Humans were created sinful. Then we were told not to sin. Is that a fair demand?

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grannymh said:
When trying to find a reasonable explanation, one must figure out what humans were designed for in the first place.
The purpose of a bucket is to carry water. What is the designed purpose of a human?
What if the purpose of a bucket is to carry frozen water, then why the fuss over an impossible leak? So, then what is the designed purpose of a human.
What if the purpose of a bucket is to act as head gear, then why bring up the subject of water?

The question is still – what is the designed purpose of a human?
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I have no idea what you’re going on about with your contorted answer and I doubt you know either.
 
vsedriver said:
Therefore if you can prove that there is at least one perfectly sinless human being your argument will be false.

the Virgin Mary, was sinless, therefore disproving your your theory.
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Don’t be daft. It’s catholic teaching that she was sinless. That’s all. Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t believe the Protestant churches teach that.
 
The_Exodus said:
This is a good question. I would ask you, however, to think objectively about your objection. Be open minded to other opinions. Consider that you may very well be wrong, despite your emotions at the moment which seem to be accusing God of injustice.

God indeed created man, as well as Lucifer and all the evil angels, knowing they would all sin. Further, he created them all knowing that, should he create them, certain ones would suffer reprobation and eternal punishment.*

But that does not mean God caused them to sin. As St. Thomas says, God neither wills evil to be done, nor wills it not to be done, but permits it to be done. Why? To bring about a greater good. God is not bound to hold a defective will in a state of innocent existence. He may certainly do so, if he pleases, but he is not bound to.

Again, I don’t see how it follows that, simply because man “went bad” (just like your car analogy), that God therefore “made” him bad. He certainly permitted him to become bad, but to permit is not to make. It also seems to me – as well as St. Thomas – that God could not logically make a being naturally impeccable (see dhspriory.org/thomas/QDdeVer24.htm). He may indeed hold it in an impeccable state supernaturally, as in the case of Mary, but he cannot make it impeccable by its own nature. So to ask why God did not create mankind naturally unable to do evil is to ask why God did not create an intrinsic impossibility, like asking why he did not create a round square, or two right hands, etc. Perhaps you could be more specific concerning where you feel God to blame?*

These are good questions though. I only hope you keep searching for the truth in an objective manner.
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God created us. *Yet we are to blame for the way we are. Please don’t go on about free will. Free will is a little experiment of which God foresaw the consequences. *
 
mdgspencer said:
There seems to be some confusion when it comes to two questions, God’s knowledge and free will. If we simply say that God knows everything we will do from now on , there may seem to be no free will at all. However, to take God’s viewpoint, he doesn’t foreknow what we will do. God is outside time and in eternity is simultaneously aware of everything in the past, present, and future. God’s knowledge of what happens in time has been compared to a man on a high mountain who sees all the landscape spread before him in a single view. God as He looks on all of time is fully aware in one eternal instant of everything that we have freely done, freely are doing, and freely will do. Our sins remain our own choice.
** So it really isn’t correct to say that God foreknew we would sin when he created mankind. God doesn’t foreknow anything, as if he lives in time foreseeing the future. God does not live in time at all.
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I don’t think what you say is official catholic teaching. It’s my understanding that as well as being all-powerful and all-good, the church says God is omniscient. That means he knows everything.*

If God cannot see into the future that would be something he lacks. As God is said to be perfect he couldn’t lack any power. Remember he is all-powerful as well. Without the ability to see into the future I don’t see how God could have put the universe together. He would have needed to know how A led to B, led to C, etc.*

Omniscient. 1. having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.
 
York

*The bucket leaks and the human always sins. *

Speak only for yourself! 👍

Always covers every minute of life. Apparently you don’t believe in virtue? Are we sinning when we perform virtuous acts?

How does the bucket repair itself?

It can’t. But man can repair both the bucket and himself. So much for rank materialism.
 
Yorkshireman said:
God created us. *Yet we are to blame for the way we are. Please don’t go on about free will. Free will is a little experiment of which God foresaw the consequences. *
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In all honesty, it appears you are failing to meet criticism objectively. You are simply tossing out a possible answer to your question because “you don’t like it.” Instead, try to separate yourself emotionally from the issue and think.

There is a difference between allowing a creature to go wrong on its own – allowing it to hate goodness and God – and making it that way, wouldn’t you say? Further, if, by allowing such creatures, which of themselves choose evil, to exist, one can bring about greater good, why should they not be created?
 
grannymh said:
One first has to understand that God created us in His Image. We, as spiritual/material creatures can live in God’s friendship only in free submission to God. We are dependent on God and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom. In order for us to live in free submission God gave us our spiritual soul, intellect and will. Our choice is the real possibility.
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Why did he create lucifer if he knew that he was going to go against him and become ’ the devil '?
 
