https://www.quora.com/What-do-Protestants-and-Catholics-think-of-Mormons/answer/James-Hough-1

[TOmNossor]

Thank you! I appreciate the answer.

Your welcome. I said this about 6 months ago to a Catholic poster:

I have a history on this board where I have called LDS problems, problems . LDS strengths, strengths. Catholic problems, problems. And Catholic strengths, strengths (all in last 6 months). I can admit that with the small minority of LDS voices AND my conviction that the CoJCoLDS is more likely to be God’s church on earth based on history, criticism and evidence than Catholicism; I spend more time responding to anti-Mormon Catholics with various responses; but I was just offering some pro-Catholic understanding to the missionaries assigned to our ward today.

It would seem that you cannot do this. If it is pro-Mormon you are against it. Anti-Mormon you are for it. If it is a Catholic problem, you will not admit it or ignore it. If it is a Catholic strength you will embrace it.

I do not believe a fair review of all the data results in everyone converting to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for objective evidentiary reasons alone (though some do). But I do think a charitable review of all the data would/should preclude the vitriol and claims of irrationality directed towards The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

Crocus:

This. This. This. Hugh Nibley’s Footnotes are a real eye opener as the strategies described have recently been experienced firsthand.

Sophistry is using rhetorical technicals void of reason to convince someone of their point of view. Here are a few recent examples.

St. Melito of Sardis’ work, “Peri ensomatou theou, on the corporeity of God, of which some Syriac fragments have been preserved. It is referred to by Origen (In Gen., i, 26) as showing Melito to have been an Anthropomorphite, the Syriac fragments, however, prove that the author held the opposite doctrine.”

I hope people actually follow the link and read what it says (or read the HTR document).

It discusses the controversy over Bishop Melito and Origin was not the only ANCIENT author who thought Melito believed divine embodiment (I think it was the 20th century before ANYONE questioned that Bishop Melito believed in divine embodiment).

Wow, a whole bunch of people thought Bishop Melito believed in an embodied God, it must be true.

Oh, wait, there is an ad populum flag on the play, 10 yards and lose of argument.

It doesn’t matter how many people think Bishop Melito believed in an embodied God or when they changed their mind about his beliefs. The fact is Bishop Melito’s writings say he did not believe God was embodied.

Or something closer to the Hugh Nibley’s Footnotes article; claiming something is there when it isn’t, with a little ‘begging the question’ thrown in.

You will find that Augustine (whose mother is a Catholic Saint) refused to become a Christian for many years largely because he could not believe in an embodied God and Catholics believed in an embodied God.

What we actually found was Augustine upset that he was lied to about the Christians, and surprised they didn’t actually believe that God was embodied.

Or us a word to suggest something that isn’t there or using some to represent the whole.

Augustine will tell us of two Christian communities that still embrace an embodied God.

still?

…

I have much to say about your post, but little time at the moment. Two quick things.
The Syrian fragment you celebrate is not necessarily from Bishop Melito. If it is, it could mean he CHANGED his view or that Origin and the other ancient author didn’t know what Melito wrote. If it is NOT from Melito, then your whole argument falls apart. You should acknowledge this rather than claim I am being dishonest.

Second, I meant “still embraced” not “still embrace”
I will edit my post shortly, but I was WRONG. Thank you for catching it.
Charity, TOm

 

[SunshineGrandma]

Are you now saying that the fourth century wasn’t during the great apostasy? The missionaries told me it was. (They had to contact their mission president because they weren’t sure when it started, but they said it started after the apostles died)

Who passed on the truth to Timothy, Patriarch of Alexandria? Who baptized him? What group of people was he Patriarch of? Were his followers apostates or did they have the truth? Did his followers pass on the truth to anyone else? Where is this group today? Did Timothy baptize anyone? Where are they? Did Timothy have a successor? A predecessor? Did he act alone? Did he have a congregation?

If Timothy alone holds the truth during the great apostasy, why aren’t you a member of his church?

Why was Joseph Smith needed if the truth was still being taught and never left the earth?

 

[SunshineGrandma]

Who made him a saint?

Who preserved his writings?

