Hubby wants to visit his Protestant church tomorrow

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…There are expressions in the Catholic Church that have been around for ages that just don’t sound right. Sunday obligation and holy day obligation are on this list. Through the ages, some of the brightest minds were part of the Catholic Church. Could one of those minds or a current bright mind not come up with better wording? On this same tangential line, the terms apologist and apologetics sound like you’re defending the church with guilt. I was also ready to walk away from the Catholic church for good when I heard the term “Co-redemptrix”. Rather than walk away, I met with the leader of Adult Education at my church and he explained it. Further research confirmed what he said but I still think someone could find some better terminology.

When I miss church on Sunday, I do feel like I’ve sinned. Does god care? I think so because he wants me in that holy place giving my soul the nourishment it needs.
Remember also the part of the Mass in which we say:
*Priest: Lift up your hearts.
People: We lift them up to the Lord.
Priest: Let us give thanks to the Lord, our God
People: It is right and just.
Priest: It is truly right and just, our duty and salvation, always and everywhere to give you thanks, Father most holy, through your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, your Word through whom you made all things, whom you sent as our Savior and Redeemer, incarnate by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin. Fulfilling your will and gaining for you a holy people, he stretched out his hands as he endured his Passion, so as to break the bonds of death and manifest the resurrection. *

It is right and just that we participate in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in honor of Sundays and Holy Days. This is not just about us being given nourishment, even though we are wonderfully made so that we gain our sustenance precisely by doing that which pleases God.

I think it says something about our times that we do not like the words “duty” and “obligation”. To do one’s duty is not diminishing, but the way we realize our place in the world. Doing something because it is in our deepest reality that we must shouldn’t be something we fight against.
 
Most churches have many different times for Mass. The wise woman goes out of her way to compromise with her husband.
The wise man/woman Loves the Lord, loves the Church and keep the Commandments,
thou shall keep the Sabbath day holy, please think about these matters and if you are a practicing Catholic by going to Mass, after all its only once a week, that we “have to” go.

What does Lapsed Catholic mean, it really means that you are no longer a Catholic, not participating in the life of the Church, and setting a bad example to non Catholics.

You sound old enough to know your actions as you are on a Catholic Forum, if you are giving advise at least have the courtesy to practice , rather than do as I say not as I do.
 
To the OP – could you speak with your husband and offer a compromise for the next time …say give him a time frame for the Saturday Mass if he wants you to go to his church in the Sunday Morning have him give you enough notice on Saturday afternoon in order to make your Sunday obligation for the Saturday evening Mass? Hope this makes sense and helps a little. Prayers:)
Ok, can’t fix the immediate problem, but maybe the above solution can help alleviate future issues? Sounds like a winner to me…👍
 
I have a definite advantage over a fallen away cradle Catholic. I’m not a Catholic (yet) but I love the mass. I can’t participate in communion but I’m awed by the respect and holiness of it. Nearly every mass to me is incredible. When possible, usually 1 to 3 times a week, I get up early and go to the 6:30 AM mass because I feel spiritually nourished for participating.

Sometimes I think it an incredible gift not to have been brought up in the Catholic Church but to have discovered it as an adult when there was a spiritual hunger in my soul.

There are expressions in the Catholic Church that have been around for ages that just don’t sound right. Sunday obligation and holy day obligation are on this list. Through the ages, some of the brightest minds were part of the Catholic Church. Could one of those minds or a current bright mind not come up with better wording? On this same tangential line, the terms apologist and apologetics sound like you’re defending the church with guilt. I was also ready to walk away from the Catholic church for good when I heard the term “Co-redemptrix”. Rather than walk away, I met with the leader of Adult Education at my church and he explained it. Further research confirmed what he said but I still think someone could find some better terminology.

When I miss church on Sunday, I do feel like I’ve sinned. Does god care? I think so because he wants me in that holy place giving my soul the nourishment it needs.
Your post is very heart-felt and beautiful. Good luck on your journey.
 
