How to test the truth of a religion

[Booklover]

There is something that everyone needs to realise here i.e. convincing oneself that Islam is wrong does not prove that Christianity is correct… or vice versa.

Yes, or vice versa!

The challenge that the Qur’an poses is to either find errors in the Qur’an or to produce a chapter like it.

According to you the challenge cannot be met, so why bother with it.

Does the Bible offer this same challenge?

The Bible does not waste time with absurd things as that so-called challenge.

And so, I really do not see what good this challenge of reading another book than either the Bible or the Qur’an is going to do anyone.

Oh really? Why not? Are you afraid that if you read that book, you may realize that Islam is a lie, that the Quran is a hoax, Allah a figment of Muhammad’s imagination, that Jesus Christ is really the Son of God and that the christians were right all along?

This has actually reminded me of the reason why I opened this thread i.e. not to engage in debate just for the sake of debating but to sincerely seek the answer to the question of whether the Qur’an is truly the Word of the Creator.

Oh, you’ve posted a lot of stuff to obfuscate the issue, but have never provided any proof!

I

f the Qur’an is indeed the Word of God, then those who have rejected it in this world will most definitely have to explain to their Creator on the Day of Judgment why they have chosen to do so.

And if the Quran is not the Word of God, then those who accept it will have to explain to God why they believed in such a tedious and hate filled book!

For those who are refusing to accept the truth of the Qur’an, the question that you should be asking yourself is:

What truth? Where’s the proof?

Does the scripture that you believe in pass the same test of truthfulness that you obviously feel the Qur’an does not?

Your so-called test is absurd!

Vickie

 

[George_Waters]

If the Qur’an is indeed the Word of God, then those who have rejected it in this world will most definitely have to explain to their Creator on the Day of Judgment why they have chosen to do so.

And are you prepared to explain to God on the Day of Judgement WHY you accepted the Quran if it is NOT the word of God?

 

[Verisimilitude]

There is something that everyone needs to realise here i.e. convincing oneself that Islam is wrong does not prove that Christianity is correct… or vice versa.

That is not the point of the challange specifically- to prove one or the other correct. Some may conclude both are wrong. But between the two faiths, only one can be correct.

The challenge that the Qur’an poses is to either find errors in the Qur’an or to produce a chapter like it.

The Koran has been described here with numerous errors that you dismiss due to improper translations or stubborness on my part, since I speak for myself only.

Does the Bible offer this same challenge?

Yes, it does as has been told to you. The arbiter of it is ones heart. Does it have a verse that says “challange this text” lik ethe Koran to meet your test? But there is something better to be honest. It’s a very old question to be precise- asked and answered:

John 8:12-20
12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.” 13 So the Pharisees said to Him, “You are testifying about Yourself; Your testimony is not true.” 14 Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I testify about Myself, My testimony is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from or where I am going. 15 "You judge according to the flesh; I am not judging anyone. 16 "But even if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone {in it,} but I and the Father who sent Me. 17 "Even in your law it has been written that the testimony of two men is true. 18 “I am He who testifies about Myself, and the Father who sent Me testifies about Me.” 19 So they were saying to Him, “Where is Your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also.” 20 These words He spoke in the treasury, as He taught in the temple; and no one seized Him, because His hour had not yet come.

And so, I really do not see what good this challenge of reading another book than either the Bible or the Qur’an is going to do anyone.

It sheds light on the subject. You are not afraid of such light are you? I have read the Qur’an, and on it’s own words I have rejected it. Other books may provide insight as to why or why not it should be acepted. Hence this challange I offer you.

This has actually reminded me of the reason why I opened this thread i.e. not to engage in debate just for the sake of debating but to sincerely seek the answer to the question of whether the Qur’an is truly the Word of the Creator.

It is not, clearly. Many here have explained in exhaustive detail why.

If the Qur’an is indeed the Word of God, then those who have rejected it in this world will most definitely have to explain to their Creator on the Day of Judgment why they have chosen to do so.

In all honesty that is one question you have posed I do not fear answering to God. If the Quran is indeed the word of God, what do you fear reading the book I offer?

For those who are refusing to accept the truth of the Qur’an, the question that you should be asking yourself is:

Does the scripture that you believe in pass the same test of truthfulness that you obviously feel the Qur’an does not?

