How to test the truth of a religion

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But it’s wrong.

The Ancient Greeks had an idea of ‘atoms’ too, but it’s not like modern atomic theory. So are the Greeks just as ‘god-inspired’ as the Koran?
In both situations our language has developed, you cant hold that against them. Just because they didnt know that a “proton” was or the proper name of a " fetus" does not mean they were not on to something way before there time.
 
Now that we have seen and understood the inimitability of not only the eloquence of the language used in the Qur’an but also the structural beauty and magnificence of it’s previously unseen form of being part poetry and part rhyming prose as well, we can now go on to examine the arrangement of the chapters and verses in the Qur’an.

The following is an excerpt from an article:

In the Qur’an, the man who received its revelation did not wait until all its passages had been given to him. Indeed, he did not wait for a single surah to be completed before deciding on it’s arrangement. Whenever he received a passage or a single verse, he ordered that it should be placed in its particular slot in a well-defined position in its surah.

It should be emphasized here that the revelation of verses and passages did not follow the order in which they did occur in the Qur’an. Many a surah was revealed, in whole or in parts, interspersed with the revelation of other passages in different surahs. Many a verse is placed towards the end of a surah despite its being revealed much earlier than the parts preceding it, and vice versa. Indeed, the revelation and arrangement of Qur’anic verses and passages were two separate matters following two different routes which hardly ever met. This gives us a profoundly edifying aspect of the arrangement of this unique book.

If we look at each passage at the time of its revelation, and study the different aspects associated with its revelation: its timing, the events leading to it and the needs it satisfies, we are certain to conclude that each was topical at its particular time of revelation. Each one addressed a matter that happened to exist at a particular time.

Prior to the event concerned, there was no indication suggesting that it was forthcoming. Hence, each passage is a complete while that does not follow a pattern which puts it with other passages in a particular mould.

Let us at the same time consider how each passage is placed at the very moment of its revelation within a particular framework with either has been set in advance, or will be set at a later stage, and given a definite slot that occurs early or late within that framework.

At the time of its revelation, a passage is ordered to be placed, say, at the end of a particular surah, while another passage, revealed after a short or long while, is placed in the same surah, after a given number of its verses. One passage may be ordered to be placed at the outset of a surah of which no part has yet been revealed, while a subsequent passage is placed within a surah the rest of which has long since been revealed.

When we consider such detailed instructions on the arrangement of passages and Surahs we are bound to conclude that there is a complete and detailed plan assigning the position of each passage before they are all revealed. Indeed the arrangement is made before the reasons leading to the revelation of any passage occur, and even before the start of the preliminary causes of such events.

Nevertheless, this whole, meticulously detailed plan of distribution and arrangement was made with full resolve and determination. Not a single verse or passage placed in a particular surah was later moved to a different one. Nor was a verse placed at the beginning or the end of a surah ever re-assigned a different position in that same surah at a later stage.

Such are the plain facts about the arrangement of the Qur’an as it was revealed in separate verses, passages and surahs over a period of 23 years.

What does that tell us about it’s source?
Why are you posting this stuff? If you had bothered to read anything anyone has written since you posted your last “miracle”, or even before that for that matter, you would know that you thinking the Qu’ran is beautiful is not going to convince anyone here that its author is God.
 
Actually medical info in the quran isn’t any more advanced then what Galen taught. If anything the Greeks were more advanced. When exposed to the light the so called “miracle” of the quran and its claims crumble.
 
So then this is wrong?
I have to admit that I am not a big fan of Rashad Khalifa and I do not agree with a lot that he said.

In any case, the notable thing he did was that he decided to remove two verses from Surah at-Tawba in the Qur’an.

For Muslims, this is a extremely serious sin and this is why the vast majority do not accept it.

However, for non-Muslims, what difference does it make to them since these two verses which were removed do not affect in the least the really big question of whether or not the Qur’an comes from the Creator?

It is just so easy to check the authenticity and the accuracy of the Qur’an as all that one needs to do is to check the Qur’an we have today with that of the original copies that Caliph Uthman (ra) made, two of which have survived to this day.

The only difference between the present-day Qur’an and the Tashkent Qur’an is the addition of diacritical marks to help non-Arab Muslims pronounce the Qur’anic verses in the most correct way possible.

And so, to even suggest that Uthman (ra) or for that matter any of the companions of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) would even think of making textual changes to the Qur’an that the Prophet (pbuh) left is just absolutely ridiculous.
Are “the stars were created as missiles to throw at the jinns”, metaphorical or literal? And if the former, what does it mean?:rolleyes:
First off, it is not ‘stars’ but ‘flaming fire’ which is the term used according to the English translation and most (although not all) interpreters of the Qur’an would say that this means shooting stars or meteors.