This is a distinction without a difference. Are you seriously trying to assert that Mark 2:27 no longer applies because we observe Sunday instead of Saturday? That’s almost the definition of “legalistic” doncha think?
Jesus was talking about the 600+ Levitic laws when he said this. As Catholic, we don’t pick and chose Bible verses, we look at the context. The context was that Jesus’ disciples were picking grain in the field because they were hungry. It was unlawful to work on the Sabbath, even to feed yourself.

It is important to remember the Ten Commandments are still applicable today. We don’t get a free pass to kill or disobey our parents on Sundays!

My new oven, BTW, has a “Sabbath mode.” Observant Jews are not allowed to turn on electrical appliances and light switches on the Sabbath.
 
Didn’t Jesus say that the Sabbath was made for man not that Man was made for the Sabbath?

You REALLY believe that God would have sent you to Hell for missing Mass to honor your Husband and Father-in-Law on the one day a year set aside to do so? Especially if you were attending another service to worship and praise Him (no matter how imperfect and misguided)? How sad.

I also wonder why your reaction (as reported by you) when he broached the idea was so lacking in compassion? You couldn’t have said: “Oh sweetie, I’m sorry! If we had thought of it a couple of hours ago, we could have made the Saturday vigil. Lets do this; Lets plan to do it next week”?

Instead of “you know the kids and I can’t do that, we have to attend Mass” :(🤷

Do you REALLY think that’s how Jesus would have handled it?
Jesus chose death rather than bow to Caesar. The martyrs chose death rather than bow to the Roman Gods. The very first Commandment tells us this, “I am the Lord your God, you shall have no other God’s beside me.”

People chose death over denying the mass, the actual representation of Christ’s sacrifice before our eyes. Makes, “But we’ll make hubby happy by skipping mass,” seem a little lame…
 
I’m a newly-confirmed Catholic with what might be termed “progressive” sympathies (it’s much more difficult for a 66 year old life-long Protestant to have true belief in the entire catechism than it is for a cradle Catholic; I’ve got an entirely open heart, but God knows the truth about what I truly believe, in my heart of hearts, about the various dogma and doctrines). Having said that, I don’t think it’s helpful when people use forums like this as a soapbox to argue against Church teachings.

All of these many pages of discussion can be summarized as follows:

The ideal would have been for the wife in question to have found a way to satisfy her mass obligation, while still being able to accommodate her husband’s Father’s Day wish. Husband in question gave no advance notice; so this was not possible. Church doctrine is clear: she was required to go to mass. She believed in this obligation and made the only choice she could have, under the circumstances. A loving husband would understand and accept this; as her’s apparently did, after he’d had the time to think about it.

For those Catholics who do not personally believe that mass attendance is a matter of such supreme importance, they have an easy option. Don’t go to mass. It’s remarkable to me just how tolerant the Church is of violations of its doctrines by its parishioners. Lines for the Eucharist are long. Lines for reconciliation are short. Mass attendance on Easter Sunday dwarfs that the rest of the year. Family sizes are very small, relative to pre - Humanae Vitae. There is a disregard for Magisterial authority on a massive scale; the Church teaches what it teaches, but is amazingly tolerant of the non-orthodoxy of its flock, in contradistinction not simply to, for example, Islam or Orthodox Judaism, but also to some Protestant communities.

If an individual sincerely believes that a given doctrine or rule is in error, and is prepared to accept whatever consequences God chooses to inflict, then there is really nothing preventing said individual from following dictates of said conscience. But said individual shouldn’t expect the Church to change its teachings and rules to accommodate personal heterodoxy.
  • Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach CA
 
I’m a newly-confirmed Catholic with what might be termed “progressive” sympathies (it’s much more difficult for a 66 year old life-long Protestant to have true belief in the entire catechism than it is for a cradle Catholic; I’ve got an entirely open heart, but God knows the truth about what I truly believe, in my heart of hearts, about the various dogma and doctrines). Having said that, I don’t think it’s helpful when people use forums like this as a soapbox to argue against Church teachings.