Yes, of course it does. Believe me, I have tried to find reasons not to believe in it, or in God. I have read about many differnt faiths. It would be an easier life in some ways if it could be proved false beyond just it’s comparrison to the Koran.

The offer still stands. Even if you do not want to debate it here, I’d like you to read the book. I still offer to send you a copy for free.

I’m still willing to read any book you choose to prove your case if you accept to read the one I offer, since the Koran, in it’s many translations according to you cannot be fully trusted.

Would it be well for you in Allah’s eyes if you could lead me to straight path, or has he led me astry with no helper? I am willing to risk my current faith if it leads to Truth. I want to know God in all His ways, truly.

In addition to the offer, I’d like to ask you another question: Would you change or give up your faith if you found it to be false? As an example- assume a hypothetical proof: God is proven to exist, but in this hypothetical it is proven that there are hundreds of gods that vie among themselves for dominion, and none is greater than the other,but that each plays a specific role.

I do not believe this, nor do you I am sure, but if that were to be proven in that sense I would drop my current belief in a NY minute. The reason I ask such an absurd question is if you are actually willing to apply your own test to yourself.

Accept my offer, please. Read that book.

 

[jack_hawkins]

hamba2han;2119096:

If the Qur’an is indeed the Word of God, then those who have rejected it in this world will most definitely have to explain to their Creator on the Day of Judgment why they have chosen

to do so.

And are you prepared to explain to God on the Day of Judgement WHY you accepted the Quran if it is NOT the word of God?

hamba2han, all of us here (well, most of us anyway) are seeking God and trying to live our lives here on earth the way He wants us to. He has given us reason and faith and for the vast majority of humanity our reason and our faith tell us to reject Islam. I will have to answer to God, and I believe even if I am wrong, but am not in error due to obstinance on my part, God will forgive my limatations and accept my repentence and save me from hell just as he will to you. Unfortunately Muslims will NOT accept that and will take God’s mantle of judgement upon themselves to kill us in the name of God.

Our reason and our faith in God tell us to reject your arguements and Islam and to seek Him.

there’s two main things that strike me about hamba2han’s comment

1. it’s an appeal to force, and so a logical fallacy
2. because it’s an appeal to force, it reveals how hamba2han sees allah, as someone to be feared and obeyed but not to be loved
   fortunately we can be reconciled to a God of love instead of having to fear judgment

 

[jack_hawkins]

This has actually reminded me of the reason why I opened this thread i.e. not to engage in debate just for the sake of debating but to sincerely seek the answer to the question of whether the Qur’an is truly the Word of the Creator

hamba2han, I cannot let that comment pass. it is quite obvious from your responses that you are not sincerely seeking an answer at all. that is simply a bare-faced lie, taqqiya if you will. you ignore all the evidence that says that the Koran cannot be the Word of the Creator

There is something that everyone needs to realise here i.e. convincing oneself that Islam is wrong does not prove that Christianity is correct… or vice versa

I don’t see anyone making the former mistake here at all

 

[Morning_Star15]

There is something that everyone needs to realise here i.e. convincing oneself that Islam is wrong does not prove that Christianity is correct… or vice versa.

Trying to prove that Islam is correct by proving that Christianity is false would be an improvement for you over trying to prove that Islam is correct because the Qu’ran is poetic.

 

[hamba2han]

Question for all:

Suppose that you receive a memo at your workplace and you then decide to ignore the instructions on it despite being constantly reminded of the memo because you have some doubts that the memo came from the boss but in the end, you discover that it was indeed from him, then don’t you think that a prudent boss will demand an explanation from you as to why you did not take the initiative to properly check the validity of the memo before deciding to ignore the very important message that was written on it?

In the event that you are unable to provide a satisfactory answer to your boss, then does this not mean that you can kiss your end-of-year Christmas bonus goodbye and probably also any immediate prospects that you might have of promotion to a higher position?

The moral here is that for our own wellbeing, we really, really, REALLY need to concern ourselves with ascertaining the validity of any memo that we receive from the boss instead of allowing ourselves to be influenced by the urgings of our co-workers… or any demons that might be lurking at the workplace, to ignore the memo.

