How to test the truth of a religion

[murtad]

It is unfair to subject the Quaran to such testing as the Non-Moslem world has a vested interest to find error.

Sixtus, do you know that Muslims are a just one people out of many, they should have no special priveledges to claim Muslim supremacy. Non-Muslims, OTOH are made up of Catholics, Sikhs, Baha’is, Buddhists, Hindus and Zoroastrians as well as Atheists/Agnostics. If all 7 different people (who adhere by 7 different belief-systems) agree that Qur’an has errors, then the majority win. Christianity is democratic, while Islam is dictatorial. Jesus our Lord was the father of democracy and he sent his armies to conquer the Romans in 400 years without bloodshed by winning their hearts of the pagans.

What caused the lands of the Romans (or if you prefer Byzantines) to be conquered by the armies of the Anti-Christ, Islam? Anyone who did serious study of both Catholic and Byzantine history, will notice it was those Coptic Monophysites who betrayed the Catholic Church by colloborating with the Islamic Mujahideen. That’s how a Christian-majority country was forced converted to Islam. If you don’t believe me, read about it at Faith Freedom International

How nice it would be if Egyptian Christians had accepted the Holy Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon and its dogma of papal infalliblity! Then, there would be Christian unity first and foremost plus Egyptians would still be speaking the ancient Egyptian language today and continue to adhere by the Christian Catholic faith. However, the Egyptians (ie Coptic Monophysites) rebeled against Jesus our Lord by rejecting Chalcedon and even ex-communicated St Leo I the Great. That’s why God punished them by Arabising their tongue and rendering Coptic language as a dead language.

If we insist on doing that then surely we are inviting Moslems to ‘spot the errors’ in the bible. We KNOW there are errors in the New Testament. There are an amalgum of reasons why they exist, which does not prove the original texts are wrong, only that there were obviously errors in translation. So too with the Quaran

If Muslims or Monophysites wants to try “spot the errors” in both Bible and Holy Tradition of the Catholic Church, they are welcome. I challenge them to find even one error and gurantee them that they will fail.

 

[Valke2]

oy.

 

[murtad]

You’re not very good at defending Islam…with good reason. There is no defense to a lie.

There is nothing a Muslim (or Muslimah) could do to intellectually defend Islam’s primary sources Qur’an and Hadith. That’s why Islamist-leaning Muslims resort to ad hominems, tu qoques, foul language and sometimes even threats of violence to scare people from critically discussing the text of both Qur’an and Hadith.

Even though you feel your arguments slipping away, you harden your heart to the Truth and continue to defend the lie. It’s sad really and no longer worth continuing the debate with you.

That sounds like the Pharisees of the New Testament who were condemned by our Lord for hardening their hearts to the Truth.

 

[murtad]

It is very plausable. In fact that’s exactly what happened. They destroyed variant copies, most of them anyway, and then claim there were none. Notice the illogic?

Yes, I noticed the illogic.

hamba here is just cutting and pasting. He is not responding to any question put to him. I can understand that he doesn’t have any answers, but he should be honest and admit it. If he is just going to paste articles then he needs to find another forum.

He is already defeated

hamba, answer the questions put to you or give it up.

He will never admit that he has lost.

 

[jack_hawkins]

There is just no plausible way that the text of the Qur’an could have been corrupted or altered

making such a bold assertion which is contrary to the known facts let alone plain commonsense just makes you sound like a fanatic who is immune to logic - are you?

 

[Montalban]

In both situations our language has developed, you cant hold that against them. Just because they didnt know that a “proton” was or the proper name of a " fetus" does not mean they were not on to something way before there time.

That misses the point of the example. The Koran is put forward as some kind of super-natural book because it has ‘examples’ of knowledge we’re not supposed to have known then such as how a foetus forms.

When I point out that the Koran calls the developemental stage a ‘clot’ (which is a totally different thing) I’m told that for it’s time, ‘clot’ is an advancement.

And then I introduce the Greek example. It too is just as advanced as the Koran in science - in the example of atomic theory. It doesn’t matter that ‘for it’s time’ it was the best explanation. What matters is that it is just as advanced as the Koran. SO we see ‘inspired’ science coming from pagan sources. What Moslem is going to attribute this ‘advancement’ (for it’s time) to al-Lah as well?

Sorry you missed this as an example

 

[murtad]

An upright person (Muslim or otherwise) who has sincerity and honor within their own character, would at a minimum acknowledge the simple errors of the “revelations” of an ancient pagan 7th century moon god, to an illiterate messenger that promotes war, not peace; death not life; and ignorance not knowledge.

Please don’t forget that what is called today as the “Arab World” especially North Africa and Middle East are not really Arab but Arabised peoples whose original ethnicity was Coptic and Syriac. The racist Islamic armies forced converted this Christian-majority region to a Muslim-majority region through (1) Arabisation, ie. native languages were forbidden to be spoken and the conquered Christian peoples had to speak the language of their Islamic imperial masters; (2) the use of Jizyah and Kharaj taxation.