All of these many pages of discussion can be summarized as follows:

The ideal would have been for the wife in question to have found a way to satisfy her mass obligation, while still being able to accommodate her husband’s Father’s Day wish. Husband in question gave no advance notice; so this was not possible. Church doctrine is clear: she was required to go to mass. She believed in this obligation and made the only choice she could have, under the circumstances. A loving husband would understand and accept this; as her’s apparently did, after he’d had the time to think about it.

For those Catholics who do not personally believe that mass attendance is a matter of such supreme importance, they have an easy option. Don’t go to mass. It’s remarkable to me just how tolerant the Church is of violations of its doctrines by its parishioners. Lines for the Eucharist are long. Lines for reconciliation are short. Mass attendance on Easter Sunday dwarfs that the rest of the year. Family sizes are very small, relative to pre - Humanae Vitae. There is a disregard for Magisterial authority on a massive scale; the Church teaches what it teaches, but is amazingly tolerant of the non-orthodoxy of its flock, in contradistinction not simply to, for example, Islam or Orthodox Judaism, but also to some Protestant communities.

If an individual sincerely believes that a given doctrine or rule is in error, and is prepared to accept whatever consequences God chooses to inflict, then there is really nothing preventing said individual from following dictates of said conscience. But said individual shouldn’t expect the Church to change its teachings and rules to accommodate personal heterodoxy.
  • Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach CA
A cradle Catholic like me can learn a lot from someone like you. Thank you for sharing.
 
I’m a newly-confirmed Catholic with what might be termed “progressive” sympathies (it’s much more difficult for a 66 year old life-long Protestant to have true belief in the entire catechism than it is for a cradle Catholic; I’ve got an entirely open heart, but God knows the truth about what I truly believe, in my heart of hearts, about the various dogma and doctrines). Having said that, I don’t think it’s helpful when people use forums like this as a soapbox to argue against Church teachings.

All of these many pages of discussion can be summarized as follows:

The ideal would have been for the wife in question to have found a way to satisfy her mass obligation, while still being able to accommodate her husband’s Father’s Day wish. Husband in question gave no advance notice; so this was not possible. Church doctrine is clear: she was required to go to mass. She believed in this obligation and made the only choice she could have, under the circumstances. A loving husband would understand and accept this; as her’s apparently did, after he’d had the time to think about it.

For those Catholics who do not personally believe that mass attendance is a matter of such supreme importance, they have an easy option. Don’t go to mass. It’s remarkable to me just how tolerant the Church is of violations of its doctrines by its parishioners. Lines for the Eucharist are long. Lines for reconciliation are short. Mass attendance on Easter Sunday dwarfs that the rest of the year. Family sizes are very small, relative to pre - Humanae Vitae. There is a disregard for Magisterial authority on a massive scale; the Church teaches what it teaches, but is amazingly tolerant of the non-orthodoxy of its flock, in contradistinction not simply to, for example, Islam or Orthodox Judaism, but also to some Protestant communities.

If an individual sincerely believes that a given doctrine or rule is in error, and is prepared to accept whatever consequences God chooses to inflict, then there is really nothing preventing said individual from following dictates of said conscience. But said individual shouldn’t expect the Church to change its teachings and rules to accommodate personal heterodoxy.
  • Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach CA
Very well said. Thank you for this thoughtful post.

And most of all, Welcome HOME and to these forums. :blessyou:
 
Thanks, Christine (#71)

“Tiber Swim Team January 1955”

Sometimes God calms the storm. At other times, he calms the sailor. And sometimes he makes us swim. ~Author Unknown

🙂
  • Larry
 
I’m a newly-confirmed Catholic with what might be termed “progressive” sympathies (it’s much more difficult for a 66 year old life-long Protestant to have true belief in the entire catechism than it is for a cradle Catholic; I’ve got an entirely open heart, but God knows the truth about what I truly believe, in my heart of hearts, about the various dogma and doctrines). Having said that, I don’t think it’s helpful when people use forums like this as a soapbox to argue against Church teachings.

