Hundreds gather in Arizona for armed anti-Muslim protest

[Seamus_L]

There are several Islamic centers in the
Phoenix area, I can’t fault the organizer of the protest for choosing the
one that was attended by Elton Simpson, Nadir Soofi, Hassan Abu-Jihaad, and
Derrick Shareef.

 

[Paddy1989]

Yes. By, among other things, bombing department stores on a Saturday afternoon, and business districts on a business day morning.

So you’re saying that it’s motivation that makes an organization or an individual a terrorist, not actions.

First off the bombs in which warnings were given were done to cause economic damage and civilians were evacuated. When the IRA bombed Manchester they caused such economic damage that it caused Britain to completely rethink it’s tactics to the point where they had to dismantle their anti catholic institutions in Ireland. Many actions were unfortunate but calling the IRA terrorists is insulting the soldiers who freed the 26 counties of Ireland and who smashed Britain’s anti Catholic regime in the North. Isn’t it Ironic that your Yankee militas who fought the British were also called Terrorists. That same milita killed anyone who conspired with the British and some in Brutal ways. You just don’t have a clue mate

 

[Paddy1989]

The modern IRA were terrorists, just like the Loyalist paramilitary groups, and more than a few members of the security forces and the British army.

The IRA were the army of the people of Ireland, nothing you say or do will change that. They smashed the anti catholic regime and now a catholic has the same equal rights in the North due to this. Your hatred will never change that

 

[Paddy1989]

Yes! How dare he express an opinion about issues in a country in which he doesn’t live. Why, that would be just like someone outside the US insulting America with inflammatory terms like “Yankee terrorists,” a subject about which they don’t have a clue!

I don’t need to live in America to know that what’s happening in the middle east is Terror, youns are hated by the whole world now. My country was and still is occupied by a foreign country so I know first hand from experience.

 

[Paddy1989]

You need to step down and cool off.

It’s a simple fact that the IRA, as a whole was responsible for the murder of numerous innocent lives, and pointing at the U.S. and claiming we’re just as bad, doesn’t make it any more justifiable.

A wrong doesn’t get any less wrong, just because someone else does it too.

Well when someone call the soldiers who fought for Ireland as terrorists I will rigorously defend those soldiers. Some will say the IRA of 1919 and of 1969 were different but they were not, they fought the same, structured the same and we’re philosophically the same. The IRA in 1969 was at war everyday for 30 years mostly consisting of gun battles and attacks which killed British forces. Some will only refer to a few horrific attacks to justify calling the IRA terrorists which is unjustifiable as that’s like claiming certain immoral actions by any military means they are simply a terrorist organisation from then onwards. The IRA war was legitimate against a FOREIGN occupier, unfortunately not all their actions were moral and as I said those who sanctioned these immoral actions should be remorseful or they will answer to God for them

 

[Paddy1989]

One thing I can assure every American here is that these actions are only to antangonize Muslims most of which live in and are happy in your Nation. It’s unchristain as it’s sole purpose is to stir hatred instead of reaching out, your pushing away the only people who could ever defeat groups like ISIS

 

[Paddy1989]

Was blowing up Lord Mountbatten an act of terror?

He was a Naval officer and Statesman

 

[Paddy1989]

I don’t need to live in America to know that what’s happening in the middle east is Terror, your country is hated by the whole world now. My country was and still is occupied by a foreign country so I know first hand from experience.

 

[Catholic_farmer]

For those defending the actions of the protesters, are you aware that Neo-Nazis were at this protest? I still believe my comparison of this demonstration of hate to the Nazis rising in Germany in the 1930s is spot on.

Scroll down through these pictures. You have more women with love and peace signs on the side of the Muslims while men with t-shirts that say **** Islam are on the other side. The bottom picture shows one of the Neo-Nazi biker gang members that attended. He’s wearing a white supremacist t-shirt. Are these really pictures of good Christians demonstrating for tolerance?

independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/notmyamerica-phoenix-mosque-target-of-antiislam-demonstrations-10286143.html

Please, I ask again, which side would you be on as a Catholic? As a Christian? As an American?

 

[estesbob]

He was a Naval officer and Statesman

I know And a great statesman at that. Responsible for transitioning the freedom from British rule of 100s of millions of people. And obviously no “warning” was issued He was in a yacht, not a warship when he was killed So how was blowing him up not an act of terror?