Taking nothing away from, or dispraging those who can speak/read/write classical Arabic; to limit the “true understanding of gods word” because it was the language in which it was revealed to “only a warner” 1400 years ago is silly. You yourself limit the power of God by claiming only in that language will a true understanding be gained. The true God would (and did) make His word available to the very simple so they could easily understnd what He was saying to us.

There is nothing difficult about Arabic - its just another language. If a person can learn to speak the Hebrew language, then I do not think that it is difficult to learn to speak Arabic? The Islamist propaganda is usually Qur’an is very difficult to understand for a non Muslim, but they keep forgetting the many Christians speak Arabic as a primary language.

I think it was no accident that the actual Word was given when and how it was through Christ. Greek culture was what did this when after Christ’s ministry was completed to the his own Chosen People in Aramaic and/or Hebrew; the Hellenistic culture of the Gentiles which was the inrode to the most powerful nation-state of the day: Rome. Not only did the Word spread so successfully in a complete opposite way as Islam. Not by war and fear, but by the Love of Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit. From criminally persecuted to Emperor- it took about 300 years to overcome by love and truth the very power that crucified our Lord. “Our” to include you, though you deny Him the honor he rightly deserves.

There are two conquerers of Rome: first a man of peace, second a man of war. This man of peace was our Lord Jesus who I call the father of democracy for he sent his “soldiers” to evangelise the Romans by love and within 400 years the Roman Empire was conquered bloodlessly with Constantine becoming the first Christian Caesar. The man of war was Islam’s Muhammad (and also his 4 Caliphs) who sent their soldiers to conquer both the Romans and the Persians in a very bloody way - convert, or pay tribute and live under subjugation, or die.

I will use your own holy words to explain why I will no longer debate with a dishonest, insincere person such as yourself.

Have you discussed with him by private message? If no, I would recommend you do so. Try to convert him as I am doing

Beware of false prophets who come to you disguised as sheep but underneath are ravenous wolves. You will be able to tell them by their fruits…I repeat, you will be able to tell them by their fruits. (Jn 7:15-20)

Yes, that 7th century Arab tribesman Muhammad was not a prophet and remains unfit to be called a prophet.

A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." John 13:34-35

Classical Islam totally rejects this command to love one another. But there are good Muslims and these are the Muslims who reject Sharia and opt for seperation of mosque from state. We call them secularist Muslims.

 

[hamba2han]

What you’re saying might be a decent argument that Muhammad (pbuh), with his human nature, couldn’t have composed the Qur’an,… but it doesn’t preclude his getting a little “help”.

What is your answer to that?

Some claim that the Quran was the work of the devil. Let us examine how much sense (or non-sense) this allegation makes.

If he authored or inspired the Quran, why would Satan curse himself and call himself the worst enemy of man (Q.35:6; 36:60)? Why would Satan command that before reciting the Quran, one must first say:

**“I seek refuge in God from Satan the accursed.” **(Quran 16:98)

How could Satan so vehemently condemn himself? Is it really acceptable to common sense to hold the view that Satan would ask people to do good, to be moral and virtuous, to worship none but God, to not follow Satan or his whispers, and to avoid and struggle against evil?

To hold such a view is clearly repugnant to reason, as Satan has only undermined himself through this means if he is the author. Even the Bible attests:

**“And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but is coming to an end.” **(Mark 3:26)[2]

This argument applies to any “Satanic forces”, be they “evil spirits”, “deceitful aliens”, etc.

========================

http://farshores.org/ufo06per.gif

And speaking of “aliens”, this photograph of an unidentified flying object was taken in June 2006 in the vicinity of the Ubinas volcano in Peru.

I really do not know how real it is but in the event that it is, then how does anyone know that the creatures traveling in it are not of the jinn family?

To be honest, I too have no clue whatsoever if indeed these UFOs and space aliens belong in the domain of the jinn but considering the all too frequent “sightings” of these UFOs and the occasional reports of “alien abductions”, then it just seems to me that this is a far more likely possibility than the idea that they are visitors from distant planets in faraway galaxies.

In all sincerity, what about the “Satanic verses”?

I believe that this and also this adequately explains the matter.

I have to wonder hamba2han, if the Quran has not been corrupted or altered surely there is an exisiting copy of the Quran from the time of Mohemmed that proves this. If this is the case why isn’t this presented as evidence instead of always making circular arguements to “prove” the point. Doesn’t the Quran say something like: if you are truthful show me the evidence?

This manuscript, held by the Muslim Board of Uzbekistan, is the earliest existent written version of the Quran. It is the definitive version, known as the Mushaf of Othman. Image courtesy of Memory of the World Register, UNESCO.