Yorkshireman said:
I have no idea what you’re going on about with your contorted answer and I doubt you know either.
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Do forgive my sense of humor. :o

Getting reasonable replies demands a reasonable question. You can’t expect a reasonable reply to your post 54 without giving a reasonable description of “creature” the term you used. In other words, you talk about a designed bucket without ever giving a hint as to what a human is designed for. What is the purpose of a human being as you understand it?
 
BlueShadow123 said:
Why did he create lucifer if he knew that he was going to go against him and become ’ the devil '?
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First of all, God did not create Lucifer per se. The Catholic teaching is "that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: “The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing.” Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition. paragraphs 391-395. Catechism link: www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
So the question becomes why did God create angels? Maybe it is the same reason He created you and me. Frankly, angels are beyond my understanding.
 
grannymh said:
First of all, God did not create Lucifer per se. The Catholic teaching is "that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: “The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing.” Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition. paragraphs 391-395. Catechism link: www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
So the question becomes why did God create angels? Maybe it is the same reason He created you and me. Frankly, angels are beyond my understanding.
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Yes he did create lucifer. He created him as an angel, and since God had KNOWN he was going to turn on him, why did he even bother creating him? also too, if God is all powerful and able to do ANYTHING, then he should have made it so that lucifer (who he knew would turn on him) would not be able to do anything evil, like turning on him!

Doesn’t make any sense. Maybe God likes dealing with drama. Who knows.
 
BlueShadow123 said:
Yes he did create lucifer. He created him as an angel, and since God had KNOWN he was going to turn on him, why did he even bother creating him? also too, if God is all powerful and able to do ANYTHING, then he should have made it so that lucifer (who he knew would turn on him) would not be able to do anything evil, like turning on him!

Doesn’t make any sense. Maybe God likes dealing with drama. Who knows.
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It is so human to imply that God should have.
It seems that at some point in life, most of us do imply that God should have.
Are we really that wise?

Isaiah 55: 6-9
 
grannymh said:
It is so human to imply that God should have.
It seems that at some point in life, most of us do imply that God should have.
Are we really that wise?

Isaiah 55: 6-9
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Granny, I do not understand many of the things God has done, and I have already admitted that numerous times.
 
How can you assume what God knows? God gave man Free Will, through the Free-Will of Adam and Eve they were invited into full communion with God. They refused.

Man is still refusing. Now its already been told that God won’t change his mind about Free Will. You have to serve God by your own desire. The need has always been there. The only thing missing is the desire.

What God did or didn’t know is unknown and a waste of time, we simply do not know that. Lucifer made it in into Gods garden, we know that happened for sure. But he didn’t make anyone eat any fruit. They desired to be like God and to know Good and evil as Lucifer had told them they would. Through Free Will they made a choice, be it right be it wrong, they made the choice. Just as all will ultimately do.

They knew they fell, they were naked and ashamed and couldn’t look at God. Is this how we should desire to meet God? I don’t want to meet anyone like that, certainly not God.
 
BlueShadow123 said:
Granny, I do not understand many of the things God has done, and I have already admitted that numerous times.
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Me, too. However, I try to keep my focus on the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the seven Sacraments so that I can understand how to seek and reach God. At my age, I am not all that worried about understanding everything God has done or what we think He has done. I just want God to understand me. Yes, I know He understands all about me, but it is comforting to have His arm around me, to have Him hold me in the palm of His hand.
 
grannymh said:
Me, too. However, I try to keep my focus on the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the seven Sacraments so that I can understand how to seek and reach God. At my age, I am not all that worried about understanding everything God has done or what we think He has done. I just want God to understand me. Yes, I know He understands all about me, but it is comforting to have His arm around me, to have Him hold me in the palm of His hand.
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I hope someday I do understand the things I wonder about that science and the bible does not answer. 👍
 
BlueShadow123 said:
Yes he did create lucifer. He created him as an angel, and since God had KNOWN he was going to turn on him, why did he even bother creating him? also too, if God is all powerful and able to do ANYTHING, then he should have made it so that lucifer (who he knew would turn on him) would not be able to do anything evil, like turning on him!

Doesn’t make any sense. Maybe God likes dealing with drama. Who knows.
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One can’t make a free act for God without the possibility of a free act against Him. And to live in eternity with God requires a free act for Him. This is eminently an act of love. He moves us toward the good that finds its perfection in Him, unless we turn ourselves away from Him. Heck, why would someone want to live an eternity with God questioning His motives? Perhaps allowing someone to freely separate themselves from God for eternity in that case would be an act of mercy and love.

In the end though, the dignity God created us with is evidenced by the freedom He gives us in making the ensuing final choice and in all the opportunities to make it the correct one.
 
grannymh said:
Same kind of questions as previous post. And how many times is always? Once a year? Always on April 31?
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As even many thoughts, envious ones (for example), are sins, who amongst us is without sin?

Presumably you have nothing to confess. 🙂
 
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