Humans were created sinful. Then we were told not to sin. Is that a fair demand?

[PRmerger]

If that is true, then the babies do not need a savior. But everybody needs a savior. or so the bible says.

Chapter and verse that says “everyone needs a savior”, please.

(Not that I disagree with you, BTW. Just want to see where it is in the Bible.)

 

[PRmerger]

Same goes for Mary. Even though she was sinless, she still had a savoir, and she accepted that.

Indeed. As has been already stated, God SAVED Mary from falling into the pit of sin.

However since she was sinless, why did she accept she had a savior if she didn’t need one?

See above.

If she was sinless her whole life, then she did not need a savior, which is why she never needed to accept him as her savior to save her from sin that she ‘didn’t’ have.

Ditto.

You do realize she could have sinned after she had Jesus. We don’t know, the bible does not state. But the bible verse I quoted earlier, was definitely after she had Jesus, which means she probably did sin if she needed a savior.

Well, YOU don’t know. But WE do know that Mary never sinned. As if! She who contained the Divine Word in her womb would be stained with sin.

 

[davidv]

It is true to YOU and followers of the church. Not everybody else. There are billions of people who think differently than you do. You will have to accept that.

Not so. If something is true, 2+2=4 for instance, then it is true for everyone, not just those who believe. Those who disbelive it, do so at the own peril. If something is not true for everyone it is not the truth.

And I just said, the way it would be possible, is if God was with her through her life to keep her sinless. If it is true, that she was sinless, then that is how it would be possible. If God kept her away from sin.

Why should I believe your speculation on the matter? The truth is that at every temptation, Mary trusted God and did the good rather than the evil she was tempted by.

Either way,** I’m not getting in a big debate about this** with you. I was just stating a point that if she is sinless, its because GOD kept her away from sin- which is how it is possible.

Since this is a Catholic forum, expect that ideas contrary to Catholism with get challenged, sometime forcefully depending on the nature of the error expressed. The bolded statement seem to indicate that you have no good defense of you claim.

 

[BlueShadow123]

Not so. If something is true, 2+2=4 for instance, then it is true for everyone, not just those who believe. Those who disbelive it, do so at the own peril. If something is not true for everyone it is not the truth.

Why should I believe your speculation on the matter? The truth is that at every temptation, Mary trusted God and did the good rather than the evil she was tempted by.

Since this is a Catholic forum, expect that ideas contrary to Catholism with get challenged, sometime forcefully depending on the nature of the error expressed. The bolded statement seem to indicate that you have no good defense of you claim.

Exactly but the bible does not specifically state that she was sinless. So to think she was sinless is an assumption. Which is why I don’t truly KNOW if she was or wasn’t?

 

[BlueShadow123]

Indeed. As has been already stated, God SAVED Mary from falling into the pit of sin.

Well, YOU don’t know. But WE do know that Mary never sinned. As if! She who contained the Divine Word in her womb would be stained with sin.

That is exactly what I have said 5 times now I think?

That if she was sinless it is BECAUSE GOD DIDN’T ALLOW HER TO SIN.

And the bible never says she was sinless, so it is also an assumption. But considering that she was Jesus’s mother, we would automatically assume that she was sinless because God did not allow her to sin, so that she would be the perfect candidate to carry and mother Jesus. However, that is just an assumption. It would be nice if the bible mentioned it, but it doesn’t. =/

 

[PRmerger]

That if she was sinless it is BECAUSE GOD DIDN’T ALLOW HER TO SIN.

And that, then, is the answer to your question as to why Mary called God her savior! :extrahappy:

And the bible never says she was sinless, so it is also an assumption

LOL!! You’ve made a fatal assumption yourself. Why does everything we believe have to be stated in the Bible?

[SIGN]That is an assumption. [/SIGN] [SIGN1]And a wrong one at that. [/SIGN1]

 

[davidv]

Exactly but the bible does not specifically state that she was sinless. So to think she was sinless is an assumption. Which is why I don’t truly KNOW if she was or wasn’t?

According 1 Timothy 3:15

But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth. (NAB)

the Church has the truth and as such she will not teach anything that is not the truth. In this case the Church knows, eventhough you don’t.

 

[vsedriver]

Exactly but the bible does not specifically state that she was sinless. So to think she was sinless is an assumption. Which is why I don’t truly KNOW if she was or wasn’t?

Fortunately Catholics have more than just the Bible. We have Sacred Tradition and Sacred Teaching Authority. Since the Apostles knew Mary and knew her well, they passed on a tradition concerning Mary’s blessed state.