 

[Montalban]

Question for all:

Suppose that you receive a memo at your workplace and you then decide to ignore the instructions on it despite being constantly reminded of the memo because you have some doubts that the memo came from the boss but in the end, you discover that it was indeed from him, then don’t you think that a prudent boss will demand an explanation from you as to why you did not take the initiative to properly check the validity of the memo before deciding to ignore the very important message that was written on it?

In the event that you are unable to provide a satisfactory answer to your boss, then does this not mean that you can kiss your end-of-year Christmas bonus goodbye and probably also any immediate prospects that you might have of promotion to a higher position?

The moral here is that for our own wellbeing, we really, really, REALLY need to concern ourselves with ascertaining the validity of any memo that we receive from the boss instead of allowing ourselves to be influenced by the urgings of our co-workers… or any demons that might be lurking at the workplace, to ignore the memo.

However in this office your boss thinks that he’s a god, based on the proof of his own memo which he wrote saying that he is.

 

[Montalban]

hamba2han;2119096:

There is something that everyone needs to realise here i.e. convincing oneself that Islam is wrong does not prove that Christianity is correct… or vice versa.

Trying to prove that Islam is correct by proving that Christianity is false would be an improvement for you over trying to prove that Islam is correct because the Qu’ran is poetic.

And, disproving Christianity wouldn’t prove Islam, because playing devil’s advocate, Hinduism could be correct

 

[hamba2han]

For anyone who might still be unclear as to what I am alluding to here, perhaps this might help:

Think of the Qur’an as the ultimate ‘memo’ just as you would think of God as the ultimate ‘boss’.

You should also think of Paradise as the ultimate ‘promotion’… and Hell as the ultimate ‘demotion’.

 

[George_Waters]

For anyone who might still be unclear as to what I am alluding to here, perhaps this might help:

Think of the Qur’an as the ultimate ‘memo’ just as you would think of God as the ultimate ‘boss’.

You should also think of Paradise as the ultimate ‘promotion’… and Hell as the ultimate ‘demotion’.

For you as this is obviously still unclear to you:

Think of the Bible is the ultimate ‘memo’ just as you would think of God as the ultimate ‘boss’

We do not have any issue what so ever with recognizing God and His judgement.

What we have an issue with is Islam’s insistance that it, and only it, is correct and that the Quran is any more than a poorly plagiarized knock off to support an Arabian warlord influenced more likely by Satan than an Angel of God.

NOTHING you have said here changes any of that. In fact this attitude by Muslim apologist has only strengthened my faith in the One True God and has changed my perception of Islam as a legitimate religion to little more than a colossal sham.

 

[jack_hawkins]

Question for all:

Suppose that you receive a memo at your workplace and you then decide to ignore the instructions on it despite being constantly reminded of the memo because you have some doubts that the memo came from the boss but in the end, you discover that it was indeed from him, then don’t you think that a prudent boss will demand an explanation from you as to why you did not take the initiative to properly check the validity of the memo before deciding to ignore the very important message that was written on it?

In the event that you are unable to provide a satisfactory answer to your boss, then does this not mean that you can kiss your end-of-year Christmas bonus goodbye and probably also any immediate prospects that you might have of promotion to a higher position?

The moral here is that for our own wellbeing, we really, really, REALLY need to concern ourselves with ascertaining the validity of any memo that we receive from the boss instead of allowing ourselves to be influenced by the urgings of our co-workers… or any demons that might be lurking at the workplace, to ignore the memo.

what a silly analogy, that can easily be blown apart
if someone pointed out a memo to me, that is supposedly from my boss that contradicts everything that my boss have ever said and is not in his handwriting, and indeed tells me to do something which I know to be wrong, do I obey that memo? no I suspect someone who wants to get me into trouble has written it and ignore it if I’m wise
according to you, if there was a memo in the office saying “Mohammed is in charge - the Boss” written in Mohammed’s handwriting, we should take that memo as being authentic. which shows your position to be utterly foolish

the Koran runs contrary to what we know about God from the Bible - why would we believe it is from God? 'cos Mohammed says so? the Bible warns us very specifically against this

again you are appealing to force, trying to make people fear instead of truly persuading them you are right
you have done extremely poorly in this thread but strangely can’t see it

 

[hamba2han]

Think of the Bible is the ultimate ‘memo’ just as you would think of God as the ultimate ‘boss’

The Creator just does not make mistakes and the Bible, although undoubtedly containing much profound truths, nevertheless has so many contradictions and discrepancies within it that I cannot stake my wellbeing in the Hereafter on the truth of it’s contents.