Surah Jinn, Verses 1-15
1 Say (O Muhammad SAW): “It has been revealed to me that a group (from three to ten in number) of jinns listened (to this Quran). They said: Verily! We have heard a wonderful Recital (this Quran)!
2 It guides to the Right Path, and we have believed therein, and we shall never join (in worship) anything with our Lord (Allah).
3 And exalted be the Majesty of our Lord, He has taken neither a wife, nor a son (or offspring or children).
4 And that the foolish among us (i.e. Iblees (Satan) or the polytheists amongst the jinns) used to utter against Allah that which was wrong and not right.
5 And verily, we thought that men and jinns would not utter a lie against Allah.
6 And verily, there were men among mankind who took shelter with the masculine among the jinns, but they (jinns) increased them (mankind) in sin and disbelief.
7 And they thought as you thought, that Allah will not send any Messenger (to mankind or jinns).
8 And we have sought to reach the heaven; but found it filled with stern guards and flaming fires.
9 And verily, we used to sit there in stations, to (steal) a hearing, but any who listens now will find a flaming fire watching him in ambush.
10 And we know not whether evil is intended for those on earth, or whether their Lord intends for them a Right Path.
11 There are among us some that are righteous, and some the contrary; we are groups each having a different way (religious sect, etc.).
12 And we think that we cannot escape (from the punishment of) Allah in the earth, nor can we escape (from the punishment) by flight.
13 And indeed when we heard the Guidance (this Quran), we believed therein (Islamic Monotheism), and whosoever believes in his Lord shall have no fear, either of a decrease in the reward of his good deeds or an increase in punishment for his sins.
14 And of us some are Muslims (who have submitted to Allah, after listening to this Quran), and of us some are Al-Qasitoon (disbelievers those who have deviated from the Right Path). And whosoever has embraced Islam (i.e. has become a Muslim by submitting to Allah), then such have sought the Right Path.”
15 And as for the Qasitoon (disbelievers who deviated from the Right Path), they shall be firewood for Hell,


Are there any scientific evidences that you know of that will disprove the validity of the above Qur’anic verses, specifically with regard to the ‘flaming fires’?
 
copies that were made 20 years after Mohammed (pbuh) died. So that leaves 20 years for corruption of text, at a minimum.

But I have no problem with accepting your assertion that the QUran you read today is word for word the same as the earliest copies known to exist. I’m not sure what that proves to you.
 
In both situations our language has developed, you cant hold that against them. Just because they didnt know that a “proton” was or the proper name of a " fetus" does not mean they were not on to something way before there time.
Using Occam’s Razor, it is more likely (since it requires the least number of new postulates) that when it appears that someone had ideas “before their time” (as hamba2han is suggesting for the Koran) that our perception of those peoples is wrong, than there has been any divine inspiration.

furthermore, when a new concept is described even in these days, if there is no word available then a description using current words is used. there was no word for “laser” before lasers were invented, but it could be described as “an intense burst of polarised light” (IIRC), and we would recognize that description
it is clear that the descriptions in the Koran do not fall into that category
 
Basically we don’t know if the quran is unaltered or if everything muhammed invented got in it. It took decades to compile and their were variant texts, some of which survive. So even muslims can’t be sure if all the verses made it or if some got in that shouldn’t. They took the satanic verses out even in muhammeds day. Even aisha complained that some surahs got left out. The quran’s origin is highly suspect and untrustworth, just like the book itself.
 
The Qur’an is miraculous not just from a scientific perspective but at the time of it’s revelation, the most convincing proof of all to the society that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) lived in was that it’s astounding, inimitable style from a literary perspective means that the Qur’an could not possibly have been authored by him or any other human being.
That’s a nifty article of faith, and I admire you for holding it, but it’s simply a bald assertion.

It is not based on anything, whatsoever.
The Qur’an in many places challenges the people to produce a surah like it and the verses dealing with the challenge are given below (Hilali and Muhsin Khan’s Translation):

Say: “If the mankind and the jinns were together to produce the like of this Qur’an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another.” [Qur’an 17:88]
Why? What is the characteristic(s) of the koran that couldn’t be reproduced?

