How will Pope Francis impact traditionalists?

[Cat]

I agree that it doesn’t seem that it will be of major focus in his pontificate.

To watch him celebrate the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass (and I watched his celebration of it at St Anne’s this morning) he doesnt lack in reverent worship. It was very reverent and beautiful, even in it’s simplicity.

Perhaps Pope Francis will impact traditionalists by helping them to see and appreciate the beauties of a simpler, unelaborate Mass.

Sometimes I get the feeling, at least on CAF, that some traditionalist Catholics (and Protestants, too!) equate “simplicity” with “irreverence” or perhaps more accurately, “hollowness.”

It’s as if they require stained glass, sculptures, a pipe organ, chant and polyphony (therefore, a more practiced choir or cantors), and Latin in order to “feel” worshipful.

I appreciate these things, certainly, because they are beautiful, but I don’t feel the need for them, and when they are not there, I don’t feel a lacking in the Mass. I can see the beauty in a piano accompaniment, in a modern hymn composed in the last hundred years, in a plain brick wall in the nave, in a plainly-designed Stations of the Cross, or in my own dear heart language (which is English).

Reverence, to me, happens because I wish to honor God, Who is Present in the Mass whether it is Ordinary or Extraordinary Form.

Perhaps a “simple” Pope will help all of us to appreciate God in the simple things.

 

[TEPO]

Perhaps Pope Francis will impact traditionalists by helping them to see and appreciate the beauties of a simpler, unelaborate Mass.

Sometimes I get the feeling, at least on CAF, that some traditionalist Catholics (and Protestants, too!) equate “simplicity” with “irreverence” or perhaps more accurately, “hollowness.”

It’s as if they require stained glass, sculptures, a pipe organ, chant and polyphony (therefore, a more practiced choir or cantors), and Latin in order to “feel” worshipful.

I appreciate these things, certainly, because they are beautiful, but I don’t feel the need for them, and when they are not there, I don’t feel a lacking in the Mass. I can see the beauty in a piano accompaniment, in a modern hymn composed in the last hundred years, in a plain brick wall in the nave, in a plainly-designed Stations of the Cross, or in my own dear heart language (which is English).

Reverence, to me, happens because I wish to honor God, Who is Present in the Mass whether it is Ordinary or Extraordinary Form.

Perhaps a “simple” Pope will help all of us to appreciate God in the simple things.

Perhaps not everyone is meant to appreciate God in the exact same way. I don’t think everyone should be forced to attend only Latin Masses, in just the same way that not all Catholics should be forced to attend Charismatic Masses.

…after all, variety is the spice of life. . …and Catholics come in many forms.

 

[erlembald]

Hopefully by making them less traditionalist.

Do you truly think this intolerant and vindictive kind of speech is called for? Who has given you the right and authority to determine and direct the faithful’s spirituality? It sounds as if you wish to cleanse the Church of traditional believers…is that what you consider to be the spirit of Vatican 2?

 

[erlembald]

Most assuredly, they cannot exert force.

It has been said that the pope may bind as well as unbind. What would be the response if Pope Francis ‘unbound’ the EF making the OF the universal rite of the Church, uniting all of us in one liturgical rite? Has anyone noticed the disunity and division that the SP has caused? Catholics against Catholics, especially in this subforum and other traditional websites. If there was ever a need to bring peace and unity among our own Catholics, I see this as a concern. Would traditionalists rebel or submit?

When Paul VI set forth the “Novus Ordo” many years ago and our parishes began to instruct us gradually in implementing the changes, I would guess that 95% of Catholics gave filial submission to the direction the Holy Spirit was leading the Church in the Council. Their first priority above all else was to reform the liturgy. It has been a continual grievance to me that this division has created chaos, rather than unity. May the Lord give us His guidance in this regard.

Hasn’t the OF actually brought division, right from the beginning (SSPX)? And didn’t Pope Em. Benedict say in his Motu Proprio that the Church never has and never will outlaw the EF, since that is not her privilege? Bringing unity to the fold is fine and well, but you seem to favor an authoritarian, clericalistic approach to liturgy. What about the sensus fidelium? One can dismiss the spirituality of a large minority, no doubt, but that would result in the kind of unity one will also find in the cemetery!

