How was Adam able to be "tempted"?

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mikeledes said:
But it assures that Adam is personally responsible for his sin. The alternative would be that God caused him to sin. That’s an unacceptable alternative.

God Bless,
Michael
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No, this is not true.

If, as we see described in Romans, God withdraws His grace from a sinner and turns him over to his own desires, that person still chooses what they want. They are responsible for their sin, not God.

God did not cause them to sin.

Also, if someone believes in original sin, I’m not sure how they can maintain a belief in free will.
 
Calvinator said:
No, this is not true.

If, as we see described in Romans, God withdraws His grace from a sinner and turns him over to his own desires, that person still chooses what they want. They are responsible for their sin, not God.

God did not cause them to sin.

Also, if someone believes in original sin, I’m not sure how they can maintain a belief in free will.
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Pesky logic strikes again:
  1. Man can do nothing but sin without the grace of God (total depravity according to Calvin)
  2. God withdraws His grace from Adam.
  3. Adam cannot do anything but sin.
Ergo, God caused Adam to sin by withdrawing his grace.

If I give you a kidney that you may live, and I withdraw my kidney, will you not die? Have I not caused you to die?

Original sin is not hard to understand.
  1. Adam and Eve lived in Paradise.
  2. Adam and Eve sinned.
  3. As a result of their sin, they were expelled from Paradise.
  4. Their descendants were therefore not born in Paradise.
That’s a geographic analogy.

Here’s one from grace:
  1. Adam and Eve were blessed with God’s grace.
  2. Adam and Eve were blessed with free will.
  3. Adam and Eve chose to use their free will to sin.
  4. God withdrew His grace.
  5. Adam and Eve’s descendants were born without God’s grace, their rightful inheritance.
  6. To be born without God’s grace is called Original Sin.
 
Calvinator said:
No, this is not true.

If, as we see described in Romans, God withdraws His grace from a sinner and turns him over to his own desires, that person still chooses what they want. They are responsible for their sin, not God.

God did not cause them to sin.

Also, if someone believes in original sin, I’m not sure how they can maintain a belief in free will.
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You MISS a serious factor here…Adam was NOT yet a sinner nor was he subject to original sin, thus your appeals to Romans are meaningless. So when you say God removed His grace from Adam you most certainly are saying He was behind the fall, as even Calvin himself said.
 
Teflon93 said:
Pesky logic strikes again:
  1. Man can do nothing but sin without the grace of God (total depravity according to Calvin)
  2. God withdraws His grace from Adam.
  3. Adam cannot do anything but sin.
Ergo, God caused Adam to sin by withdrawing his grace.
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Am I the only one who sees this as unbelievably perverse?
 
Calvinator said:
No, this is not true.

If, as we see described in Romans, God withdraws His grace from a sinner and turns him over to his own desires, that person still chooses what they want. They are responsible for their sin, not God.

God did not cause them to sin.

Also, if someone believes in original sin, I’m not sure how they can maintain a belief in free will.
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The BIGGEST problem with this is that it is not explained in Genesis as you say. God created Adam and Eve in HIs own image and likeness. He never tells that He removed His grace from Adam ONLY until after the Fall, not before it.
 
NotWorthy said:
The BIGGEST problem with this is that it is not explained in Genesis as you say. God created Adam and Eve in HIs own image and likeness. He never tells that He removed His grace from Adam ONLY until after the Fall, not before it.
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As a sidenote, isn’t it interesting that Calvinists affirm the inerrancy of scripture, and yet believe that human beings created in the image and likeness of God are totally depraved? Does that mean total depravity is a characteristic of God? :confused:
 
Teflon93 said:
Pesky logic strikes again:
  1. Man can do nothing but sin without the grace of God (total depravity according to Calvin)
  2. God withdraws His grace from Adam.
  3. Adam cannot do anything but sin.
Ergo, God caused Adam to sin by withdrawing his grace.

If I give you a kidney that you may live, and I withdraw my kidney, will you not die? Have I not caused you to die?

Original sin is not hard to understand.
  1. Adam and Eve lived in Paradise.
  2. Adam and Eve sinned.
  3. As a result of their sin, they were expelled from Paradise.
  4. Their descendants were therefore not born in Paradise.
That’s a geographic analogy.

Here’s one from grace:
  1. Adam and Eve were blessed with God’s grace.
  2. Adam and Eve were blessed with free will.
  3. Adam and Eve chose to use their free will to sin.
  4. God withdrew His grace.
  5. Adam and Eve’s descendants were born without God’s grace, their rightful inheritance.
  6. To be born without God’s grace is called Original Sin.
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Let’s get away from Adam and or Eve for a moment.