 

[Inisfallen]

The IRA were the army of the people of Ireland, nothing you say or do will change that. They smashed the anti catholic regime and now a catholic has the same equal rights in the North due to this. Your hatred will never change that

Kenneth Salvesen, a 28-year-old American in London on business, killed in the Harrod’s bombing.

Noel Lane (28), Jane Arbuthnot (22) and Stephen Dodd (34), London police officers at the scene of the Harrod’s bombing.

Nick Spanos (28) and Stephen Melrose (24), Australian tourists shot dead in Holland in the mistaken belief that they were off-duty British soldiers.

Margaret O’Hare (37), a Catholic mother of seven children, killed in a bombing in Belfast.

Stephen Parker (14), killed in the same bombing as Ms. O’Hare.

They were a few of the victims of terrorist attacks on civilian targets.

Terrorism is terrorism. It’s terrorism whether it’s someone piloting a plane into a building or planting a bomb in a department store. It’s designed to inflict fear on a population.

Because one’s cause is (or is perceived to be) just doesn’t change that.

 

[Inisfallen]

For those defending the actions of the protesters, are you aware that Neo-Nazis were at this protest? I still believe my comparison of this demonstration of hate to the Nazis rising in Germany in the 1930s is spot on.

Scroll down through these pictures. You have more women with love and peace signs on the side of the Muslims while men with t-shirts that say **** Islam are on the other side. The bottom picture shows one of the Neo-Nazi biker gang members that attended. He’s wearing a white supremacist t-shirt. Are these really pictures of good Christians demonstrating for tolerance?

What a lovely bunch of law-abiding, peaceful people, just out on a sunny day peacefully demonstrating and exercising their Constitutional rights to keep and bear arms.

Makes me proud to be an American.

 

[Darryl1958]

Muslims, like most humans, have the habit of backing the strong horse. When the response of the West to acts of violence against freedom of speech is acquiescence, obviously the weak horse is those who believe in free speech, and the strong horse is the one that gets that weak horse to bow down in submission.

While it is unfortunate that neo-nazis apparently have made a stronger showing in defense of Western freedom that Christians, and a little embarrassing frankly that so many Christians are so meek at defending their freedom to be Christians in the freest country in the world, the message comes through loud and clear that America is not going to take the Hebdo violence lying down.
And yes, guns are an American value, constitutionally protected.

 

[Path_Finder]

For those defending the actions of the protesters, are you aware that Neo-Nazis were at this protest? I still believe my comparison of this demonstration of hate to the Nazis rising in Germany in the 1930s is spot on.

You have provided no proof of this. Ever see bikers? They are the ones that were part of the support group for the organizers. They wear those kinds of things. I won’t make the same comparison as you though I could because to me, it is at the best hyperbole and at the worse, extremely uncharitable but I believe one could say a book that reads some of what anorther book reads could be compared to others.

Look at the Waco biker shoot out, one of those bikers has a tattoo with the same symbol as on that man’s t-shirt. Now, those bikers for the most part are being released if they agree not to sue a state. Are we going to jump to the conclusion the Cossack biker who had an SS symbol on them means the Cossacks of Texas motorcycle group is a Neo-Nazi group?? I don’t think so. Personally, I don’t like the imagery, I believe there is a symbol for Outlaw Bikers that is also a symbol that was used by the Ku Klux Klan but I’m not going to equate the two.

Also, what your comparison seems to do is just guilt by association. This is America, they broke no laws. Could I look at the Ferguson demonstration and say, “You know, some of those protesters (probably) have criminal records” as if to invalidate a whole protest. That would seem to be unwarranted. It is unwarranted when a young man is shot possibly innocently and people bring up that he had a criminal record. It is okay to bring that up but it is no reason to shoot the person if such did not need to happen.

So you say your analysis is spot on, I think it is as judgmental as what the bikers are doing and in fact, really does not seem based in reality seeing how so many bikers wear those sorts of things.

Are we to say the biker groups in Texas caused trouble, caused the police to fire weapons because one of them had an SS symbol on himself?

Scroll down through these pictures. You have more women with love and peace signs on the side of the Muslims while men with t-shirts that say **** Islam are on the other side. The bottom picture shows one of the Neo-Nazi biker gang members that attended. He’s wearing a white supremacist t-shirt. Are these really pictures of good Christians demonstrating for tolerance?

