Humans were created sinful. Then we were told not to sin. Is that a fair demand?

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Well as God can see perfectly into the future he knew Adam and Eve were going to do that. Also for many Catholics that forbidden fruit thing is just a story.
Just because God knew what Adam and Eve were going to do does not mean he is the cause of what they did or that he designed them that way. Knowledge is not causative.

What many Catholics believe is only relevant if it is in agreement with Church teaching. If you wish to know what the Catholic Church believes check out the Catechism. Unfortunately many Catholics do know their own faith.
 
We’re willing to be sinful because we’re made that way. God must have seen that his design was flawed if what he wanted was humans to obey a command not to sin.

He might as well have commanded fish not to swim.

Sorry I don’t get the point or the relevance of your long billionaire analogy. Keep it simple please.
The bit about the billiionaire analogy is to point out that for God to truly demonstrate sacrificial love, the situation has to arise in which He can do so.

God is the billiionaire. We are the beneficiaries. Since everything belongs to God, it is fairly easy for Him to just give us things - good health, the sun rising tomorrow, fertile soil, good weather, fossil fuel just laid on so we can go through the industrial stage, intelligence, creativity, family life, etc. etc. It all comes from Him.

But that doesn’t cost Him much. Feeding a crowd of 5000 and changing water into wine seemed to take very little effort on His part. The sudden drying of ground and clothes at Fatima in on October 13 in 1917 after days of rain should have required about the same energy as a 2 megaton nuclear explosion according to scientists. Yet all God just pulled the ace out of his sleeve, and hey presto, it was done. How much did it cost Him? Not much as far as I can see.

But dying on a cross did cost Him. The Billionaire paid in a way that demonstrated His love. And that could only have happened in a world which required it.

That cut deep.

Hence His plan necessitated a fall, regardless of how that came about. Without the fall, He could not demonstrate the depth of His sacrificial love.

As Paul wrote, “God has bound all men over to disobedience, so that He might have mercy on them all” (or something similar). And how did God show mercy? By suffering an incredibly painful and humiliating death on our behalf.

The Fall was a part of His plan. In that respect He is responsible. Yet we are responsible for our own actions. Hence my father could say, “I always was doomed” and yet also admit, in the same exchange, “I was WILLING”.

Was Hitler predestined? I think he was. I’m always bemused by how a one-time bohemian artist bumming around Vienna circa 1908 for about 5 years and selling post cards for a living could within 32 years become the brutal dictator of most of Europe.
 
A CAR DOES NOT HAVE FREE WILL! WHAT A POINTLESS ANALOGY!

We humans have free will and when we choose to sin we do so freely. God’s decision to give us free will does not logically lead to us sinning. It’s always our free independent choice.

It is possible for someone to be born, to live and to die without ever sinning. God did not create us sinful, it is always our choice.

God gives us free will because He loves us. God could build us like robots and we would live our lives without making our own choices, always doing the ‘good’ thing. But there is no love in such a creation.
 
A CAR DOES NOT HAVE FREE WILL! WHAT A POINTLESS ANALOGY!

We humans have free will and when we choose to sin we do so freely. God’s decision to give us free will does not logically lead to us sinning. It’s always our free independent choice.

It is possible for someone to be born, to live and to die without ever sinning. God did not create us sinful, it is always our choice.

God gives us free will because He loves us. God could build us like robots and we would live our lives without making our own choices, always doing the ‘good’ thing. But there is no love in such a creation.
God can see perfectly into the future. He will have seen that every human being born was going to fail to obey the command not to sin. A new design of car that failed so regularly to do what its driver expected would be withdrawn from sale on the grounds the design was faulty.*

No it is not possible for an ordinary human to go a lifetime without sinning. *That is clearly a silly thing to say.