For all who believe in the Day of Judgment when we will face our Creator, the stakes in the Hereafter are just too high for anyone of us to take this matter with anything less than the extreme seriousness that it deserves and this is why it is so very important that we ascertain as best as we possibly can the truth of the scriptures or ‘memos’ that we receive from the ‘ultimate boss’ there is.

To put it another way, the Bible simply fails this most stringent test of truthfulness that the Qur’an has set for itself.

 

[jack_hawkins]

The Creator just does not make mistakes and the Bible, although undoubtedly containing much profound truths, nevertheless has so many contradictions and discrepancies within it that I cannot stake my wellbeing in the Hereafter on the truth of it’s contents.

For all who believe in the Day of Judgment when we will face our Creator, the stakes in the Hereafter are just too high for anyone of us to take this matter with anything less than the extreme seriousness that it deserves and this is why it is so very important that we ascertain as best as we possibly can the truth of the scriptures or ‘memos’ that we receive from the ‘ultimate boss’ there is.

To put it another way, the Bible simply fails this most stringent test of truthfulness that the Qur’an has set for itself.

The Bible is a far superior work of literature to the Koran, and contains a far greater insight into the human condition. I find that Muslims think the Bible is full of mistakes only because of what they have been taught.
On the other hand, we have shown that the Koran has mistakes. You have not proven your case at all. Now you try and change the debate. Could you try and prove one point before going onto another? You simply (or otherwise) have not proven that the Koran passes any meaningful test, only that of circular argument.

 

[jack_hawkins]

hamba2han - how many virgins will I get if I become a jihadi and blow up a Tube train?
and I’m not settling for raisins either!

 

[Verisimilitude]

Question for all:

I personally think you have asked enough questions without providing any answers yourself. For someone who says they are sincere in seeking any truth, you are remarkably unwilling to evaluate anything beyond what you have already made up your mind about.

At first I thought it was because you were just a contrarian in order to try and confuse any that might be confused for some little jolly. That would have been an evil.

Then I thought for a brief moment you might actually be sincere, but such stubborness in your many posts that quickly dismiss clear Quarinc problems only shows a more disingenious nature of your thread. That might be willfull ignorance.

But then it hit me and as someone else pointed out, I too have reached a final conclusion. You fear the master god Allah more than you want to know the truth about the loving Father. That is sad.

Your fear is blinding you. You think that fear is keeping you on the straight path and is good for you. Much like an abused child clings to the abuser because they have a greater fear of the unknown away from what they know and they have been taught the abuse is justified. I think that is most sad.

I personally am asking you to come where there is no fear. At least take the time and effort to explore it. The prohibitions and the mantras within the Qur’an that do not allow such exploration are reason enough to see it is not quite right. Your own little test is the very proof you need. You think it is disobeying to even look outside and would incurr eternal punishment if you admitted it to your heart. But you want to, I think that is clear. It is why you are here isn’t it? But you can only do so under the veil of justifing the faith you now hold. I blame the mouthpiece of Allah, not you.

I have no desire to belittle you, or to point out your problematic dogma. IF you actually are a sincere person I would say your real purpose here is more to see if our faith holds up where yours does not though you say just the opposite. I think it has shown that, and in yor heart you might finally admit it someday too.

I hope so. For on that day you should feel no shame, but you might. But here in the grace of God (I know you will have an issue with the diefication of Jesus for a while- but they are the same) all shame and fear will be erased. Don’t be fooled that it is easy, it isn’t. The hard thing to accpet is that it just IS. You would see some real rejoicing on this forum alone if you “see the light” as it were. It is what we all really hope to be honest. (I’m sure I can imagine what Koranic passage that comes to mind at that statment)

You might be smart in many ways but I can’t say if you are a sincere person, or an honest person since I don’t think you have been quite free to be yourself due to your irrational fear of such a vengefull, scary, but ultimately false perception of God. I can only hope that you want to be both, for if you are sincere I have faith you will not remain in the dark.

 

[Morning_Star15]

The Creator just does not make mistakes and the Bible, although undoubtedly containing much profound truths, nevertheless has so many contradictions and discrepancies within it that I cannot stake my wellbeing in the Hereafter on the truth of it’s contents.