All of these many pages of discussion can be summarized as follows:

The ideal would have been for the wife in question to have found a way to satisfy her mass obligation, while still being able to accommodate her husband’s Father’s Day wish. Husband in question gave no advance notice; so this was not possible. Church doctrine is clear: she was required to go to mass. She believed in this obligation and made the only choice she could have, under the circumstances. A loving husband would understand and accept this; as her’s apparently did, after he’d had the time to think about it.

For those Catholics who do not personally believe that mass attendance is a matter of such supreme importance, they have an easy option. Don’t go to mass. It’s remarkable to me just how tolerant the Church is of violations of its doctrines by its parishioners. Lines for the Eucharist are long. Lines for reconciliation are short. Mass attendance on Easter Sunday dwarfs that the rest of the year. Family sizes are very small, relative to pre - Humanae Vitae. There is a disregard for Magisterial authority on a massive scale; the Church teaches what it teaches, but is amazingly tolerant of the non-orthodoxy of its flock, in contradistinction not simply to, for example, Islam or Orthodox Judaism, but also to some Protestant communities.

If an individual sincerely believes that a given doctrine or rule is in error, and is prepared to accept whatever consequences God chooses to inflict, then there is really nothing preventing said individual from following dictates of said conscience. But said individual shouldn’t expect the Church to change its teachings and rules to accommodate personal heterodoxy.
  • Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach CA
What a thoughtful post.
 
…For those Catholics who do not personally believe that mass attendance is a matter of such supreme importance, they have an easy option. Don’t go to mass…Lines for the Eucharist are long. Lines for reconciliation are short… …
Ay, ay, ay!! Not quite. :eek:
(CCC: underline mine):

***Hope **
2090 When God reveals Himself and calls him, man cannot fully respond to the divine love by his own powers. He must hope that God will give him the capacity to love Him in return and to act in conformity with the commandments of charity. Hope is the confident expectation of divine blessing and the beatific vision of God; it is also the fear of offending God’s love and of incurring punishment.

**2091 **The first commandment is also concerned with sins against hope, namely, despair and presumption:

By despair, man ceases to hope for his personal salvation from God, for help in attaining it or for the forgiveness of his sins. Despair is contrary to God’s goodness, to his justice - for the Lord is faithful to his promises - and to his mercy.

**2092 **There are two kinds of presumption. Either man presumes upon his own capacities, (hoping to be able to save himself without help from on high), or he presumes upon God’s almighty power or his mercy (hoping to obtain his forgiveness without conversion and glory without merit). *

Now, let’s turn to the section treating the Sacrament of Reconciliation:
***Contrition **

**1451 **Among the penitent’s acts contrition occupies first place. Contrition is "sorrow of the soul and detestation for the sin committed, together with the resolution not to sin again."50

**1452 **When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called “perfect” (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.51

1453 The contrition called “imperfect” (or “attrition”) is also a gift of God, a prompting of the Holy Spirit. It is born of the consideration of sin’s ugliness or the fear of eternal damnation and the other penalties threatening the sinner (contrition of fear). Such a stirring of conscience can initiate an interior process which, under the prompting of grace, will be brought to completion by sacramental absolution. By itself however, imperfect contrition cannot obtain the forgiveness of grave sins, but it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance.52 *