Do you think God widthdraws his grace from at least “some” people as described in Romans?

If you answer yes, does this mean God caused them to sin?

If you answer no, how do you deal with the scripture?
 
djrakowski said:
As a sidenote, isn’t it interesting that Calvinists affirm the inerrancy of scripture, and yet believe that human beings created in the image and likeness of God are totally depraved? Does that mean total depravity is a characteristic of God? :confused:
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What does “totally depraved” mean?
 
Here is what the Westminster Confession of Faith has to say about “Free Will”. I am curious to know which points you agree/disagree with.

Of Free Will.
I. God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor by any absolute necessity of nature determined to good or evil.

II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which is good and well-pleasing to God; but yet mutably, so that he might fall from it.

III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

IV. When God converts a sinner and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin, and, by his grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so as that, by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.

V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutable free to good alone, in the state of glory only.
 
Calvinator said:
III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.
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That depends on what in the world this means.

You got another version with less twisted english?

Does this say that “man cannot achieve salvation except by the grace of God” or “man cannot do anything good” or both?

Chuck
 
Calvinator said:
Isn’t this also very similar to what your church teaches?
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No because Catholics believe that through grace ANY and EVERY good work done by Christian and non Christian is still a GOOD work in God’s eyes. Calvinists believe NOTHING the non-Christian does is good in God’s eyes.

Taking this further, Calvinists dont believe in good and evil because it is all relative. Nothing the non-Christian can do is good in the truest sense, and nothing the Christian can do is bad in the truest sense.
 
clmowry said:
That depends on what in the world this means.

You got another version with lest twisted english?

Does this say that “man cannot achieve salvation except by the grace of God” or “man cannot do anything good” or both?

Chuck
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QUESTION
Does this say that “man cannot achieve salvation except by the grace of God”?
ANSWER
Yes

QUESTION
Does this say that “man cannot do anything good”?
ANSWER
Not exactly. It doesn’t say that man can’t do “nice” things such as feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, etc. But, it does say that unaided by the grace of God, man can not do any, for lack of a better term, supernatural good. This is essentially what the phrase “total depravity” means.
 
Catholic_Dude said:
No because Catholics believe that through grace ANY and EVERY good work done by Christian and non Christian is still a GOOD work in God’s eyes. Calvinists believe NOTHING the non-Christian does is good in God’s eyes.
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Notice that the question I asked hinges upon the condition “without the grace of God”.

What say you now?
 
Calvinator said:
QUESTION
Does this say that “man cannot do anything good”?
ANSWER
** Not exactly. It doesn’t say that man can’t do “nice” things** such as feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, etc. But, it does say that unaided by the grace of God, man can not do any, for lack of a better term, supernatural good. This is essentially what the phrase “total depravity” means.
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Notice how “nice” is in quotes, that is because you believe there is no such thing as OBJECTIVE good and evil. Catholics believe in OBJECTIVE good and evil, feeding the hungry is a GOOD WORK in God’s EYES—REGARDLESS of who does it, be it Christian or non-Christian.
 
Catholic_Dude said:
Notice how “nice” is in quotes, that is because you believe there is no such thing as OBJECTIVE good and evil. Catholics believe in OBJECTIVE good and evil, feeding the hungry is a GOOD WORK in God’s EYES—REGARDLESS of who does it, be it Christian or non-Christian.
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I’m not sure where you got the idea that Reformed Christians don’t believe in OBJECTIVE good and evil.

So I ask again, unaided by the grace of God, can a sinner (assume one is in a state of mortal sin) do a good (as judged on a supernatural level) work?

BTW, I’m not trying to trap you or anything…just trying to understand exactly what it is you are saying.
 
Calvinator said:
I’m not sure where you got the idea that Reformed Christians don’t believe in OBJECTIVE good and evil.

So I ask again, unaided by the grace of God, can a sinner (assume one is in a state of mortal sin) do a good (as judged on a supernatural level) work?
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I never said unaided nor implied anything good “unaided by grace”, the Catholic Church in fact explicitly condemns such a notion. The case should be closed in regards to that issue.
 
Catholic_Dude said:
I never said unaided nor implied anything good “unaided by grace”, the Catholic Church in fact explicitly condemns such a notion. The case should be closed in regards to that issue.
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Okay, but yet you disagree with the statement “1. Man can do nothing but sin **without the grace of God **(total depravity according to Calvin)”.

So what can a man do that doesn’t have God’s grace?
 
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