So you compare people to the rise of the 3rd Reich based on a t-shirt? Is that what you want? You are offended by t-shirts so much? Maybe we should outlaw shirts. Calling these people too, a Neo-Nazi gang may well be extremely excessive, since bikers have for 50 years or so, worn Iron Crosses, have sported helmets that are like German helmets of world war II. I note, the Independent article makes no mention of this. Besides, that is one person out of an estimated crowd size of let’s say 300-500 but perhaps much more. How great to judge a crowd that size on one man.

For the record, here is a biker for Rolling Thunder, which are often veterans and serve patriotic causes, he is wearing a German styled helmet: cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get2/I0000C7A7o47cQdQ/fit=1000x750/Rolling-Thunder-Motorcycle-Rally-Participants-j149170535.jpg So then, do we say something like he must be a neo-Nazi? Or somehow a helmet is different?

Furthermore, I think if we consider the same comparisons as you:

This place of worship was the place the attackers in Garland Texas attended multiple times, ISIS took credit for the attack in Texas, therefore, protesting this place of worship is the same as protesting against ISIS. Arming themselves is the same as arming oneself against ISIS and these protesters broke no law. We are told, 2 others attended that place as well, raising the number to 4.

independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/notmyamerica-phoenix-mosque-target-of-antiislam-demonstrations-10286143.html

Please, I ask again, which side would you be on as a Catholic? As a Christian? As an American?

The side that does not broad-brush groups of people with hyperbole that sounds very discriminatory, really, so many critics appear to do the same thing as those they condemn for their actions.

Your descriptions really stretch the limits of speech from what I see, one could easily, I repeat say the same things in so many cases.

 

[Path_Finder]

Muslims, like most humans, have the habit of backing the strong horse. When the response of the West to acts of violence against freedom of speech is acquiescence, obviously the weak horse is those who believe in free speech, and the strong horse is the one that gets that weak horse to bow down in submission.

While it is unfortunate that neo-nazis apparently have made a stronger showing in defense of Western freedom that Christians, and a little embarrassing frankly that so many Christians are so meek at defending their freedom to be Christians in the freest country in the world, the message comes through loud and clear that America is not going to take the Hebdo violence lying down.
And yes, guns are an American value, constitutionally protected.

Bikers have worn symbols forever like that. Alice Cooper who proclaims to be a Christian has talked about symbols in rock, he has said he would never use some symbols but others are just for show.

Again, bikers probably get lots of tattoos, I saw one Cossack biker with an SS tattoo. I’m certainly not going to make an absurd judgement of a group of people that that makes them now, a Neo-Nazi biker gang.

I’d not endorse the protesting side, but I don’t think the way they have been vilified on this forum is justified either. Oh, I see the Cossacks also have used the confederate flag in their imagery, I guess that could make them White Supremacists. And there may be an element of that in many biker gangs. Still, I’m going to look at whether they broke the law and whether this is an indication of the whole crowd.

Even if such an outrageous premise is entertained, ACLU sued so true Neo-Nazis could march through the streets of Skokie Illinois. If it be drug use or possible criminal records, I’m sure there are multiple items one could criticize the bikers for.

Let’s see how broadbrushing works:

**
Man accused of vandalizing Mississauga church told police he wanted to hurt a priest**

A Mississauga man accused of committing crimes that targeted a Catholic church near his home told police he was thinking of killing or hurting a priest the night he’s alleged to have broken into the place of worship, a Brampton court heard today.

Iqbal Hessan, 22, was released on bail Thursday by Justice of the Peace Gerry Manno after a lengthy hearing that lasted two days.

He has been charged with breaking and entering, commiting an indictable offence and five counts of mischief over $5,000, in connection with numerous incidents at St. Catherine of Siena Church over the past five weeks.

thestar.com/news/crime/2015/05/28/man-accused-of-vandalizing-mississauga-church-told-police-he-wanted-to-hurt-a-priest.html

So, the protesters in Arizona broke no windows, there were no arrests, there were no laws broken.

Sure, proud to be an American.

 

[J_Peterson]

Muslims, like most humans, have the habit of backing the strong horse. When the response of the West to acts of violence against freedom of speech is acquiescence, obviously the weak horse is those who believe in free speech, and the strong horse is the one that gets that weak horse to bow down in submission.