It is a sacrilege to commit a sin with the intention of later availing oneself of the Sacrament of Reconciliation insincerely, which is to say with the intention of confessing without contrition and especially without any intention of amendment. You don’t have to feel bad–the Church does not require us to manufacture feelings–but you do have to renounce sin by an act of will when you confess. Therefore, you are not suggesting an “easy option” but unfortunately are suggesting a foolish one. I do not know how else to put it without putting on a sugar coating that does not belong. I am sure I am not alone in this opinion, so I will put it this way: Do not use the confessional in this manner, we implore you.
…If an individual sincerely believes that a given doctrine or rule is in error, and is prepared to accept whatever consequences God chooses to inflict, then there is really nothing preventing said individual from following dictates of said conscience. …
When I hear someone talk flippantly of “whatever consequences God chooses to inflict”, my heart sinks and jumps into my throat at the same time. We are talking about having received the grace to appreciate the greatness of God and then choosing lukewarmness, ingratitude, indifference, or neglect with the attitude of “hey, so what if God deserves worship and I refuse it–I’ll take what I get for that.”

Yes, we follow our consciences, but we are bound to form our consciences properly, we are bound to pay attention to our religious superiors and to discern a conflict between their teachings only after great effort to find a way to be entirely obedient, and we are bound to act according to what our informed consciences and honest desire for obedience dictate, not according to what spiritual faults like pride or sloth tell us we can probably get away with. The OP’s case is one matter–that is, if she were to have missed Mass, it would have been out of an honest desire to make a personal sacrifice out of love for her husband and yet without any intention to indulge in sloth towards her obligation to worship God in the highest manner possible–but you are implying a very broad dispensation that the faithful would allow themselves only at great peril. Do not recommend that, please.

A Catholic who is struggling with a conflict in conscience has an obligation to form his or her conscience properly. We cannot go priest shopping until we find one who will tell us what we want to hear, either. We need to do our best to learn how moral law applies to our choices according to the teachers that were given to us by God, and if we have the ability to choose what we want or to choose obedience to our religious superiors, we need to choose to be obedient. Disobedience, if it is ever necessary at all, needs to be a very last resort, and taken in the face of what seem to be conflicting moral imperatives without redress, and not for matters of “I don’t think I have to, and so you can’t make me”. Rather, it ought to be a matter of “I cannot see how I can meet both this moral obligation and this other one, so I am forced to choose, and having educated myself to the best of my ability about the weightiness of the alternatives, this is what I feel I must do.” It is never be chosen lightly.
 
Hi Easter Joy,

I don’t disagree at all with anything in your post (74) above. I hope that you do not think that I was in any way encouraging heterodoxy.

I was simply making two points: (1) it is a fact that a great many parishioners who attend mass regularly do not observe all important Church teachings (to say nothing of those who do not attend mass regularly). (2) If one makes the free will choice to disregard Church teachings, then one should be gracious in acknowledging that the Church is so obviously tolerant of such non-observance (i.e. attendance is not taken at mass; certification of grace is not required for those receiving the Eucharist; artificial contraception is not a frequent ground for excommunication, etc.). One should not, however, not expect the Church to modify its dogma, doctrines, and rules based on the dissenting opinions of those who demur.
  • Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach CA
 
Hi Easter Joy,

I don’t disagree at all with anything in your post (74) above. I hope that you do not think that I was in any way encouraging heterodoxy.

I was simply making two points: (1) it is a fact that a great many parishioners who attend mass regularly do not observe all important Church teachings (to say nothing of those who do not attend mass regularly). (2) If one makes the free will choice to disregard Church teachings, then one should be gracious in acknowledging that the Church is so obviously tolerant of such non-observance (i.e. attendance is not taken at mass; certification of grace is not required for those receiving the Eucharist; artificial contraception is not a frequent ground for excommunication, etc.). One should not, however, not expect the Church to modify its dogma, doctrines, and rules based on the dissenting opinions of those who demur.
  • Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach CA
I agree and well said. 🙂

Citing the Catechism won’t change the minds of those bent on self-interpretation, but it is good for the lurkers. On a Catholic Forum one would expect correct Church teaching, and not what somebody’s opinion about it is.
 
Hi Easter Joy,

I don’t disagree at all with anything in your post (74) above. I hope that you do not think that I was in any way encouraging heterodoxy.