Show me!
And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Qur’an) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a surah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah, if you are truthful. [Qur’an 2:23]
Who would judge, and by what criteria, that a “valid” sura was produced?
And this Qur’an is not such as could ever be produced by other than Allah (Lord of the heavens and the earth), but it is a confirmation of (the revelation) which was before it , and a full explanation of the Book (i.e. laws and orders, etc, decreed for mankind) - wherein there is no doubt from the the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns,and all that exists).

Since the torah, gospel and other “confirming” documents aren’t the ones that the authors of those books would recognize, and these “mythical books” are the only ones that “support” the koran, this statement is self-serving, and proof of nothing.
Or do they say: “He (Muhammad(P)) has forged it?” Say: "Bring then a surah (chapter) like unto it, and call upon whomsoever you can, besides Allah, if you are truthful!"
[Qur’an 10:37-38]

I don’t think Mamet “forged” it. He simply wrote it, probably in collaboration with others, with some composed “posthumously”.

I’m also not sure how “calling upon whomsoever you can besides allah” means by way of “proof”?
**Or they say, “He (Prophet Muhammad(P)) forged it (the Qur’an).” Say: “Bring you then ten forged surah (chapters) like unto it, and call whomsoever you can, other than Allah (to your help), if you speak the truth!” **
[Qur’an 11:13]

…same as the paragraph above.
Or do they say: “He (Muhammad(P)) has forged it (this Qur’an)?” Nay! They believe not! Let them then produce a recital like unto it (the Qur’an) if they are truthful.
[Qur’an 52:33-34]

…same as the paragraph above.
Needless to say, this challenge of the Qur’an has never been met…
…because it’s not a challenge at all…!
and I do not expect that anyone here would wish to try this challenge because the surah (chapter) that you need to produce must of course be in Arabic i.e. the language of the Qur’an.
What is it, even in arabic, that makes it “unreproducible”…!?

Give us some criteria here…!! 🙂
Nevertheless, the fact that not even a single one of the very many masters of poetry and prose in all of the land of ancient Arabia at the time and ever since could succeed in meeting this literary challenge certainly proves that the Qur’an is indeed inimitable.
Once again,… how do we know that?
For those who wish to learn more about this miraculous, inimitable style of the Qur’an, then perhaps you can start by reading this short article
.

I’ll check that out…! Thanks… 🙂

(After checking it out shortly…) Right,… so you take various “numerological” (idolatrous) practices to establish the “miraculousness” of the koran.

Well,… have fun with those little games, but they prove nothing other than you refuse to desist in forbidden “divinitory” practices.

…not exactly a great “proof”.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.
 
The following is an excerpt from an article:

The Arabic language and Arab speech are divided into two branches. One of them is rhymed poetry. It is a speech with metre and rhyme, which means every line of it ends upon a definite letter, which is called the ‘rhyme’. This rhymed poetry is again divided into metres or what is called as al-Bihar, literally meaning ‘The Seas’. This is so called because of the way the poetry moves according to the rhythmic patterns. There are sixteen al-Bihar viz; at-Tawil, al-Bassit, al-Wafir, al-Kamil, ar-Rajs, al-Khafif, al-Hazaj, al-Muttakarib, al-Munsarih, al-Muktatab, al-Muktadarak, al-Madid, al-Mujtath, al-Ramel, al-Khabab and as-Saria’. Each one rhymes differently.

The other branch of Arabic speech is prose, that is non-metrical speech. The prose may be a rhymed prose. Rhymed prose consists of cola ending on the same rhyme throughout, or of sentences rhymed in pairs. This is called “rhymed prose” or sajc. Prose may also be straight prose (mursal). In straight prose, the speech goes on and is not divided in cola, but is continued straight through without any divisions, either of rhyme or of anything else. Prose is employed in sermons and prayers and in speeches intended to encourage or frighten the masses.

So, the challenge is to produce in Arabic, three lines, that do not fall into one of these sixteen al-Bihar, that is not rhyming prose, nor like the speech of soothsayers, and not normal speech, that it should contain at least a comprehensible meaning and rhetoric, i.e. not gobbledygook.

It is interesting to note that all of the known pre-Islam and post-Islamic poetry falls in the above sixteen metres or al-Bihar. Indeed the pagans of Mecca repeatedly accuse Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) of being a forger, a soothsayer etc. The Arabs who were at the pinnacle of their poetry and prose during the time of revelation of the Qur’an could not even produce the smallest surah of its like. The Qur’an’s form did not fit into any of the above mentioned categories. It was this that made the Qur’an inimitable, and left the pagan Arabs at a loss as to how they might combat it.