While it is unfortunate that neo-nazis apparently have made a stronger showing in defense of Western freedom that Christians, and a little embarrassing frankly that so many Christians are so meek at defending their freedom to be Christians in the freest country in the world, the message comes through loud and clear that America is not going to take the Hebdo violence lying down.
And yes, guns are an American value, constitutionally protected.

Nazi’s are acting like nazi’s and Christians are supposed to be embarrassed? What exactly was the purpose of this protest?

ETA: Christians are supposed to be meek: Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

 

[meltzerboy]

Pathfinder, are you implicitly arguing that a lot of bikers wear clothing with neo-Nazi symbols because it’s cool, but they don’t know the meaning of the symbols and don’t support the Nazi ideology? Is what you’re suggesting is that these bikers are uninformed regarding what these symbols stand for? Where did you get that idea from since most of them are not exactly kids?

In your comparison to Ferguson, you state “it is unwarranted that when a young man is shot possibly innocently and people bring up that he had a criminal record.” However, you do not think it unwarranted to intimidate a group of Muslim people who are worshiping at a mosque on their holy day even if the mosque may contain a few who have been accused of terrorism? What kind of vigilante justice is this?

Our own government did what these protesters are attempting to do when they put Japanese Americans, as well as German Americans (the latter incident much less well known), in internment camps during World War II because of the fear they might support the enemy. Further, during the McCarthy era in America many innocent people were accused of being communists, which ruined their careers and, in some cases, resulted in their committing suicide. Do we want to go back to those days of paranoia and injustice?

 

[FollowChrist34]

Makes me proud to be an American.

Doesn’t it? What a phenomenon. Plays into the hands of the liberals - makes conservatives look crazed.

 

[Path_Finder]

Are you implicitly arguing that a lot of bikers wear clothing with neo-Nazi symbols because it’s cool, but they don’t know the meaning of the symbols and don’t support the Nazi ideology? Is what you’re suggesting that these bikers are uninformed regarding what these symbols stand for? Where did you get that idea from since most of them are not exactly kids?

You can make the same argument for those who fly the Confederate flag, it doesn’t bother a lot of people while it is offensive to some. That doesn’t change any facts. One of the Cossacks had an SS symbol on his arm. I guess we need to ask them if this means they are neo-Nazis.

s82.photobucket.com/user/JohnnyGunn/media/Cossacks%20Waco_zpsltcl5xpd.png.html

Some people like the “bad” way such symbols look the way some, unfortunately, have used pentagrams and all sorts of symbols.

In your comparison to Ferguson, you state “it is unwarranted that when a young man is shot possibly innocently and people bring up that he had a criminal record.” However, you do not think it unwarranted to intimidate a group of Muslim people who are worshiping at a mosque on their holy day even if the mosque may contain a few who have been accused of terrorism? What kind of vigilante justice is this?

Well, if we are using the same judgmental standard as others, the place of worship was attended by the 2 who intended to shoot Garland up and some say there were 2 other terrorists who went there. So, this seems to taint it in full with ISIS, we can’t have it both ways.

Vigilante justice? More hyperbole, sounds like the 1st amendment. And a number of clerics like Choudary do preach in fact, extremism. So we don’t know if this was a meek place to begin with.

Our own government did what these protesters are attempting to do when they put Japanese Americans, as well as German Americans (the latter incident much less well known), in internment camps during World War II because of the fear they might support the enemy.

Oh, really, you believe that? Again, to this hyperbole, why not liken the protesters to Dr. Martin Luther King or Gandhi? Bottom line, is that they broke no laws.

Further, during the McCarthy era in America many innocent people were accused of being communists, which ruined their careers and, in some cases, resulted in their committing suicide. Do we want to go back to those days of paranoia and injustice?

The McCarthy era used “scare tactics”. Thank you for your post.

 

[Path_Finder]

Doesn’t it? What a phenomenon. Plays into the hands of the liberals - makes conservatives look crazed.

Yes, we must live our lives in fear of voicing ourselves. After all, having 2 suspected terrorists who committed the deed in Garland Texas certainly doesn’t make anyone look crazed and the 2 more if those stories are true.

I think this place had had some radicals, as opposed to the scenario that is sometimes seen of innocents being shot, they seemed to say try it on armed citizens. In other words, come and get it.

Per what Liberals say, I don’t think we should be concerned with that if the news is any indicator.