Apostates I’m sure. Why do believe in this writing but not others from this time period?

 

[Stephen168]

If it is, it could mean he CHANGED his view or that Origin and the other ancient author didn’t know what Melito wrote.

Identifying WHY someone is wrong, makes them right

Interesting rhetoric.

 

[SunshineGrandma]

Hi TOm - Thank you for realizing you offended me. I honestly believe that you and most Mormons have it so ingrained to call everyone, and I mean everyone, “anti” to a person that says anything they don’t like. They think it’s normal and acceptable. It’s not.

I am so very, very tired of being told how and what to think from people in your religion, I am rebelling. My posts will reflect my resistance at your attempt to control and, even manipulate, the true teachings of what Mormons have taught since the beginning.

I noticed the attempt at whitewashing the truth years ago which is why I began downloading MORMON (not-anti) teachings from LDS sources. I knew this day would come when the drum beat would get louder and louder, trying to drown out those who think the TRUE history and teachings of the LDS Church DO matter and should be told.

I also think Mormon men are so accustomed to “teaching” their wives and others from the position of “priest” (which is one of the many problems with the scouting and missionary programs), all humility has been lost. (Now the priesthood will begin at an even younger age- poor mothers!). I am so grateful to be away from the know-it-all’s in Utah, I thank God every day for allowing me to live around other sinners, not saints.

I will continue to attempt to bring the conversation back to the truth of Mormon teachings as taught by Joseph Smith and succeeding prophets. Others can decide if they think the teachings of the current LDS prophet override the teachings of past LDS prophets. They can decide for themselves if truth is unchanging or if it is an ever-changing concept.

Jesus established one church. Just one.
Why work to lead others away from it?

 

[lokisuperfan]

Jesus established one church. Just one.
Why work to lead others away from it?

The intent of the Latter-day Saints is not to lead others away from the teachings of Christ, in fact, it’s quite the opposite. No matter how pushy or annoying the LDS may be, keep in mind their intentions are not to be pushy and annoying, but to lead others to Christ, whether or not you might believe that what they’re leading you to is, in fact, the most accurate perception of Christ. And isn’t that what we all want? To help others live good lives so that they might be saved? I do not condone forcing things upon others, and I’m sorry you had to go through such a judgmental and forceful lifestyle for such a long period of time. I’m happy for you that you’ve been able to escape it, as I am personally trying to do the same with Catholicism. But I ask that you look not upon the sin, but on the faith of the church. If you’re going to make an argument against the LDS, don’t use the sins of their followers, rather, the actual teachings of the Church itself, which are not intended to lead others away from Ch. I ask that you keep an open mind and not let your grudge cloud your judgment. I am not suggesting that it is, but it’s something to consider when evaluating your feelings toward the Latter-day Saints.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

But I ask that you look not upon the sin, but on the faith of the church. If you’re going to make an argument against the LDS, don’t use the sins of their followers, rather, the actual teachings of the Church itself, which are not intended to lead others away from Ch. I ask that you keep an open mind and not let your grudge cloud your judgment. I am not suggesting that it is, but it’s something to consider when evaluating your feelings toward the Latter-day Saints.

One could say you’ve apparently failed to do the same with Catholicism.

 

[Horton]

And you who have never been a LDS could harbor a subconscious need to justify your refusal to join and fellowship with those you knew in Utah. My point is that pointing to a “subconscious” is a two edged sword.

One, I never mentioned a subconscious need, just a need. You rejected the Catholic Church, joined the LDS but yet come back to a Catholic forum to argue the lack of truth in the Catholic Church. I never refused to join the LDS, never even considered it. As I said, I was born and raised a Christian and had no intention of throwing away my chance at salvation. I didn’t consider the LDS for the very same reasons I never considered Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, or other non Christion religions. It had nothing to do with fellowship or “those I knew in Utah”. I wasn’t looking to fit in, I was that square peg that never would fit in all those Mormon round holes.

