Humans were created sinful. Then we were told not to sin. Is that a fair demand?

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Yorkshireman

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Humans were created sinful. Then we were told not to sin. Is it a realistic demand given that we were designed as sinful beings to expect us not to sin?
 
God knowing the future will have known that humans were always going to sin. It’s a design fault.
 
If a new car was designed and the first 50,000 sold all blew up at 30 miles an hour the car would be withdrawn from sale. No one would buy it thinking the car only had the “potential” to fail. Car buyers would all say the car had a design fault.
 
Yorkshireman said:
If a new car was designed and the first 50,000 sold all blew up at 30 miles an hour the car would be withdrawn from sale. No one would buy it thinking the car only had the “potential” to fail. Car buyers would all say the car had a design fault.
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Ok, but how does this apply?

Do you believe humans were created good? Or inevitably sinful? Or what?

Feel free to share any Scriptural or Traditional Catholic teaching to support your thoughts.

Thanks.
 
God, with his ability to see the future, will have seen that everyone of his humans would sin. If he didn’t like that he would have changed the design.
 
Yorkshireman said:
It’s just common sense. If God didn’t like his blueprint for humans he’d have changed it.
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Thanks.

There are many who suggest the Catholic Church does not teach, authoritatively, on “common sense.” For better or worse.

Right?

So, is your claim based on “common sense” or Catholic teaching?

That’s all I ask.
 
Yorkshireman said:
Humans were created sinful. Then we were told not to sin. Is it a realistic demand given that we were designed as sinful beings to expect us not to sin?
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Who said humans were created sinful !!!

GOD created us perfect but Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree which turned us into different species (aka. sinners)…
 
Yorkshireman said:
Humans were created sinful. Then we were told not to sin. Is it a realistic demand given that we were designed as sinful beings to expect us not to sin?
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Whether we were “created sinful” or whether God knew we would sin, and went ahead anyway is irrelevant to the discussion. Either way, as you claim, God knew about it.

And of course you are right.

Suppose there was an extremely rich man - a billionaire for example, and he wanted to show his love for someone. It would not cost him much if he gave that person a million dollars - that would demand about as much sacrifice for him as us giving our kids a few dollars out of our wallet.

But to take someone’s place who’d been sentenced for execution? Now that would cost him something, particularly if the cost was execution by crucifixion.

I think you’re right in that God went ahead and made the human race, all the while knowing that it would cost Him His life on the cross, due to the human race’s fallibility.

He made spiritual beings on the same basis, knowing full well that Satan and others would rebel. But He did not offer any salvation for them - as the CCC puts it, their decision was irrevocable.

And I think it was part of His plan.

He is also offering us eternal life. That’s the other side of the story. In fact, we’ve all got eternal life. It’s a case of where we spend it - Heaven on God’s terms, or Hell on our terms.

I have a bit of a personal query regarding this topic myself. I’ve often mentioned on this forum that on the night my father died, he appeared in my room. He started with an apology, we argued and conversed and then he dissappeared with one almighty scream.

However during the discussion, he blurted out at one stage, “I always was dooomed! I didn’t really have any choice!” I argued back saying that couldn’t be right (and I was an atheist at the time incidentally). He replied, “Oh, it’s right, all right. You can see that from here.”

But later in the same conversation he stated, “I was WILLING!” (to do the stupid, cruel, bad tempered, vindictive things that led to his judgement).

As far as I’m concerned, that was a personal revelation to me, if nobody else. He may have been “pre-destined” in one sense, but by his very own admission, he’d been WILLING!

To take an extreme and more public example, do you think Kim Jung Il might be “predestined” for a negative judgement because he was heir by birth of his father in totalitarian, atheist North Korea? But at the same time do you think he is willing to have all the benefits this gives him in this life, at the expense of his eternal life?

I think when you answer that question honestly, you’ll find the human race is in a similar predicament. We’re WILLING to be sinful, whether God knew about it n advance or not. I think He did, and went ahead with it anyway.
 
Sam_777 said:
Who said humans were created sinful !!!

GOD created us perfect but Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree which turned us into different species (aka. sinners)…
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Well as God can see perfectly into the future he knew Adam and Eve were going to do that. Also for many Catholics that forbidden fruit thing is just a story.
 
Bob_Crowley said:
**We’re WILLING to be sinful, whether God knew about it n advance or not. *I think He did, and went ahead with it anyway.
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We’re willing to be sinful because we’re made that way. God must have seen that his design was flawed if what he wanted was humans to obey a command not to sin.

He might as well have commanded fish not to swim.

Sorry I don’t get the point or the relevance of your long billionaire analogy. Keep it simple please.
 
Ok. If the Adam and Eve story is just a metaphor how exactly did the Fall of Man happen? What happened so that man’s sinfulness isn’t due to his designer?

Did people just one day start sinning without eating any dodgy fruit? In which case it’s just the way we were designed.
 
Yorkshireman said:
God knowing the future will have known that humans were always going to sin. It’s a design fault.
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This is a good question, and I’ll admit I don’t fully know the answer. However, I do think I have a “fragment” of that answer, when I wondered as to why God created Satan knowing full well that he would end up going to rebellion.

What I’ve read at least is that God knew and knows the future, and that He knew that a part of His creation would end up rebelling against Him. However, God doesn’t think the worst of us, even if it was clear that we may end up where we are today. He always thinks the best of us, even with our predisposition. It was for that reason that God created Adam and Eve anyway.

This also leads to a philosophical consequence of some sort, and could go against your own arguments. If God knew that Adam and Eve were going to sin, and then decided not to create them, doesn’t that go against the doctrine of free will - the doctrine that at least gives us the chance to make a decision for better or for worse?

Thank you,
**Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk **
 
diggerdomer said:
Thanks.

There are many who suggest the Catholic Church does not teach, authoritatively, on “common sense.” For better or worse.

Right?

So, is your claim based on “common sense” or Catholic teaching?

That’s all I ask.
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I think what Yorkshireman is trying to say is that if God is omniscient (that is, all-knowing), why would He go ahead and create Humans anyway, knowing that they would sin. If God didn’t know that Adam and Eve would sin, then He wouldn’t be omniscient. It may even potentially mean that He is not God :eek:, since most denominations in Christianity, and indeed virtually all of the Abrahamic religions, consider omniscience to be a characteristic of God.

Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk
 
Is it fair?

Everytime I hear this question, I cringe!!
Since when has life ever been fair?!

Being a Christian (in my case Roman Catholic), is one ofthe most difficult choices that one can make. God granted us with “free-will”, so that we could make our own decisions, and then He sent His Son, to show us the way.

Faith is a gift. You can reject it, accept and put it on a shelf and bring it out on special occaisions or you can use it everyday. There are always consequences, though. The things that you hide away to protect may look pretty and new for a long time, but they never fulfill their purpose. And the things that you use everyday become ragged and worn, yet there is always a bond/connection to that thing, so much so that you can’t imagine living without it.

When I was struggling with similar questions, my spiritual director had me read the book of Job. At first, it was very difficult for me, I was just not getting it, because it wasn’t fair!!!
But finally, after lots of prayer, and looking at my own ideas of how I thought the world should work, I finally saw the light!

It is the struggle and the choices we make that make us human, and it is obvious to me that God wants us to embrace our humanity, so that we may give ourselves freely back to God. Methinks that if He did not, He would not have sent His Son as a human being.

God never said it would be easy, or fair. But, IMHO, this is more proof of God’s immeasurable love for us. Nothing worth having is is ever easy.
 
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