A facsimile of the mushaf in Tashkent is available at the Columbia University Library in the US. This copy is proof that the text of the Quran we have in circulation today is identical with that of the time of the Prophet and his companions. A copy of the mushaf sent to Syria (duplicated before a fire in 1310AH/1892CE destroyed the Jaami’ Masjid where it was housed) also exists in the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul and an early manuscript on gazelle parchment exists in Dar al-Kutub as-Sultaniyyah in Egypt. More ancient manuscripts from all periods of Islamic history found in the Library of Congress in Washington, the Chester Beatty Museum in Dublin (Ireland) and the London Museum have been compared with those in Tashkent, Turkey and Egypt, with results confirming that there have not been any changes in the text from its original time of writing.

 

[George_Waters]

Some claim that the Quran was the work of the devil. Let us examine how much sense (or non-sense) this allegation makes.

If he authored or inspired the Quran, why would Satan curse himself and call himself the worst enemy of man (Q.35:6; 36:60)? Why would Satan command that before reciting the Quran, one must first say:

**“I seek refuge in God from Satan the accursed.” **(Quran 16:98)

How could Satan so vehemently condemn himself? Is it really acceptable to common sense to hold the view that Satan would ask people to do good, to be moral and virtuous, to worship none but God, to not follow Satan or his whispers, and to avoid and struggle against evil?

To hold such a view is clearly repugnant to reason, as Satan has only undermined himself through this means if he is the author. Even the Bible attests:

**“And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but is coming to an end.” **(Mark 3:26)[2]

This argument applies to any “Satanic forces”, be they “evil spirits”, “deceitful aliens”, etc.

Just to play along… because Satan wants you to believe the Quran is from God and not from him so by stating you should curse him it throws you off and causes you to insist the Quran is from God the whole while actually doing the bidding of Satan. What better thing for Satan than to get you to do the work of the devil in the name of God? Elementary my dear Holmes!

 

[George_Waters]

Thanks for the links hamba2han. Can you provide a link from an independet source showing the date of this Quran and stating all current Qurans conform to it? Thanks.

 

[hamba2han]

Thanks for the links hamba2han. Can you provide a link from an independet source showing the date of this Quran and stating all current Qurans conform to it? Thanks.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4581684.stm

 

[George_Waters]

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4581684.stm

Thanks. I will check it out. So, what about my explaination as to why Satan would curse himself? Just curious.

 

[cestusdei]

hamba, the devil is not above using deception. The quran is full of exhortations to violence that muslims have taken serious and practiced since day one. The overall tenor of the book is one of fear, death, violence, and hate. Never does it say that “God is love.” The quran fails every test.

You have lost this debate.

 

[George_Waters]

From the link news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4581684.stm you provided:

“To prevent disputes about which verses should be considered divinely inspired, Othman had this definitive version compiled. It was completed in the year 651, only 19 years after Muhammad’s death.”

1. So certain verse were in dispute about which verse were divinely INSPIRED? Why was there dispute if the Quran is not inspired, but the literal word of God? That makes no sense.
2. If the Quran is the literal word of God, why is this refered to as Othman’s VERSION? That makes no sense.

*“About one-third of the original survives - about 250 pages - a huge volume written in a bold Arabic script.” “It is said that Caliph Othman made five copies of the original Koran. A partial Koran now in the Topkapi Palace in Istanbul is said to be another of these original copies.” *

1. How can we be sure all subsequent copies comform to this one if only 1/3 of one survives and only a partial of another?

“Later disputes over the succession led to a division between the mainstream Sunnis, and supporters of Othman’s immediate successor, Ali, who became Shias. “

1. So Othman was murdered by Sunnis and now they use his book as the difinitave authority and reject the claims of his supporters and even call them heritics? That seems a bit odd.

 

[George_Waters]

answering-christianity.com/satanic_verses.htm

• Jesus killed a boy when he was a teenager, and he was arrogant toward animals

Only Muslims believe this then use it to attack Christians. That has got to be the epitome of desperate apologitics! “Only we believe in this and this is bad so YOU are bad!” Lame hamba2han, lame.

Islam’s hole just keeps getting deeper here doesn’t it folks?

 

[Keikiolu]

How is it more absurd than believing in demons, angels, or Satan?

Uh,… they ARE demons…!!

They’re NOT angels, as angels identify themselves as coming from God.

Of course I believe in the Jinn…!

It’s just the moslem name for “demons”.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikiolu forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
What you’re saying might be a decent argument that Muhammad (pbuh), with his human nature, couldn’t have composed the Qur’an,… but it doesn’t preclude his getting a little “help”.

What is your answer to that?

Some claim that the Quran was the work of the devil. Let us examine how much sense (or non-sense) this allegation makes.