 

[TEPO]

Hasn’t the OF actually brought division, right from the beginning (SSPX)? And didn’t Pope Em. Benedict say in his Motu Proprio that the Church never has and never will outlaw the EF, since that is not her privilege? Bringing unity to the fold is fine and well, but you seem to favor an authoritarian, clericalistic approach to liturgy. What about the sensus fidelium? One can dismiss the spirituality of a large minority, no doubt, but that would result in the kind of unity one will also find in the cemetery!

If pope Francis can encourage conversion to the faith, then we can expect a great deal of converts who are as diverse as Catholics within the Church to fill the gap in both liturgical forms.

Perhaps the framework laid out by Benedict will become the precursor for the works that Francis will complete -actually increasing the numbers of those who appreciate a more traditional Mass.

…as you can see, I have very high hopes!

 

[Sirach2]

Hasn’t the OF actually brought division, right from the beginning (SSPX)? And didn’t Pope Em. Benedict say in his Motu Proprio that the Church never has and never will outlaw the EF, since that is not her privilege?

Yes, division has always been present, despite Benedict’s sense that this would not be the case, in his accompanying letter re the M.P. And secondly, this was never said by Benedict, that the Church “never will outlaw the EF.” He said it has “never been abrogated.” A different meaning altogether.
Benedict XVI:

In the second place, the fear was expressed in discussions about the awaited Motu Proprio, that the possibility of a wider use of the 1962 Missal would lead to disarray or even divisions within parish communities. This fear also strikes me as quite unfounded.

erlembald:

Bringing unity to the fold is fine and well, but you "seem to favor" an authoritarian, clericalistic approach to liturgy. What about the sensus fidelium? One can dismiss the spirituality of a large minority, no doubt, but that would result in the kind of unity one will also find in the cemetery!

Not at all. My message was well-intended to note the lack of unity this M.P. has created, and express the concern that may possibly be in the mind of our new Pope to address for the good of all the Church and her faithful. I have seen rabid disrespectful attacks on him in the traditional websites that express fears of losing the EF. My question is rhetorical, meant as a reflection of one’s true allegiance to the guidance of the Pope. The thread title is mild here, but subtly expresses the same fears that exist on other websites. How would a trad answer this in his conscience with regard to submission? How did they answer it when Paul VI changed to the OF?

I am not bringing focus on one nor the other, simply addressing the thread title and the fears expressed in many circles.

 

[pnewton]

Perhaps a great saint will be coming our way to aid Pope Francis.

Or perhaps he is a great saint, or at least a saint to be, as any saint coming his way would need to have already passed away. I am thinking maybe… St. Francis (of Assisi)?

He is a man given to a passion for the pastoral. I think he will want that all receive the spirituality that brings each closer to God. This will be good for those who want traditional spiritualit, not so good for those that want to impose traditional spirituality on others. Perhaps some compromise could be worked out with the SSPX along these lines, allowing them to operate licitly, but quit pushing for others to take their path.

 

[erlembald]

Not at all. My message was well-intended to note the lack of unity this M.P. has created, and express the concern that may possibly be in the mind of our new Pope to address for the good of all the Church and her faithful. I have seen rabid disrespectful attacks on him in the traditional websites that express fears of losing the EF. My question is rhetorical, meant as a reflection of one’s true allegiance to the guidance of the Pope. The thread title is mild here, but subtly expresses the same fears that exist on other websites. How would a trad answer this in his conscience with regard to submission? How did they answer it when Paul VI changed to the OF?

I am not bringing focus on one nor the other, simply addressing the thread title and the fears expressed in many circles.

I think one must differentiate between traditionalists (Lefebvrists et al.) and traditional Catholics. For me personally your question is legit, but also hypothetical since Pope Em. Benedict made sure with his MP that the EF will always stay a part of Church life (have to re-read it though in detail). Even Paul VI didn’t prohibit the traditional Mass per se, but merely because “allowing” the trad. mass so shortly after SSPX had split would have seemed like the Church was backtracking on V2 and implicitly concurring to Lefebvre. Thus it was a disciplinarian act, not a liturgical one per se.
But in general, I for my part as a traditional Catholic would obey the Bishop of Rome, even if it broke my heart. I expect liberal, nay all Catholics to show the same obedience. If you don’t you’re a traditionalist (imho) resp. a modernist, i.e. a heretic.