I was simply making two points: (1) it is a fact that a great many parishioners who attend mass regularly do not observe all important Church teachings (to say nothing of those who do not attend mass regularly). (2) If one makes the free will choice to disregard Church teachings, then one should be gracious in acknowledging that the Church is so obviously tolerant of such non-observance (i.e. attendance is not taken at mass; certification of grace is not required for those receiving the Eucharist; artificial contraception is not a frequent ground for excommunication, etc.). One should not, however, not expect the Church to modify its dogma, doctrines, and rules based on the dissenting opinions of those who demur.
  • Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach CA
You are very right that it is unrealistic to believe the Church will change its teachings because you don’t like them! It sounds as if I should have worded that not as a correction, but as a clarification of what you mean. You seem to have meant not that we should plan to sin or leave ourselves in defiance, but that we should not give up because we find ourselves doing that. Rather, we need to keep turning ourselves back whenever we find we’ve fallen, and not beat ourselves up about it after the fact. Once the deed is done, repentance, contrition, and a desire to amend are what are wanted by God, not shame or self-flagellation. You are right about that!

The Church has pastoral reasons for not going after everyone who might appear to some to be weeds sown among the wheat. Confession is strictly private, the faithful have many different parishes at which to fulfill their Sunday obligation and some legitimate reasons for missing Mass altogether, and people who use contraception instead of using NFP or simply being unfertile do not have tattoos on their heads (as one example of many ways in which people might appear to be in sin–the sexual laws are hardly the only commandments that count, nor are habitual sexual sins the only ones that give scandal!!). We all typically go through cycles of true desire to amend and unfortunate backsliding from our purpose of amendment. We all have blind spots where we think we know better than the Church or can’t be expected to do better than we do. (I think most of us will cop to the later, even if we try very strictly to not indulge in the former.)
 
When I became a Catholic 8 years ago my priest told me that my first vocation is marriage, so do what you can to keep your marriage together at the same time stand up for your beliefs. So for 8 years now, every weekend I attend mass and then go to my husbands Methodist service. He knows I will NOT receive communion or participate in his other church activities. But for one hour a week I sit with him, my sons and their families. And then we all go out to eat together as a family.

I have not compromised my faith, but my marriage survived my conversion. The first few years there was much persecution. But showing my protestant family that I still love Jesus, and still show them love in the midst of persecution, they have finally decided it is my right to worship in another church.
 
I think that it would be a good idea to attend services at his Church. It will reinforce what you have at the Catholic Church. You should attend Mass as well though. Don’t miss Mass!
 
Emotional recoil does not have to precede confession of a sin. We do have to let go of the idea that we are the arbiters of moral law, but we don’t have to have such perfect contrition that we like it, nor do we have to fully understand why those things that are required or forbidden are that way. It is better to regret breaking the law because you see why it is the law, but it is only necessary that you regret breaking it because it was disobedient to have broken the law, because you, by act of will, decide that you will abide by what you are required to do by those whom God has set over you.

Who knows? Those who repent not because they see they have erred but because they choose to obey what those with authority over them require may be more praiseworthy than those who repent because they see what they did wrong and want to do what they see is right. There is a certain humility to it, so it is possible. 🤷
Fantastic post! :clapping:

I’ll mark this barrier off my list! Thanks!
 
Hi Easter Joy,

I don’t disagree at all with anything in your post (74) above. I hope that you do not think that I was in any way encouraging heterodoxy.

I was simply making two points: (1) it is a fact that a great many parishioners who attend mass regularly do not observe all important Church teachings (to say nothing of those who do not attend mass regularly). (2) If one makes the free will choice to disregard Church teachings, then one should be gracious in acknowledging that the Church is so obviously tolerant of such non-observance (i.e. attendance is not taken at mass; certification of grace is not required for those receiving the Eucharist; artificial contraception is not a frequent ground for excommunication, etc.). One should not, however, not expect the Church to modify its dogma, doctrines, and rules based on the dissenting opinions of those who demur.
  • Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach CA
👍
 
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