:58 Have ye seen that which ye emit?
56:59 Do you create it or are We the Creator?

64:3 He created the heavens and the earth with truth, and He shaped you and made good your shapes…

71:14 When He created you by (divers) stages?

75:3 Thinketh man that We shall not assemble his bones?
75:4 Yea, verily. Yea, We are able to restore his very fingers.

75:37 Was he not a drop of fluid which gushed forth?
75:38 Then he became a clot; then (Allah) shaped and fashioned:
75:39 And made of him a pair, the male and female.

76:2 Lo! We create man from a drop of thickened fluid to test him, so we make him hearing, knowing.

80:18 From what thing doth He create him?
80:19 From a drop of seed. He createth him and proportioneth him
80:20 Then makeh the way easy for him,
80:21 Then causeth him to die, and burieth him;
80:22 Then when He will, He bringeth him again to life.

86:5 So let man consider from what he is created.
86:6 He is created from a gushing fluid
86:7 That issued from between the loins and ribs.

95:4 Surely we created man out of the best stature
95:5 Then We reduced him to the lowest of the low

96:2 Who created man from a clot.
Part of list can be found at: answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/i015.html

Take your pick as to what we’re made of; oil, clot, dirt, etc.

Another proof of Islam’s claim on science…
In Sura 27:18-19 Solomon overhears a “conversation of ants”.
Is this possible based on our knowledge about the mode and complexity of ant communication?
See : answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/s001.html

 

[Montalban]

This reply neatly shows how you don’t really understand the idea of falsifiability!!!
Any discrepancy can’t be a discrepancy because Allah doesn’t change his mind? Clearly that fails the test of falsifiability!
So you have patently failed your own test.

Is this circular logic?

Tá Críosd ar éirigh!
Christ is risen.

 

[jack_hawkins]

Is this circular logic?

Tá Críosd ar éirigh!
Christ is risen.

YUP!
I had a Muslim emailing for a while about the scientific claims of the Koran. IF you take a very loose translation of the Koran and think imaginatively about how you can fit various verses to the known scientific verses, you might believe that the Koran is full of scientific facts. It is like interpreting Nostradamus - it is easy to fit his vague ramblings to events after they have happened! Post hoc analysis AKA the “retrospectoscope”. If however you examine the Koran with an objective framework for determining the accuracy of the scientific information, it is clear that there are no amazing revelations but only the sort of perspectives we expect from the knowledge of the time.
In any case, even if the Koran contained no discrepancies, what does that prove? My “Harrison’s Principles of Internal Medicine” contains no discrepancies but it doesn’t claim divine authorship or to represent the one true religion!? The phonebook may or may not contain any discrepancies, but it contains no amazing insights into the human condition either.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

There are also scientific facts by which to test the accuracy of what is written in scriptures…

Is there a scientific fact which tests the accuracy of my reliigon I call Davidianism? It asserts, “There is no God but God, and ITSJUSTDAVE1988 is His prophet.” Since there is no discrepancies, obviously this revelation is from God himself, no?

 

[jack_hawkins]

Is there a scientific fact which tests the accuracy of my reliigon I call Davidianism? It asserts, “There is no God but God, and ITSJUSTDAVE1988 is His prophet.” Since there is no discrepancies, obviously this revelation is from God himself, no?

like it!
Surely if you are wanting to persuade us Islam is “right”, hamba2han, you should be telling us to look at the life of Mohammed?
Surely Islam lives or dies by the nature of Mohammed “the perfect example for all time”? Why don’t you focus on Mohammed’s life?
His wives, wars and wrongdoing?

 

[hamba2han]

To all who are posting examples of discrepancies in the Qur’an from www.answering-islam.org, please remember that I can just as easily post the answers and refutations to all of these “discrepancies” by referring to www.answering-christianity.com.

What would be the point in spending the time and effort engaging in such a practice when one can easily go to these websites and read all the accusations and all of their corresponding refutations on the opposing website?

Also, Christians and Jews need to be mindful of the fact that many of the things that they are attacking which are found in the Qur’an, can also be found in the Bible.