 

[pnewton]

Benedict made sure with his MP that the EF will always stay a part of Church life (have to re-read it though in detail).

I agree with everything you said, but I am unsure about this. Perhaps you can elaborate after you re-read. I know that no pope can bind his successors in matters of discipline.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

Perhaps Pope Francis will impact traditionalists by helping them to see and appreciate the beauties of a simpler, unelaborate Mass.

I take it that you really haven’t attended many TLMs. Some are very elaborate (high Mass), some are very simple (low Mass). And, yes, many people who prefer the TLM like to attend the low Mass if they can.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

I agree with everything you said, but I am unsure about this. Perhaps you can elaborate after you re-read. I know that no pope can bind his successors in matters of discipline.

Perhaps this quote from Summorum Pontificum would help:

What earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considered harmful.

 

[Debora123]

Do you truly think this intolerant and vindictive kind of speech is called for? Who has given you the right and authority to determine and direct the faithful’s spirituality? It sounds as if you wish to cleanse the Church of traditional believers…is that what you consider to be the spirit of Vatican 2?

Oh my goodness, chill out!!!

Did you not see the “” and the “” right after the comment?? I was JOKING!

 

[mgsk]

As for how the Holy Father will impact traditionalists…we’ll have to change our Rosary intentions from praying for Pope BXVI to praying for Pope Francis. Our Masses will also have a new name at the “una cum.” I really don’t imagine much else changing.

Not to worry.
CAF posters are mature and are quite able to have an adult conversation.

I agree, most are. And I expect that the majority will able to address calm, logical objections to their arguments with something more substantive than broad generalizations and hysterics.

 

[Cat]

I take it that you really haven’t attended many TLMs. Some are very elaborate (high Mass), some are very simple (low Mass). And, yes, many people who prefer the TLM like to attend the low Mass if they can.

Yes, I know this. I realize that there are many devotees of the Latin Mass who prefer the low Masses.

But the impression that I have gotten from too many people on CAF is that some traditionalist Catholics feel that a simple OF Mass (plain church building, piano or guitar instead of pipe organ, vernacular, etc.) is somehow “lacking” or “not reverent,” or “doesn’t help them to feel worshipful.”

So perhaps Pope Francis will help them to see that a Mass is never “lacking” because Jesus is there. Or perhaps not. This is just my answer to the OP, and it’s only my opinion.

 

[Speramus]

Has anyone noticed the disunity and division that the SP has caused? Catholics against Catholics, especially in this subforum and other traditional websites. If there was ever a need to bring peace and unity among our own Catholics, I see this as a concern. Would traditionalists rebel or submit?

There would be slightly less disunity and division in this sad old world of ours if you didn’t go onto the Traditional Catholicism forum to express your opposition to Summorum Pontificum. God bless Pope Benedict forever for making the traditional Mass more available.

 

[Speramus]

Hopefully by making them less traditionalist.

And the smiley faces don’t make your comment any less rude.

 

[pnewton]

Perhaps this quote from Summorum Pontificum would help:

Perhaps that was it.

 

[mgsk]

Hopefully by making them less traditionalist.

This shows that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the traditionalist position. There’s nothing un-Catholic about the trad world, so the fact that you think we need to abandon any aspect of legitimate traditionalism demonstrates that you hold an untenable position.

Or if you think you have a case here, what aspects of tradition would you like to see thrown out?

 

[malphono]

There would be slightly less disunity and division in this sad old world of ours if you didn’t go onto the Traditional Catholicism forum to express your opposition to Summorum Pontificum. God bless Pope Benedict forever for making the traditional Mass more available.

Excellent post.

 

[JustaServant]

I agree, most are. And I expect that the majority will able to address calm, logical objections to their arguments with something more substantive than broad generalizations and hysterics.

What are you talking about?