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clskier
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So can you, Norbert, personally find homes for all the unwanted orphans in the world. If not, then by your logic we have a source for organ transplants. Need a new kidney, find an unwanted orphan and take thiers.
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siamesecat
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People say murder for life is murder and Bush says he does not believe in killing to save lives. Well thats a nice outlook, but what about war? What about the war casualties? All the innocent Americans and Iraqis being killed are being killed to save the lives of others right? To save Americans or other countries from being bombed by Sadaam or to save people from being killed by the dictatorship. What do you say to that?
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norbert
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No, that’s a bad analogy. Unwanted frozen embryos are destined for the garbage can. Unwanted orphans are alive.
What’s so hard to understand about excess frozen embryos at IVF clinics? They are a readily available source of stem cells. No one wants them. They are going to be destroyed anyway. We could derive stem cell lines from them that could, potentially, do great things for humanity. They are going to be destroyed anyway. They are going to be destroyed anyway. They are going to be destroyed anyway.They are going to be destroyed anyway.They are going to be destroyed anyway.They are going to be destroyed anyway.
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norbert
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Momofone:
I’m not saying anything about you, Mom-o-phone. If you want to love frozen clumps of cells like you love your real child, that is fine with me.
Where did you get that?
I’m not saying anything about you, Mom-o-phone. If you want to love frozen clumps of cells like you love your real child, that is fine with me.
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norbert
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That’s a good point, Siamesecat. Unfortunately, the “Culture of Life” is a little obsessed with unborn people. Born people don’t count for much; they’re expendable.
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Mom_of_one
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The implication was there. And, who says you have to love one over the other? Why should you choose one over the other? Just because one is born?
I understand wanting to help your child. I understand the thinking that it is better than just dumping the frozen embryos down the drain. But the solution is not kill them for good purposes, which may not even help. The ends do not justify the means.
And it’s Mom of one. There is no “ph” in there. I gotta go see if I can fix that. You are not the first to do that.
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norbert
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Momofone:
I think people need to see what it’s like to be a 13 year-old diabetic sticking himself with insulin daily, or a 29 year-old quadriplegic from spinal cord injury, or a 50 year-old with Parkinson’s. Could you tell these people that the world is better off if we just dump the frozen embryos into the garbage than attempt to use cells from those embryos to cure their diseases? That doesn’t make any sense at all. There may be no cure with embryonic stem cells, but for many diseases they hold the only reasonable promise, and we certainly won’t know without research.
But there aren’t any “means” here, Momofone. Excess frozen embryos will be destroyed no matter what. The end of destroying them in the dumpster is nothing. The end of destroying them by deriving stem cell lines from them is, potentially, a cure for uncurable disease. If they are going to be destroyed anyway, why in the world can’t we see if something good can come out of that?
I think people need to see what it’s like to be a 13 year-old diabetic sticking himself with insulin daily, or a 29 year-old quadriplegic from spinal cord injury, or a 50 year-old with Parkinson’s. Could you tell these people that the world is better off if we just dump the frozen embryos into the garbage than attempt to use cells from those embryos to cure their diseases? That doesn’t make any sense at all. There may be no cure with embryonic stem cells, but for many diseases they hold the only reasonable promise, and we certainly won’t know without research.
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Lisa_N
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Obviously you do not agree with Catholic teachings. Doing evil in the attempt to do good is still evil. The frozen embryos are not necessarily going to be destroyed but in any case your sentiment would also suggest it’s fine to extract organs from death row inmates since ‘they are going to die anyway might as well get some good out of them now.’ Or why not give that terminal cancer patient a little push to the great beyond…they are just using resources that could be used for patients who will be healed.
Your sentiment might get better traction from the secular side if there WERE good results from embryonic stem cells. But there are some legitimate concerns from a medical basis as well as the reality that there aren’t any current uses of embryonic stem cells accepted as being effective. There are good results from adult stem cells as well as the umbilical cells. You spend a lot of time in the “what if” department. The reality is that IF this research were so promising there would be researchers all over the world using this technology. From what I hear the few projects that used embryonic cells ended up with tragic results, tumors, the wrong kind of cells developing. You seem to think it’s worth a Frankensteinish “all in the name of science” approach when the results are not there.
Then moving into the ethical and moral aspects, if an embryo is not human at what point does it become human? At what point can a parent say well I’ll kill these and let those live? Those are questions that people of good conscience are not ready to answer with certainty.
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Mom_of_one
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#1 Did you even read the rest of what I said? I understand the thinking. It doesn’t make it right.
#2 People here are not all in perfect health with perfect lives. So, we do know what it’s like. And we can say, despite our suffering, that it is wrong to use an unborn child for our betterment EVEN IF that child will be killed anyway. God has standards for all. Those standards are in place for us to follow despite how we feel or our condition in life. No one can kill someone to make themselves feel better. Period.
God will not be mocked. These are His creations, even if the method of conception was wrong, and destroying them by dumping them down the sink or by using them to help others is a sin against God. This was the same attitude that the Nazi’s had against the Jews. “Well, they’re gonna die anyway, so let’s experiment on them.”
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mlchance
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Quite right. The same is true with reference to cord cells. Here’s the truth: ASC and cord cells are superior to ESC.