And if anyone had as a goal the aim of going a lifetime without sinning they’d be guilty of the sin of pride concentrating so much on their own saintliness rather than just trying to live a life. *
 
No it is not possible for an ordinary human to go a lifetime without sinning. *That is clearly a silly thing to say.
Perhaps never committing venial sins–impossible. But it’s quite possible–and many of the saints have done this (Padre Pio, St. Therese)–to never commit mortal sins.
And if anyone had as a goal the aim of going a lifetime without sinning they’d be guilty of the sin of pride concentrating so much on their own saintliness rather than just trying to live a life. *
This is clearly an uninformed opinion. Read about the lives of the above saints and then you won’t come back here and say the above.
 
God can see perfectly into the future. He will have seen that every human being born was going to fail to obey the command not to sin. A new design of car that failed so regularly to do what its driver expected would be withdrawn from sale on the grounds the design was faulty.*

No it is not possible for an ordinary human to go a lifetime without sinning. *That is clearly a silly thing to say.

And if anyone had as a goal the aim of going a lifetime without sinning they’d be guilty of the sin of pride concentrating so much on their own saintliness rather than just trying to live a life. *
Yorkshireman, I believe that you may be missing a fairly obvious reality.

A. God knows everything about His creation, from the beginning to the end.

B. God gives mankind free will, thus allowing man to not only love but to sin.

C. God knows mankind will inevitably sin due to free will.

D. God knows that many will inevitably love due to free will.

E. Due to this knowledge God creates mankind within the context of sending His Son as the redeemer of mankind so that all have the opportunity to be saved through Him and to love God as God loves His creation.

The Christ was not a plan B. because mankind fell into sin. The Christ was the plan from creation itself, because of course God knew that creating man with a free will to love and to reject love would lead to sin, but also to redemption.👍
 
Yorkshireman, I believe that you may be missing a fairly obvious reality.
A. God knows everything about His creation, from the beginning to the end.
B. God gives mankind free will, thus allowing man to not only love but to sin.
C. God knows mankind will inevitably sin due to free will.
D. God knows that many will inevitably love due to free will.
E. Due to this knowledge God creates mankind within the context of sending His Son as the redeemer of mankind so that all have the opportunity to be saved through Him and to love God as God loves His creation.
The Christ was not a plan B. because mankind fell into sin. The Christ was the plan from creation itself, because of course God knew that creating man with a free will to love and to reject love would lead to sin, but also to redemption.
If all this is true, does that mean God is willing to accept that in the entire history of the human race only perhaps a couple million will reach Heaven while billions are sent to Hell? Not only that but is it fair that the man without faith in God but with general morals must spend eternity with the rapists, murderers, psychopaths and demons as his companions?
 
If all this is true, does that mean God is willing to accept that in the entire history of the human race only perhaps a couple million will reach Heaven while billions are sent to Hell?
His LOVE extends to all. However, those “billions” who are in Hell are there because they chose it.

As Peter Kreeft says: “Imagine a man in hell—no, a ghost—endlessly chasing his own shadow, as the light of God shines endlessly behind him. If he would only turn and face the light, he would be saved. But he refuses to—forever.”

God’s love is so odious to some that they prefer hell. :sad_yes:
 
If all this is true, does that mean God is willing to accept that in the entire history of the human race only perhaps a couple million will reach Heaven while billions are sent to Hell? Not only that but is it fair that the man without faith in God but with general morals must spend eternity with the rapists, murderers, psychopaths and demons as his companions?
It is not clear how your conclusions relate to the statements provided.

First, note that the saving work of Christ has no temporal limitations.

Second, please note that the work of Christ was for all humanity, please see the following document from Vatican II for more clarity.

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
 
No it is not possible for an ordinary human to go a lifetime without sinning. *That is clearly a silly thing to say.
I meant its not logically impossible for someone to live without sinning.

Having free will does not mean everyone will necessarily sin.
 
I meant its not logically impossible for someone to live without sinning.

Having free will does not mean everyone will necessarily sin.
Let’s live in the real world not a world that only exists theoretically. Humans, designed by God, all sin. The church teaches we are all sinners.

God will have seen into the future when he designed humans that every single one of us would sin.