**And the Qu’ran has so many contradictions with the God that I know that I cannot stake my wellbeing the Hereafter on the truth of its contents. **

For all who believe in the Day of Judgment when we will face our Creator, the stakes in the Hereafter are just too high for anyone of us to take this matter with anything less than the extreme seriousness that it deserves and this is why it is so very important that we ascertain as best as we possibly can the truth of the scriptures or ‘memos’ that we receive from the ‘ultimate boss’ there is.

To put it another way, the Bible simply fails this most stringent test of truthfulness that the Qur’an has set for itself.

If the Qu’ran sets a test for itself that is so meaningless that it only convinces someone who antecedently believes the Qu’ran to be correct, then what does that test really prove?

 

[Mannyfit75]

A Truth Religion of God teaches no different doctrines. It is founded in the Catholic Church only.

 

[George_Waters]

The Creator just does not make mistakes and the Bible, although undoubtedly containing much profound truths, nevertheless has so many contradictions and discrepancies within it that I cannot stake my wellbeing in the Hereafter on the truth of it’s contents.

For all who believe in the Day of Judgment when we will face our Creator, the stakes in the Hereafter are just too high for anyone of us to take this matter with anything less than the extreme seriousness that it deserves and this is why it is so very important that we ascertain as best as we possibly can the truth of the scriptures or ‘memos’ that we receive from the ‘ultimate boss’ there is.

To put it another way, the Bible simply fails this most stringent test of truthfulness that the Qur’an has set for itself.

hamba2han,

Don’t you think we are saying the EXACT same thing as you are, but from the opposite side? You have put your faith in Allah as you know him from the Quran while we have put our faith in God as we know Him from the Bible, His Church and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. We are willing to allow you your faith even if we disagree with you, but your faith insists we must submit or die.

If you are sincerely interested in our souls my thanks. We are interested in yours as well.

We can not have an honest discussion to discern the truth if you refuse to even accept the fact that the Quran may not be the word of God. If you are going to refuse to entertain the notion there is no point of discussing any differences. Yes, the same can be said about Christians.

For the record I studied Islam and prayed about it and ultimately rejected Islam and years later was guided home to the Catholic Church. As Verismilitude’s signature says facts will not disprove God. I do not feat facts or the truth hamba2han.

When you are ready to openly and honestly discuss all possibilities let us know.

May God bless us all and lead us to Him.

 

[Keikiolu]

There is something that everyone needs to realise here i.e. convincing oneself that Islam is wrong does not prove that Christianity is correct… or vice versa.

I believe what I believe, and you believe what you believe.

The REASON that islam is “wrong” is because it is contradicted by what I believe. Your reasons for thinking Christianity is wrong is because it is contradicted by what you believe.

We can agree with that, unless you can’t, in which case you have no idea what “belief” means.

If we can’t agree what “belief” means, then the only thing left to talk about is how to be civil to each other within society.

The challenge that the Qur’an poses is to either find errors in the Qur’an or to produce a chapter like it.

Does the Bible offer this same challenge?

No,… because it doesn’t have the self conscious defensiveness of the people of the koran to be anything than what it is.

Islam is all about “challenge”. The aggresive militant defensiveness of the warrior slave who gets his dinner only if he kills his opponent.

And so, I really do not see what good this challenge of reading another book than either the Bible or the Qur’an is going to do anyone.

This has actually reminded me of the reason why I opened this thread i.e. not to engage in debate just for the sake of debating but to sincerely seek the answer to the question of whether the Qur’an is truly the Word of the Creator.

The koran is not the word of the Creator. Period.

Though it is inspired by non-mortal beings, most probably.

If the Qur’an is indeed the Word of God, then those who have rejected it in this world will most definitely have to explain to their Creator on the Day of Judgment why they have chosen to do so.

Absolutely correct…!

For those who are refusing to accept the truth of the Qur’an, the question that you should be asking yourself is:

Does the scripture that you believe in pass the same test of truthfulness that you obviously feel the Qur’an does not?

But I DO believe that the koran passes the test that it sets itself…!! (…as far as I can tell)

That test is not applicable to the Bible, nor the full deposit of faith, so it makes no difference whether it passes that test or not.

Your task is to explain why that test SHOULD be applied to the Bible. Please answer that question.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.