Humans were created sinful. Then we were told not to sin. Is that a fair demand?

[PRmerger]

They’ll get around to sinning when they’re older.

Perhaps.

Right now, (at this very moment!) there are millions of human beings who have not sinned, and have never sinned in their life. To wit: babies, those with Down syndrome, those with Williams syndrome, those with severe encephalopathy, etc etc etc.

Thus, ALL have sinned, as mentioned in the Bible is an “all with exceptions”.

I’m just sayin’

 

[grannymh]

They’ll get around to sinning when they’re older.

Major or minor?

 

[fons_vitae]

Mary was never sinless. Only somebody who doesn’t read the bible would think that.

The bible is clear every human sinned except for Jesus.

Mary even SAID that she needed a savior, which she did. She is human just like you and me.

She was not perfect, and she was not sinless. Everybody knows that.

cough coughCATHOLIC FORUMcough cough

We might take issue with you on that.

Thou art all fair, my love; there is no spot in thee. Song 4:7

 

[fons_vitae]

However, that is just an assumption. It would be nice if the bible mentioned it, but it doesn’t. =/

Who do you think compiled the Bible? Once I realized it was the Church, that cinched it for me.

 

[BlueShadow123]

Who do you think compiled the Bible? Once I realized it was the Church, that cinched it for me.

I do not care who compiled the bible. That has nothing to do with the fact that it is not mentioned in the bible about Mary being sinless.

Actually, shes not even mentioned that much in the bible.

In response to your other post:

If you have a problem with me who is a christian, then I hope you don’t run into the many atheists on these forums.

 

[BlueShadow123]

cough coughCATHOLIC FORUMcough cough

We might take issue with you on that.

Thou art all fair, my love; there is no spot in thee. Song 4:7

If you have a problem with me who is a christian, then I hope you don’t run into the many atheists on these forums.

 

[Yorkshireman]

Perhaps.

Right now, (at this very moment!) there are millions of human beings who have not sinned, and have never sinned in their life. To wit: babies, those with Down syndrome, those with Williams syndrome, those with severe encephalopathy, etc etc etc.

Thus, ALL have sinned, as mentioned in the Bible is an “all with exceptions”.

I’m just sayin’

You know what babies, Down Syndrome kids, and other unfortunates you mentioned have in common?

*They don’t have free will. * To have free will is to sin.

Thanks for making my point for me.

 

[jericho777]

If ALL have not sinned they DO NOT fall short of the glory of God. By biblical definition they are righteous enough then to go to heaven by their own righteousness. That is unscriptural. David said “In sin I was conceived.”This is a byproduct of the fall of Adam and encompasses the human condition. No matter how innocent or sinless a person may seem they are hopelessly lost with the stain of original sin. According to scripture Jesus is the only one without original sin because He was conceived by the Holy Spirit. Paternity determines ones sin nature.

Now for the good news. It is God who calls and it is God who wills to totally and completely save those He has chosen apart from whom they are or what they have done. No one is ever good enough to go to heaven that’s why Jesus came to reconcile men back to God. He is the only way. Do you trust God to save you or are you trying to save yourselves?

 

[TimothyH]

…and the human always sins.

Oh yea? Says who???

Job was “Blameless”

Mary did not sin.

Zechariah and his wife Elizabeth were “Righteous in the eyes of God, observing all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blamelessly.”

Just like his mother and father, John the Baptist was “Full of the Holy Spirit even from his mother’s womb.”

-Tim-

 

[Betterave]

Humans were created sinful. Then we were told not to sin. Is it a realistic demand given that we were designed as sinful beings to expect us not to sin?

In other words:
Humans are born with innate inclinations towards sin, innate self-destructive tendencies. Then they were told that they need not remain enslaved to these inclinations, that they could be saved from them by their cooperation with the grace of God and freed from their self-destructive tendencies. Is it reasonable to demand such cooperation?

And the obvious answer to your question: Yes.

 

[Betterave]

I do not care who compiled the bible. That has nothing to do with the fact that it is not mentioned in the bible about Mary being sinless.

Actually, shes not even mentioned that much in the bible.

This is off-topic , but anyway: How much reading have you done on Mary? Can you name some of the books you’ve read explaining the Catholic perspective on Mary?

 

[TimothyH]

If ALL have not sinned they DO NOT fall short of the glory of God.

No doubt a reference to Roman’s 3:23. A few verses earlier Paul also wrote,

as it is written: "There is no one just, not one, there is no one who understands, there is no one who seeks God. All have gone astray; all alike are worthless; there is not one who does good, (there is not) even one. (Romans 3:10-12)
OK, so Paul said it. All have sinnned. Notice however, that it says “As it is written”. Paul was actually quoting Psalm 14…

Fools say in their hearts, “There is no God.” Their deeds are loathsome and corrupt; not one does what is right. The LORD looks down from heaven upon the human race, To see if even one is wise, if even one seeks God. All have gone astray; all alike are perverse. Not one does what is right, not even one. (Psalm 14:1-3)
This would seem to indicate that you might be correct, except that verse 5 states,

They have good reason, then, to fear; God is with the company of the just. (Psalm 14:5)
So there are sinners, loathsome and corrup, all of whome have gone astray, and there is the “Company of the just”!

So Paul was not talking about all menas sinners. In his quote of Pslam 14, we see that he was talking about all sinners and must necessarily be excluding the “Company of the just”.

-Tim-

 

[jericho777]

Oh yea? Says who???

Job was “Blameless”

Mary did not sin.