People have been patronisingly telling me of free will. I’m perfectly familiar with the concept. However you want to describe what humans are like you have to concede we are endlessly sinning. It’s in our make-up.

If God says don’t sin perhaps he should have designed us differently.

It’s a bit like deliberately designing a bucket to have a hole in it and then expecting it not to leak. 🙂
 
If God says don’t sin perhaps he should have designed us differently.
As has been shown to you already over and over, Yorkshireman, God DID design us differently.

Clearly, we are not how we are supposed to be.
 
As has been shown to you already over and over, Yorkshireman, God DID design us differently.

Clearly, we are not how we are supposed to be.
What I’ve had is a bunch of very varied answers. Everyone has their own ideas.

No one has explained how it’s reasonable to expect a creature designed with “the capacity to sin” - not to sin.

A bucket designed with a hole in it has the capacity to leak and leak it does.
 
What I’ve had is a bunch of very varied answers. Everyone has their own ideas.

No one has explained how it’s reasonable to expect a creature designed with “the capacity to sin” - not to sin.

A bucket designed with a hole in it has the capacity to leak and leak it does.
A bucket with a hole in it does not have ‘capacity’ to leak, it must leak.

Anyway, your argument has come in two parts (whether you realise it or not):
  1. God created humans with free will therefore God created humans sinful.
  2. God is omniscient therefore God knew we would sin when He created us.
Point 1 has been addressed. Free will does not logically lead to sin. We were created perfect. We make our own choices.

Point 2 has no effect or relevance to free will. God knew we would sin not because it is logically necessary but because He is omniscient. God recognised this and sent His only son to die so our sins could be forgiven.

The reason the answers have been varied is because you kept confusing those two issues.
 
I dont think God told us not to sin. He knows that we will. What he does tell us is that when we sin, repent and trust in His mercy and love. He loves us so much that He will always forgive us when we repent and ask for His mercy and forgiveness.
 
*If God didn’t like his blueprint for humans he’d have changed it. *

God’s blueprint includes free will. He liked that. So do I. Don’t you? Yes, we are born to sin, but also we are born to virtue. Take you pick and suffer or enjoy the consequences. Just don’t blame sin on God so much as on the Devil and yourself.

A bucket designed with a hole in it has the capacity to leak and leak it does.

False analogy. Such a bucket leaks because it has no free will. We do. 👍
 
A bucket with a hole in it does not have ‘capacity’ to leak, it must leak.

Anyway, your argument has come in two parts (whether you realise it or not):
  1. God created humans with free will therefore God created humans sinful.
  2. God is omniscient therefore God knew we would sin when He created us.
Point 1 has been addressed. Free will does not logically lead to sin. We were created perfect. We make our own choices.
We were created perfect. It’s just our fault that every human being has sinned. 😃
Point 2 has no effect or relevance to free will. God knew we would sin not because it is logically necessary but because He is omniscient. God recognised this and sent His only son to die so our sins could be forgiven.

The reason the answers have been varied is because you kept confusing those two issues.
God created us perfect but he sent his son*to forgive us for not being perfect. 😃
 
*If God didn’t like his blueprint for humans he’d have changed it. *

God’s blueprint includes free will. He liked that. So do I. Don’t you? Yes, we are born to sin, but also we are born to virtue. Take you pick and suffer or enjoy the consequences. Just don’t blame sin on God so much as on the Devil and yourself.

A bucket designed with a hole in it has the capacity to leak and leak it does.

False analogy. Such a bucket leaks because it has no free will. We do. 👍
Not a false analogy. All people with free will have sinned. Telling people not to sin is no more successful than holding water in a leaky bucket.
 
I dont think God told us not to sin. He knows that we will. What he does tell us is that when we sin, repent and trust in His mercy and love. He loves us so much that He will always forgive us when we repent and ask for His mercy and forgiveness.
John 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more lest a worse thing come unto thee.
 
*Telling people not to sin is no more successful than holding water in a leaky bucket. *

Still a false analogy. A leaking bucket cannot choose not to leak. A human can choose not to sin.
 
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