If he authored or inspired the Quran, why would Satan curse himself and call himself the worst enemy of man (Q.35:6; 36:60)? Why would Satan command that before reciting the Quran, one must first say:

**“I seek refuge in God from Satan the accursed.” **(Quran 16:98)

Because he’s trying to say that “that other guy” is Satan,… not him…!!

Your primary assumtion is that the koran is always from God. That’s fine for you to believe, but I propose otherwise.

There is no reason that Satan would be constrained from claiming he was God, and that those “against him” are from Satan, in a book that he “authored”.

How could Satan so vehemently condemn himself? Is it really acceptable to common sense to hold the view that Satan would ask people to do good, to be moral and virtuous, to worship none but God, to not follow Satan or his whispers, and to avoid and struggle against evil?

Your “morality” and “virtue” are not necessarily mine, nor God’s, and in fact CAN’T be if they are promulgated in a book authored by the “deceiver”, unless Satan granted the promotion of some actual virtures so as to “get his nose under the tent flap” for his own reasons.

Just as God uses ALL situations, even those containing evil, to do good,… Satan uses ALL situations, even those containing good, to do evil.

…{snip}…

And speaking of “aliens”, this photograph of an unidentified flying object was taken in June 2006 in the vicinity of the Ubinas volcano in Peru.

I really do not know how real it is but in the event that it is, then how does anyone know that the creatures traveling in it are not of the jinn family?

Moslems will believe anything. Since they, apparently, aren’t informed that they should stay away from non-God supernatural things, they are prone to all sorts of this nonsense.

…{snip}…

Sad isn’t it.

…but, hey,… keep talking to us Ham. You’re proving our case beautifully.

Thanks again…!

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Is there any falsification test in your religion? Is there anything in your religion that would prove you are wrong if I could prove to you that it exists - anything?

In short answer to the many response you have had so far- Yes. The test is being honest. But yours doen’t, and I’m not sure you have been. I’d like to find out.

I have a challange for you. It’s simple. I would like you to read this book.

amazon.com/Jesus-Muhammad-Differences-Surprising-Similarities/dp/customer-reviews/1591852919

In fact, I would buy it for you and send it to you if you like so you lose nothing but the time to read it. It’s not a big book, so even that won’t be much of a loss if you reject it.

On the flip side I will read any book you suggest.

We will read each others book and return here to openly discuss why or why not the arguments presented are true or false. I have no fear of finding fault in my faith, for if I find fault with it, it would be good to know. Bottom line for me is,- am I being honest with myslef in my belief. If the bones of Christ were found, my faith would be false. If differing 1st century Gospels were found- my faith would be in error.

Are you willing?

 

[George_Waters]

We will read each others book and return here to openly discuss why or why not the arguments presented are true or false. I have no fear of finding fault in my faith, for if I find fault with it, it would be good to know. Bottom line for me is,- am I being honest with myslef in my belief. If the bones of Christ were found, my faith would be false. If differing 1st century Gospels were found- my faith would be in error.

Are you willing?

This is a fair challange hamba2han. You should accept.

 

[hamba2han]

In short answer to the many response you have had so far- Yes. The test is being honest. But yours doen’t, and I’m not sure you have been. I’d like to find out.

I have a challange for you. It’s simple. I would like you to read this book.

amazon.com/Jesus-Muhammad-Differences-Surprising-Similarities/dp/customer-reviews/1591852919

In fact, I would buy it for you and send it to you if you like so you lose nothing but the time to read it. It’s not a big book, so even that won’t be much of a loss if you reject it.

On the flip side I will read any book you suggest.

We will read each others book and return here to openly discuss why or why not the arguments presented are true or false. I have no fear of finding fault in my faith, for if I find fault with it, it would be good to know. Bottom line for me is,- am I being honest with myslef in my belief. If the bones of Christ were found, my faith would be false. If differing 1st century Gospels were found- my faith would be in error.

Are you willing?

There is something that everyone needs to realise here i.e. convincing oneself that Islam is wrong does not prove that Christianity is correct… or vice versa.

The challenge that the Qur’an poses is to either find errors in the Qur’an or to produce a chapter like it.

Does the Bible offer this same challenge?

And so, I really do not see what good this challenge of reading another book than either the Bible or the Qur’an is going to do anyone.

This has actually reminded me of the reason why I opened this thread i.e. not to engage in debate just for the sake of debating but to sincerely seek the answer to the question of whether the Qur’an is truly the Word of the Creator.

If the Qur’an is indeed the Word of God, then those who have rejected it in this world will most definitely have to explain to their Creator on the Day of Judgment why they have chosen to do so.

For those who are refusing to accept the truth of the Qur’an, the question that you should be asking yourself is:

Does the scripture that you believe in pass the same test of truthfulness that you obviously feel the Qur’an does not?