 

[AngelaMarie]

The intent of the Latter-day Saints is not to lead others away from the teachings of Christ, in fact, it’s quite the opposite. No matter how pushy or annoying the LDS may be, keep in mind their intentions are not to be pushy and annoying, but to lead others to Christ, whether or not you might believe that what they’re leading you to is, in fact, the most accurate perception of Christ. And isn’t that what we all want? To help others live good lives so that they might be saved? I do not condone forcing things upon others, and I’m sorry you had to go through such a judgmental and forceful lifestyle for such a long period of time. I’m happy for you that you’ve been able to escape it, as I am personally trying to do the same with Catholicism. But I ask that you look not upon the sin, but on the faith of the church. If you’re going to make an argument against the LDS, don’t use the sins of their followers, rather, the actual teachings of the Church itself, which are not intended to lead others away from Ch. I ask that you keep an open mind and not let your grudge cloud your judgment. I am not suggesting that it is, but it’s something to consider when evaluating your feelings toward the Latter-day Saints.

What an odd reply, in my view, since a person could substitute “Catholic” for “Latter Day Saint”.

I go back to JPII’s “Fidei et Ratio”. “Faith and Reason” when seeking truth.
Not feelings.
But then, that is at least how I approach discernment when it comes to truth.

 

[SunshineGrandma]

Leading anyone away from the Church Christ himself established is wrong.

 

[AngelaMarie]

Exactly. That was my thought as well. If one is going to use this kind of principle when evaluating Mormonism, why not use the same principle when evaluating Catholicism?

 

[SunshineGrandma]

My kids have always said nobody studies their way into Mormonism. They join because it’s a guaranteed social group.

My oldest son has predicted someday the LDS Church will become more along the lines of the Masons, which is where their temple ceremonies originated anyway. More of a social club with secrets.

 

[Stephen168]

How does the Fourth Century Discourse on Abbaton by Timothy, Patriarch of Alexandria work for you?

Interesting legend.
It also refers to the Virgin Mary as the Mother of God. A phase originally used in the Book of Mormon until Joseph Smith rejected the belief in the Trinity.

 

[lokisuperfan]

@AngelaMarie The people in my church are not the only reason why I no longer practice Catholicism. In addition, I do not agree with the teachings of the Church. When I was very young, (I was somewhere around 4 or 5) I got into an argument with my father about the Trinity, because I did not believe that they were the same divine being, as taught in Catholicism. To this day, I still don’t believe that, and this is only one of such things I disagree with in the Catholic faith and have disagreed with for as long as I can remember.

 

[ColorMomma]

TOm has a long history on this forum. He has engaged with many knowledgeable and faithful Catholics. At this point, I just scroll past his excessively convoluted and lengthy posts. Thank you for defending the faith and so glad you are here. God bless.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

And you’ve looked at all the trinitarian apologetics out there to stop having this problem?

 

[Horton]

Fortunately I only had to live there while going to school and I didn’t socialize much at all. I was a single mom with three small children who needed my BS. I finished my degree in three years and left Utah. I didn’t have to live there long to know I wasn’t going to stay.

I can’t say it was proselytization so much but the entire culture of Salt Lake City back then. Everyone assumed you were LDS and when they learned you weren’t they knew it was because you just didn’t “know” about it and they were there to help you. It seemed the answer of “yes I do know about it and still don’t want anything to do with it” wasn’t good enough, as though as a women I wasn’t smart enough to make up my own mind.

Had a run in with a LDS car salesman once. Went in to buy a new car, found one I liked, it had many of the extras I wanted, a little more than I wanted to spend but… So I sat down to start the paperwork and the salesman came over and asked if my husband was going to come in to approve the purchase. I asked him if I had mentioned a husband at all during our time that day. He looked puzzled and said he just assumed. I told him his assumption just cost him his commission that day. I tore up the paperwork and walked out.

I know some folks who are LDS who are the nicest, caring, giving people you can meet, however the most crooked people I know happen to be LDS.

 

[SunshineGrandma]

I think that has to be the single most fascinating aspect of Mormonism:
Joseph Smith contradicts the Book of Mormon

And everyone pretends not to notice.

 

[lokisuperfan]

My sixth grade catechist spent a 2 hour class period trying to convince me of the trinity and was unsuccessful, so I doubt you’ll have much more luck than her.