ESC are currently being used to cure nothing. They’re not even approved for human clinical trials. ASC and cord cells, however, have been involved in real cures in humans.
– Mark L. Chance.
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juliegh23
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Sorry I haven’t read all the threads posted on this one, but is the option of stem cells from umbilical cords an option for therapy in this case? I have read that the umbilical cords, from babies that have been born can be donated and that these cords contain the same cells that are “harvested” from the “embryos” in embryonic stem cell research. Just a thought. Also I am not sure, but is the use of the stem cells from the cord o.k. with the church? Anyone, who knows please write. Thank you.
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mlchance
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The only form of stem cell research condemned by the Church is embyronic stem cell research.
– Mark L. Chance.
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SHEMP
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To those on this thread who argue that we should not do embryonic stem cell research becuase it doesn’t show promise or becuase autologous stem cells/umbilical cord blood has already shown promise, or any other argument that compares the success of these lines of research, be careful with your argument.
This is not an argument for the ethics and morality of this research, it is a utilitarian argument. It does not matter whether embryonic stem cells show promise or don’t show promise. I get sick when I hear supposedly smart Catholics argue that embryonic stem cells don’t show any promise so we should not do this research. So what? If this research does show promise then does this justify this research?
The argument against this research is that the embryo is a human being. He is developing just like I am developing. Any research on this person violates his dignity. It violates his dignity just like the syphilus experiments violated African American Persons dignity in the mid 1900’s. It violates the dignity of the person just like the German physician researchers violated the Jewish persons dignity in Nazi Germany. These doctors claimed that the concentration camp person was doomed to die. The research that they did acheived some good from a hopeless situation.
Have we become like German Physician researcher in Nazi Germany? We find it easier because the embryo cannot be seen by the naked eye. We find it easier because we no longer call the mother “with child”. The freezers with these surplace embryos are “with child”.
We need to give these children dignity. I call for allowing these children to be released from suspended animation in a freezer. Allow them to live so that they may die. Allow them to return home to their Creator! Give them dignity. Stop the selfishness! Stop the horror. Allow these children to return to our mother Mary’s comforting arms in heaven.
This is not an argument for the ethics and morality of this research, it is a utilitarian argument. It does not matter whether embryonic stem cells show promise or don’t show promise. I get sick when I hear supposedly smart Catholics argue that embryonic stem cells don’t show any promise so we should not do this research. So what? If this research does show promise then does this justify this research?
The argument against this research is that the embryo is a human being. He is developing just like I am developing. Any research on this person violates his dignity. It violates his dignity just like the syphilus experiments violated African American Persons dignity in the mid 1900’s. It violates the dignity of the person just like the German physician researchers violated the Jewish persons dignity in Nazi Germany. These doctors claimed that the concentration camp person was doomed to die. The research that they did acheived some good from a hopeless situation.
Have we become like German Physician researcher in Nazi Germany? We find it easier because the embryo cannot be seen by the naked eye. We find it easier because we no longer call the mother “with child”. The freezers with these surplace embryos are “with child”.
We need to give these children dignity. I call for allowing these children to be released from suspended animation in a freezer. Allow them to live so that they may die. Allow them to return home to their Creator! Give them dignity. Stop the selfishness! Stop the horror. Allow these children to return to our mother Mary’s comforting arms in heaven.
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Lisa4Catholics
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How dare you:tsktsk: You have no right to insult or put into question if she loves her child enough What she does have which you apparently lack is respect for human life from conception to natural death! HUMANS are NOT commodities to be used for a supposed good! Clump of cells!:tsktsk: Where have you been on planned parenthoods website!You owe her an apology:tsktsk: http://bestsmileys.com/angry1/4.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/angry1/6.gif I Bestsmileys.com hope you PM her an apology!
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Lisa4Catholics
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Norberthttp://bestsmileys.com/angry1/23.gifYou are batting a thousand arent you!!!http://bestsmileys.com/angry1/8.gifWhy do you have to belittle and insult?http://bestsmileys.com/angry2/6.gif...y2/11.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/angry2/4.gifA frozen clump of cells!!!http://bestsmileys.com/puking/1.gifBaaah!
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Lisa_N
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Shemp this argument is used against secularists. Of course there is an ethical reason not to consider this technology but that means little to people like norbert. Similar to the abortion argument, if you depend on religion you will be ignored at best, belittled at worst. No Catholics are arguing with other Catholics about whether the embryo is a human being. We are trying to convince norbert that the “clump of tissue” won’t do anyone any good so why put resources into unusable technology and fruitless research when there is an ethical and EFFECTIVE alternative?
IOW I wouldn’t use ESC if they were effective but when arguing with secularists, you have to use secular arguments to get through.
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David_Paul
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I give up. Only so many times can I stomach reading “frozen clump of cells” and “clump of cells”.
Toodles…
Toodles…
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HagiaSophia
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:clapping:
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HagiaSophia
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Quite right…during the Schiavo case I posted an article by a medical ethicist which showed that we are heading towards keeping humans in a state which will allow us to harvest their organs for the “potentitally” workable patients who need them.
After all, the sick, the mentally challenged, the elderly are useless to a utilitarian society just like embryos so why not use them…dear God, the cult of Moloch lives and is being gorged on the human life it needs to keep it going.
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