 

[BlueShadow123]

Fortunately Catholics have more than just the Bible. We have Sacred Tradition and Sacred Teaching Authority. Since the Apostles knew Mary and knew her well, they passed on a tradition concerning Mary’s blessed state.

I see. So it was passed down, but not in the bible directly? Alright. Thats what I wanted to know. Thanks.

 

[The_Exodus]

Yorkshire,

Wanted to bump, since you haven’t responded to my post number 87.

 

[Yorkshireman]

Indeed.

Clearly, “everyone is a sinner” is false, for who could claim that the little 9 month old babe has ever committed a single sin?

A 9 month old baby is not old enough to enjoy the many sin options that free will offers.

 

[Yorkshireman]

Not so. If something is true, 2+2=4 for instance, then it is true for everyone, not just those who believe. Those who disbelive it, do so at the own peril. If something is not true for everyone it is not the truth.

Why should I believe your speculation on the matter? The truth is that at every temptation, Mary trusted God and did the good rather than the evil she was tempted by.

Since this is a Catholic forum, expect that ideas contrary to Catholism with get challenged, sometime forcefully depending on the nature of the error expressed. The bolded statement seem to indicate that you have no good defense of you claim.

It is perfectly obvious that Christians were queasy at the thought of Jesus’ mother having even any sexy thoughts so it was made dogma that she didn’t sin.

The only wonder is that the dogma wasn’t extended to include Mary’s mom and pop.

 

[Yorkshireman]

In all honesty, it appears you are failing to meet criticism objectively. You are simply tossing out a possible answer to your question because “you don’t like it.” Instead, try to separate yourself emotionally from the issue and think.

There is a difference between allowing a creature to go wrong on its own – allowing it to hate goodness and God – and making it that way, wouldn’t you say? Further, if, by allowing such creatures, which of themselves choose evil, to exist, one can bring about greater good, why should they not be created?

God must have known what were the chances of each of billions of people using free will in order to sin. He will have seen that each individual has 100% chance of sinning in their lifetimes and that most sin (at least in their thoughts) on a minute to minute level of regularity.

On that basis giving people free will amounts to making people sinful and expecting them not to sin is like asking them to hold their breath forever. A totally unrealistic and unfair request.

100% of people sin.

 

[grannymh]

A 9 month old baby is not old enough to enjoy the many sin options that free will offers.

Regarding a baby. Pardon me, but it sounds like basic information regarding the purpose of human life is missing. Or perhaps this information has been replaced by pessimism.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I don’t know the percentage game, yet I do know there are some Souls out here who chose to consecrate their lives to the Lord. If they all sin? I don’t see it. Me, I know I sinned and fell short, and am playing catch-up. Can’t speak for all. Do I see Sin and evil? I see it more than I care to.

There’s a choice to be made every day all day long. The temptation is real and exists. Some come to see and understand it much faster and clearer than others. Some chose to ignore Gods will and role the dice and know exactly what they are doing. Some chose not to believe in “or” do believe and still chose to follow lucifer. Some are deceived to believe there is no God and thus give themself permission to be the “god” of their destiny? OK…

All pretty much laid out there for all to see? May be a few variables I missed but thats not the point. The point is…Count Your Blessings!

You have family? Some have no-one!

You have a home? Many Don’t!

You have your health? Many die as I type with no hope.

You find God? So many can’t find that path and their Hope fades daily.

Much Love, GT

 

[PRmerger]

A 9 month old baby is not old enough to enjoy the many sin options that free will offers.

'zactly.

So what the poster meant was, “Everyone who has free will *can *sin; but, clearly not ALL have sinned. There’s exceptions. Quite a few. Millions in fact.”

 

[Yorkshireman]

'zactly.

So what the poster meant was, “Everyone who has free will *can *sin; but, clearly not ALL have sinned. There’s exceptions. Quite a few. Millions in fact.”

Seeing as it is impossible to know people’s thoughts you cannot possibly say anyone hasn’t sinned never mind millions.

Before you mention - yawn - Mary again the same goes for her. The bible doesn’t say she was sinless and the people who knew her couldn’t know what sinful thoughts she had.

 

[PRmerger]

Seeing as it is impossible to know people’s thoughts you cannot possibly say anyone hasn’t sinned never mind millions.

There’s millions (and, actually, over the course of human existence, billions) of babies, aren’t there?

 

[PRmerger]

The bible doesn’t say she was sinless

So what?

 

[Yorkshireman]

There’s millions (and, actually, over the course of human existence, billions) of babies, aren’t there?

They’ll get around to sinning when they’re older.