And as the Qur’an itself says:

And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true. But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith. (Qur’an 2:23-24)
"So, the challenge is to produce in Arabic, three lines, that do not fall into one of these sixteen al-Bihar, that is not rhyming prose, nor like the speech of soothsayers, and not normal speech, that it should contain at least a comprehensible meaning and rhetoric, i.e. not gobbledygook."


That’s very cool…!!

I give nearly infinite power to be “clever” to Satan, and his minions,… and am QUITE sure that they’d be able to pull off that little trick…!

What you’re saying might be a decent argument that Mamet, with his human nature, couldn’t have composed the koran,… but it doesn’t preclude his getting a little “help”.

What is your answer to that?

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.
 
In any case, the notable thing he did was that he decided to remove two verses from Surah at-Tawba in the Qur’an.

For Muslims, this is a extremely serious sin and this is why the vast majority do not accept it.

However, for non-Muslims, what difference does it make to them since these two verses which were removed do not affect in the least the really big question of whether or not the Qur’an comes from the Creator?
So, it’s a MAJOR sin to change the “word of God”, but, what the heck,… why is THAT such a big deal…!!?

That shows me precisely the moslem attitude toward the REAL God,… utter contempt unless they can “use Him” to get what they want,… just like the nasty self-serving attitude of the little children that they are.

They (moslems) are slaves, not sons and daughters, of their “god”, who is not God.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.
 
First off, it is not ‘stars’ but ‘flaming fire’ which is the term used according to the English translation and most (although not all) interpreters of the Qur’an would say that this means shooting stars or meteors.
Why do you keep dodging this issue? Would God make such a ridiculous statement?

Shooting Stars Used as Missiles to Hit the Jinn

Muhammad just as his Bedouin contemporaries had a strange belief in shadowy beings and ghosts that he called Jinn.

These Jinns were made of fire and would stand on top of each other’s shoulders all the way to heaven to eavesdrop to what was being discussed. But the most amusing part is that the prophet believed that the shooting stars and the meteors are the missiles thrown at the eavesdropping Jinns.
Q. 72: 8
And (the Jinn who had listened to the Qur’an said): We had sought the heaven but had found it filled with strong warders and meteors.
9.
And we used to sit on places (high) therein to listen. But he who listeneth now findeth a flame in wait for him;"

*He repeated the same absurd idea again. *

Q. 37: 6/10
”We have indeed decked the lower heaven with beauty (in) the stars,
(For beauty) and for guard against all obstinate rebellious evil spirits,
(So) they should not strain their ears in the direction of the Exalted Assembly but be cast away from every side,
Repulsed, for they are under a perpetual penalty,

*Except such as snatch away something by stealth, and they are pursued by a flaming fire, of piercing brightness. *

And

Q. 67: 5http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/067.qmt.html#067.005
*“And we have, (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such (Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.” *
The universe as was envisioned by Muhammad, obviously belongs to the realm of fairy tales. The Earth for him was flat were the sun rises from one end and sets in the muddy waters on the other. In Arabic the word “sama” stands for both heaven and sky. And for Muhammad, just like his primitive contemporaries there was no distinction between the two. He described the heaven (sky) made of seven layers and placed the stars in the lowest layer, lower than the Moon. Then he envisioned the mythical Jinns as if they were real beings, standing on each other’s shoulders all the way to heaven to eavesdrop to the discussion of the “Exalted Assembly”. He assumed that the stars are just lamps to adorn the lower heaven that are also used as missiles to shoot the intruding Jinns. Can any reasonable person today accept these fables of those primitive people as true?
The shooting stars, despite their names are not stars but meteorites that glow when enter the atmosphere of the Earth. But Muhammad, could not see the difference; to him the shooting stars were stars.

cont.
 
cont
As absurd as it may be, today’s Muslims still believe in the Jinns. It is written in Quran and for them the Quran is the word of Allah. How can it be wrong?

There is also a Hadith that confirms the above story.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 432
.
Narrated 'Aisha:
I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, “The angels descend, the clouds and mention this or that matter decreed in the Heaven. The devils listen stealthily to such a matter, come down to inspire the soothsayers with it, and the latter would add to it one-hundred lies of their own.”

A similar hadith is reported in Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 93, Number 650
Ali Sina

faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/shooting_stars.htm
 
copies that were made 20 years after Mohammed (pbuh) died. So that leaves 20 years for corruption of text, at a minimum.
There is just no plausible way that the text of the Qur’an could have been corrupted or altered.