Zechariah and his wife Elizabeth were “Righteous in the eyes of God, observing all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blamelessly.”

Just like his mother and father, John the Baptist was “Full of the Holy Spirit even from his mother’s womb.”

-Tim-

So do you believe then they went to heaven because they were NOT sinners? And didn’t need the blood of Jesus to enter in?

 

[grannymh]

You know what babies, Down Syndrome kids, and other unfortunates you mentioned have in common?

*They don’t have free will. *To have free will is to sin.

Thanks for making my point for me.

“To have free will is to sin” is not a Catholic teaching.

You have just made me extremely happy and grateful to be a Catholic with a way, way better understanding of free will.

I truly wish I could share my peace with you.

 

[jericho777]

No doubt a reference to Roman’s 3:23. A few verses earlier Paul also wrote,

as it is written: "There is no one just, not one, there is no one who understands, there is no one who seeks God. All have gone astray; all alike are worthless; there is not one who does good, (there is not) even one. (Romans 3:10-12)
OK, so Paul said it. All have sinnned. Notice however, that it says “As it is written”. Paul was actually quoting Psalm 14…

Fools say in their hearts, “There is no God.” Their deeds are loathsome and corrupt; not one does what is right. The LORD looks down from heaven upon the human race, To see if even one is wise, if even one seeks God. All have gone astray; all alike are perverse. Not one does what is right, not even one. (Psalm 14:1-3)
This would seem to indicate that you might be correct, except that verse 5 states,

They have good reason, then, to fear; God is with the company of the just. (Psalm 14:5)
So there are sinners, loathsome and corrup, all of whome have gone astray, and there is the “Company of the just”!

So Paul was not talking about all menas sinners. In his quote of Pslam 14, we see that he was talking about all sinners and must necessarily be excluding the “Company of the just”.

-Tim-

Hello Tim, Is it God who justifies us or is it by our own efforts that we are justified?

 

[grannymh]

In other words:
Humans are born with innate inclinations towards sin, innate self-destructive tendencies. Then they were told that they need not remain enslaved to these inclinations, that they could be saved from them by their cooperation with the grace of God and freed from their self-destructive tendencies. Is it reasonable to demand such cooperation?

And the obvious answer to your question: Yes.

When one really understands the Catholic position on the purpose of human beings and the reality of their human nature which is rational/corporeal; spirit/matter; spiritual soul/material body, then it will be easy to see why the OP is off base.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

I do not care who compiled the bible. That has nothing to do with the fact that it is not mentioned in the bible about Mary being sinless.

Actually, shes not even mentioned that much in the bible.

Looking at your other posts, I must advise you: be careful what you are saying on a Catholic forum. If you have questions about some things you may not understand, there are nice apologists and faithful Catholics who are happy and ready to help you - just say the word. But don’t imply something is true because you said it or your understanding of Scriptures has said it. This won’t help you in discussions.

If Mary was just like the rest of us, sinful, she would not be the Mother of God, the Ark of the New Covenant, or the New Eve. Early Christian believers always associated Mary with Jesus in the divine plan. She, the “new Eve,” cooperated with Christ, the “new Adam.” Without Mary’s “yes,” there could not have been a Savior. She had to be preserved from sin, so that she could play her role in our salvation.

Now, obviously, this is a difficult concept to understand, and my small explanation is a chopped view of it. I was born into believing this concept and had my whole life to try and grasp it. I suggest you get some reading material that will help you, or go to the Ask An Apologist section (as I am not an apologist), to bring your questions as they grow. God bless you in your journey learning more about the Faith.

*"We firmly believe that from the first moment of her conception Mary was free of all sin, including Original Sin, by a special favor of almighty God. The Archangel Gabriel recognized her as “full of grace,” “blessed among women” and “one with the Lord.” Mary had been chosen to be the Mother of our savior. By the power of the Holy Spirit, she conceived our Lord Jesus Christ, and through her, true God became also man, “The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.” *
~Fr William Saunders

 

[Betterave]

Don’t be daft. It’s catholic teaching that she was sinless. That’s all. Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t believe the Protestant churches teach that.

Yes, it is the catholic (universal) teaching - Catholic and Orthodox (i.e., everyone with real connections to apostolic teachings and authority), and many Protestants - including Martin Luther - all teach that Mary was sinless. Obviously many modern protestant sects have departed from the traditional universal Christian teaching, but so what?

 

[fons_vitae]

I do not care who compiled the bible. That has nothing to do with the fact that it is not mentioned in the bible about Mary being sinless.

Actually, it does. Why else do you think Christians of all stripes compare and scrutinize different translations done at different time periods?

Actually, shes not even mentioned that much in the bible.

The Bible also doesn’t set itself up as an infallible guide, nor did the early Christians have an entirely assembled Bible until Catholic councils decreed it so. I don’t see the Trinity mentioned in the Bible either.

In response to your other post:

If you have a problem with me who is a christian, then I hope you don’t run into the many atheists on these forums.

Just questioning your assumptions, friend. And yes, I’ve run into atheists and neopagans here.

 

[davidv]

It is perfectly obvious that Christians were queasy at the thought of Jesus’ mother having even any sexy thoughts so it was made dogma that she didn’t sin.

Nonsense. No quesiness required. Why submit a strawman to be torn down? It does not make your case.

The only wonder is that the dogma wasn’t extended to include Mary’s mom and pop.

There is no wonder required. Mary’s condition was the result of a special act of God that was fitting for the role God asked her to play in the salvation of mankind.