And so, I do not quite understand what exactly is the point that they are trying to make here?

Does convincing yourself that the Qur’an is wrong sufficient “proof” for you that the Bible is true even though it contains pretty much the same things that you find so objectionable in the Qur’an… and often a lot worse even?

 

[Valke2]

To all who are posting examples of discrepancies in the Qur’an from www.answering-islam.org, please remember that I can just as easily post the answers and refutations to all of these “discrepancies” by referring to www.answering-christianity.com.

What would be the point in spending the time and effort engaging in such a practice when one can easily go to these websites and read all the accusations and all of their corresponding refutations on the opposing website?

Also, Christians and Jews need to be mindful of the fact that many of the things that they are attacking which are found in the Qur’an, can also be found in the Bible.

And so, I do not quite understand what exactly is the point that they are trying to make here?

Does convincing yourself that the Qur’an is wrong sufficient “proof” for you that the Bible is true even though it contains pretty much the same things that you find so objectionable in the Qur’an… and often a lot worse even?

Your’re kidding, right? You asked, specifically, for discrepancies in Quran as a way of testing its veracity. So to turn your confusion around, I do not quite understand what exactly is the point that you are trying to make here.

 

[hamba2han]

The whole point of this exercise is not to engage in debate just for the sake of debate but rather to sincerely seek the answer to the question of whether or not the Qur’an is truly the Word of the Creator.

If anyone can find a discrepancy in the Qur’an which has not already been asked by answering-Islam.org and correspondingly answered by answering-christianity.com, then I would be very interested to know about it.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

… I do not quite understand what exactly is the point that they are trying to make here?

Whaaaa? Aren’t YOU the one that started this thread with a bizzare claim which fell flat upon its face?:doh2:

 

[itsjustdave1988]

The whole point of this exercise is not to engage in debate just for the sake of debate but rather to sincerely seek the answer to the question of whether or not the Qur’an is truly the Word of the Creator.

If anyone can find a discrepancy in the Qur’an which has not already been asked by answering-Islam.org and correspondingly answered by answering-christianity.com, then I would be very interested to know about it.

And I’d be interested to know if anyone can find discrepancies in the Davidian Scripture which states: “There is no God but God, and ITSJUSTDAVE1988 is His prophet.”

I think the absurdity of your test is clear to all, and merely ignoring that absurdity is unconvincing.

The point which you don’t seem to have grasped yet is that self-consistency of a belief system does not prove it is true. Truth is that which corresponds to reality. If one’s beliefs correspond to reality, then one’s beliefs are true. Your test does not attempt to show the Quran corresponds to reality.

You simply trust the testimony given to you is true, as I trust the contrary testimony given to me is true.

 

[jack_hawkins]

The whole point of this exercise is not to engage in debate just for the sake of debate but rather to sincerely seek the answer to the question of whether or not the Qur’an is truly the Word of the Creator.

If anyone can find a discrepancy in the Qur’an which has not already been asked by answering-Islam.org and correspondingly answered by answering-christianity.com, then I would be very interested to know about it.

It is clear that your question is not being sincerely asked. In any case, the question “are there any discrepancies in the Koran” is totally separate from “is the Koran the word of the creator”.
Since to doubt this would mean not being a good Muslim, I very much doubt you are sincerely seeking an answer. So stop playing taqqiya games with the kufrs, they don’t all fall for them.
PS answering christianity - is that your own site by any chance? your tactics are familiar to me from FFI…

 

[hamba2han]

And I’d be interested to know if anyone can find discrepancies in the Davidian Scripture which states: “There is no God but God, and ITSJUSTDAVE1988 is His prophet.”

There is no discrepancy here… but you also need to remember that the Creator has given each of His creations a brain so as to enable them to evaluate these kind of “divine proofs” by themselves.

On the Day of Judgment, the creations will need to answer to their Creator why they have chosen to believe in the veracity of a ‘scripture’ which contains only one verse, however free of discrepancy it may have been.