The following is an excerpt from an article

One of the most common myths about the Qur’an, is that Usman (r.a.), the third Caliph of Islam authenticated and compiled one Qur’an, from a large set of mutually contradicting copies. The Qur’an, revered as the Word of Allah (swt) by Muslims the world over, is the same Qur’an as the one revealed to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). It was authenticated and written under his personal supervision. We will examine the roots of the myth which says that Usman (r.a.) had the Qur’an authenticated.:
  1. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself supervised and authenticated the written texts of the Qur’an
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was an Ummi who could not read and write. Therefore, after receiving each revelation, he would repeat it to his Companions. They would write down the revelation, and he would recheck by asking them to read what they had written. If there was any mistake, the Prophet would immediately point it out and have it corrected and rechecked. Similarly he would even recheck and authenticate the portions of the Qur’an memorized by the Companions. In this way, the complete Qur’an was written down under the personal supervision of the Prophet (pbuh).
  1. Order and sequence of Qur’an divinely inspired
The complete Qur’an was revealed over a period of 22½ years portion by portion, as and when it was required. The Qur’an was not compiled by the Prophet in the chronological order of revelation. The order and sequence of the Qur’an too was Divinely inspired and was instructed to the Prophet by Allah (swt) through archangel Jibraeel. Whenever a revelation was conveyed to his companions, the Prophet would also mention in which surah (chapter) and after which ayat (verse) this new revelation should fit.

Every Ramadhaan all the portions of the Qur’an that had been revealed, including the order of the verses, were revised and reconfirmed by the Prophet with archangel Jibraeel. During the last Ramadhaan, before the demise of the Prophet, the Qur’an was rechecked and reconfirmed twice.

It is therefore clearly evident that the Qur’an was compiled and authenticated by the Prophet himself during his lifetime, both in the written form as well as in the memory of several of his Companions.
  1. Qur’an copied on one common material
The complete Qur’an, along with the correct sequence of the verses, was present during the time of the Prophet (pbuh). The verses however, were written on separate pieces, scrapes of leather, thin flat stones, leaflets, palm branches, shoulder blades, etc. After the demise of the prophet, Abu Bakr (r.a.), the first caliph of Islam ordered that the Qur’an be copied from the various different materials on to a common material and place, which was in the shape of sheets. These were tied with strings so that nothing of the compilation was lost.
  1. Usman (r.a.) made copies of the Qur’an from the original manuscript
Many Companions of the Prophet used to write down the revelation of the Qur’an on their own whenever they heard it from the lips of the Prophet. However what they wrote was not personally verified by the Prophet and thus could contain mistakes and there were high possibilities of different portions of the Qur’an being missed by different Companions. This gave rise to disputes among Muslims regarding the different contents of the Qur’an during the period of the third Caliph Usman (r.a.).

Usman (r.a.) borrowed the original manuscript of the Qur’an, which was authorized by the beloved Prophet (pbuh), from Hafsha (may Allah be pleased with her), the Prophet’s wife. Usman (r.a.) ordered four Companions who were among the scribes who wrote the Qur’an when the Prophet dictated it, led by Zaid bin Thabit (r.a.) to rewrite the script in several perfect copies. These were sent by Usman (r.a.) to the main centres of Muslims.

Two such copies of the copied text of the original Qur’an authenticated by the Prophet are present to this day, one at the museum in Tashkent in erstwhile Soviet Union and the other at the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul, Turkey.

And so, there is really no doubt at all that Qur’an that we see today is, word for word and syllable for syllable, exactly the same copy that was authenticated by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself before his demise.
 
There is just no plausible way that the text of the Qur’an could have been corrupted or altered.

And so, there is really no doubt at all that Qur’an that we see today is, word for word and syllable for syllable, exactly the same copy that was authenticated by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself before his demise.
In all sincerity, what about the “Satanic verses”?
 
I have to wonder hamba2han, if the Quran has not been corrupted or altered surely there is an exisiting copy of the Quran from the time of Mohemmed that proves this. If this is the case why isn’t this presented as evidence instead of always making circular arguements to “prove” the point. Doesn’t the Quran say something like: if you are truthful show me the evidence?
 
It is very plausable. In fact that’s exactly what happened. They destroyed variant copies, most of them anyway, and then claim there were none. Notice the illogic?

hamba here is just cutting and pasting. He is not responding to any question put to him. I can understand that he doesn’t have any answers, but he should be honest and admit it. If he is just going to paste articles then he needs to find another forum.

hamba, answer the questions put to you or give it up.
 
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